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Not many people can attain jhanas

bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
edited November 2013 in Buddhism Basics
Desire for sense pleasures there are many types of sense pleasures which includes sexual desire, it is one of the 5 hindrances and I think it is the hardest one to avoid and as long as there remains even a latent craving (including that for sex), according to the Buddhist teaching rebirth will inevitably continue to take place. and and even attaining the first Jhana will be impossible until the desire for sex eliminated. The Buddha was a superhuman being

Do you think if a human being is able to eliminate the five hindrances completely which includes sexual desire and becomes celibate for the rest of his life is truly superhuman just like the Buddha?
lobster

Comments

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    Sex causes rebirth and deepens your roots in samsara even more, we can not be liberated from samsara unless you give up, and it is all or nothing
    Sabre
  • howhow Veteran
    Many things aid in rebirth just as those who physiologically happen to be without sexual drive are not liberated from Samsara.
    My counsel was for compassion for where you happen to be right now rather than denigrating yourself for being somewhere you'd prefer not to be. One position has the potential for awakening where the other just partakes of what keeps us all in samsara.
    MaryAnneriverflowInvincible_summer
  • bookworm said:

    Sex causes rebirth and deepens your roots in samsara even more, we can not be liberated from samsara unless you give up, and it is all or nothing

    There are reasons for celibacy. These are not them.
    Giving up sex=prostate problems
    riverflowbookworm
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    robot said:

    bookworm said:

    Sex causes rebirth and deepens your roots in samsara even more, we can not be liberated from samsara unless you give up, and it is all or nothing

    There are reasons for celibacy. These are not them.
    Giving up sex=prostate problems
    Thats obviously not true
    robot
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    It has been said, many many times (especially to lay people)...
    There is a Middle Way.
    To insist on all or nothing is to cling to ideas and expectations.

    If you believe there is nothing good that can come from deep abiding love for another human being, and the *natural* sexual desirous response to the person who fires that love and compassion within you.... then you are missing out on one of the greatest joys of Human existence.
    I personally don't believe, no, I refuse to believe that the Buddha was a joyless person or that he expected us all to be joyless as well. The Middle Way.
    One can love without clinging. One can respect without worshiping. One can care without overwhelming. One can be sexual without being deviant or obsessive.

    IMO -- if one is not planning on becoming a monk, yet believes sex is something to avoid at all costs in the name of Buddhism and enlightenment, (or any other religion or religious 'rules')... then one should honestly explore the real inner/deeper motivation for this avoidance.

    There is the middle which is giving up lust and desires and then there is the made up version of the middle way that people make to continue indulging in desires
    SabreInvincible_summerseeker242
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited November 2013
    MaryAnne said:

    bookworm said:

    MaryAnne said:

    It has been said, many many times (especially to lay people)...
    There is a Middle Way.
    To insist on all or nothing is to cling to ideas and expectations.

    If you believe there is nothing good that can come from deep abiding love for another human being, and the *natural* sexual desirous response to the person who fires that love and compassion within you.... then you are missing out on one of the greatest joys of Human existence.
    I personally don't believe, no, I refuse to believe that the Buddha was a joyless person or that he expected us all to be joyless as well. The Middle Way.
    One can love without clinging. One can respect without worshiping. One can care without overwhelming. One can be sexual without being deviant or obsessive.

    IMO -- if one is not planning on becoming a monk, yet believes sex is something to avoid at all costs in the name of Buddhism and enlightenment, (or any other religion or religious 'rules')... then one should honestly explore the real inner/deeper motivation for this avoidance.

    There is the middle which is giving up lust and desires and then there is the made up version of the middle way that people make to continue indulging in desires
    OK, so by your insistence, it's plain that you are not asking opinions or wondering about other people's perspectives. Nor are you looking for affirmation or denial that *your* interpretations are right, and others' are wrong. This is clearly a lecture, not a conversation. Sorry, I misunderstood that....


    I was honestly expecting you would accuse me of trolling again lol
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Cinorjer said:

    bookworm said:

    Desire for sense pleasures there are many types of sense pleasures which includes sexual desire, it is one of the 5 hindrances and I think it is the hardest one to avoid and as long as there remains even a latent craving (including that for sex), according to the Buddhist teaching rebirth will inevitably continue to take place. and and even attaining the first Jhana will be impossible until the desire for sex eliminated. The Buddha was a superhuman being

    Do you think if a human being is able to eliminate the five hindrances completely which includes sexual desire and becomes celibate for the rest of his life is truly superhuman just like the Buddha?

    Nothing at all hard about eliminating the five hindrances. You just have to become a grouchy old man who hates life and rejects everything life has to offer. If that's your definition of a Buddha, the world is full of them.
    Whats your problem? So you are saying the Siddhartha was a grouchy old man that rejected everything life has to offer him because he left his wife and child and left his palace and became homeless and chose to be celibate
  • cazcaz Veteran
    bookworm said:

    Sex causes rebirth and deepens your roots in samsara even more, we can not be liberated from samsara unless you give up, and it is all or nothing

    Your view is according to the Theravada teachings. The Vehicle of the Arhats is that of physical and mental renunciation

    Buddha's Vajrayana teachings show how to transform worldly activity into the path of Liberation. So in effect it is an easier path to traverse as it is very lay people friendly. :)
    bookwormJeffreyEvenThirdInvincible_summer
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    Thanks for that useful information @Caz i didn't know that, i'm really grateful (=
    Invincible_summer
  • bookworm said:

    Cinorjer said:

    bookworm said:

    Desire for sense pleasures there are many types of sense pleasures which includes sexual desire, it is one of the 5 hindrances and I think it is the hardest one to avoid and as long as there remains even a latent craving (including that for sex), according to the Buddhist teaching rebirth will inevitably continue to take place. and and even attaining the first Jhana will be impossible until the desire for sex eliminated. The Buddha was a superhuman being

    Do you think if a human being is able to eliminate the five hindrances completely which includes sexual desire and becomes celibate for the rest of his life is truly superhuman just like the Buddha?

    Nothing at all hard about eliminating the five hindrances. You just have to become a grouchy old man who hates life and rejects everything life has to offer. If that's your definition of a Buddha, the world is full of them.
    Whats your problem? So you are saying the Siddhartha was a grouchy old man that rejected everything life has to offer him because he left his wife and child and left his palace and became homeless and chose to be celibate
    Never met the man so I don't know what he was like. Given he attracted quite a number of followers, I'd say he was charismatic and outgoing. I'm saying that if a monk wants to eliminate distractions like sex that's fine. Many Buddhists believe only celibate monks have any chance of being enlightened, that it's rare to the point of being almost impossible even then. Some of us are trying to pry the keys to Nirvana out of the hands of the Temple monks. It's a debate that's been going on for a long time.
  • Cinorjer said:

    bookworm said:

    Desire for sense pleasures there are many types of sense pleasures which includes sexual desire, it is one of the 5 hindrances and I think it is the hardest one to avoid and as long as there remains even a latent craving (including that for sex), according to the Buddhist teaching rebirth will inevitably continue to take place. and and even attaining the first Jhana will be impossible until the desire for sex eliminated. The Buddha was a superhuman being

    Do you think if a human being is able to eliminate the five hindrances completely which includes sexual desire and becomes celibate for the rest of his life is truly superhuman just like the Buddha?

    Nothing at all hard about eliminating the five hindrances. You just have to become a grouchy old man who hates life and rejects everything life has to offer. If that's your definition of a Buddha, the world is full of them.
    The 5 hindrances are- desire, aversion, sloth/torpor, restlessness and skeptical doubt.
    A grouchy person is far from eliminating those hindrances.
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Thanks for everyone that commented
  • The five hindrances you can see for yourself. In your meditation and otherwise.

    The five hindrances are: ill will, craving, dullnes-sloth, restless worry, and doubt

    Doubt:

    "Doubt refers to the disturbing inner questions at a time when one should be silently moving deeper. Doubt can question one's own ability "Can I do This?", or question the method "Is this the right way?", or even question the meaning "What is this?". It should be remembered that such questions are obstacles to meditation because they are asked at the wrong time and thus become an intrusion, obscuring one's clarity."[web 2]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_hindrances


    I can't imagine sanctioning the five hindrances as something that we can keep ahold of and feel happy. It would be like banging your head against a wall and saying it is good. Experiment with the five hindrances and see if they are wise or foolish.
    bookwormlobster
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited November 2013
    First we have to let go of the five hindrances temporarily. If they are gone temporarily that'll be in meditation and that may be (in the vincinity of) jhana. Then after having experienced that quite a few times, we may be able to let it go permanently. Or, so goes the theory at least.

    I think it is hard for anybody to remove those hindrances permanently, especially sensual craving, but I don't think it is impossible. It depends on factors such as personality and how serious (yet not tense about it) you are.

    I don't think it'll be possible for me but still I want to become a monk. Not to fight my desires but to get to know them better. Then I'll see what happens. And that's the kind of attitude I think is healthy for everybody. If you step in expecting you can remove all sense desire, you could be in for a lot of stress and that certainly is not what the path is for.
    riverflowlobsterbookwormEvenThird
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited November 2013
    This is what the Buddha felt about sexuality this passage is from The Life of the Buddha from the Abhidhamma

    Misguided man, it were better for you (as one gone forth) that your member should enter the mouth of a hideous, venomous viper or cobra than that it should enter a woman. It were better for you that your member should enter a pit of coals burning, blazing and glowing than that it should enter a woman. Why is that? For the former reason you would risk death or deadly suffering, but you would not, on the dissolution of the body after death, reappear in a state of privation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell

    this goes for men and women who are not married

  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Also, while I think sexual activity will in the end be left out of an enlightened being's life, I think we should take a relaxed attitude towards it.

    Yes, I think some people have to let go of sexual activities first before they can even think about removing sensual craving either temporarily or permanently. But others might go with sexual activities up until the point they remove sensual craving totally. I don't know why I think this, but I guess it's a feeling. Although I also vaguely recall something about a twin in the suttas who were at sort of the same spot in practice: while one was sexually active and the other wasn't.

    The problem, then of course is determining what kind of people we ourselves are. It's hard to say. Because of attachments the mind may think in all sorts of ways to defend itself. This goes both ways, attachments to sex, but also attachments to ideas of how we should practice.

    Just my 2 cents.
    bookwormEvenThirdriverflow
  • bookworm said:

    Do you think if a human being is able to eliminate the five hindrances completely which includes sexual desire and becomes celibate for the rest of his life is truly superhuman just like the Buddha?

    Sorry I pressed insightful when I meant to press quote . . .
    I am just so super human . . .
    sorry . . .

    It is possible. Not by next Tuesday. Not by everyone. Not necessary. Did you actually intend or want to be celibate?

    Some people suffer through relationships. Some through not having relationships. Some by trying to be super human, super mundane or superman.

    What many will tell you and have, that may be of real benefit, is that practical efforts towards the Middle Way will improve your being. Apart from battling with our libido and losing, what efforts can you recommend for Lois Lane, Clark Kent and those seeking from where they are?

    You seem to be suffering over this? I would recommend a lit bit of lee way. A little kindness, a little acceptance of flaws. Perhaps starting with your own . . .

    bookwormriverflowInvincible_summercvalue
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    bookworm said:

    Sex causes rebirth and deepens your roots in samsara even more, we can not be liberated from samsara unless you give up, and it is all or nothing

    At the same time though, according to Theravada, being reborn as a human offers us yet another chance for liberation from samsara, yeah? So it's not all bad.

    bookwormriverflow
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited November 2013
    You're absolutely right @Invincible_summer And there is also the three stages of sainthood stream-enterer, once-returner and never-returner
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2013
    While sexual desires (or any other sense desire for that matter) can potentially make it difficult to attain deep states of concentration or jhana, I strongly disagree with the assertion that the attainment of jhana is impossible until the desire for sex is eliminated. For one thing, both in the suttas and in contemporary accounts, jhana is attainable by people who have yet to achieve the level of sakadagami (once-returner) or nagami (non-returner) — i.e., those who have mainly overcome and are completely free from the fetter of sensuous craving (kama-raga) — so obviously it's not impossible.

    When one enters and remains in one of the jhanas, one has temporarily freed their mind from the hindrances, yes; but their complete abandonment/transcendence isn't necessary. One can subdue the hindrances without resorting to 'superhuman' feats. This, actually, reminds me of a meditation retreat I attended last year that was led by one of my teachers, Ajahn Sudanto, at Wat Atam in Woodinville, WA. The theme of one of his Dhamma talks centred on a comparison between the process of building a fire using the bow method and the process of developing mindfulness, and how consistency of effort and the right materials are the key.

    Essentially, our minds aren't really conditioned to focus on a single object for long periods of time and are easily distracted, especially by the five hindrances, i.e., sensual desires (covetous or greed for pleasurable sense experiences), anger/ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry, and skeptical doubt/uncertainty. Ajahn Sudanto gave the image of them (taken from Ajahn Sona) as things pulling the mind, pushing the mind, the mind rising up, the mind sinking down, and the mind spinning around.

    To counter these mental states, which are like trying to use wet, rotten logs and grasses to start a fire, the meditator seeks to develop the five factors of the first jhana — i.e., applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, joy, and one-pointedness of mind — which are like using nice, dry logs and grasses to start a fire when consistent effort and energy is put into vigorously sawing the drill until it starts to heat up and ignites the kindling, which here represents using applied and sustained thought with consistent effort and energy to keep the meditation object, the breath, in mind.

    And the smoke in the analogy is the beginning of mindfulness and the accompanying joy and happiness that arise when the mind starts to become one-pointed, a combination of mental and bodily pleasure that can eventually be used to develop even more refined states of concentration and enjoyment, free the mind of the hindrances, and open it up for arising of insight. Celibacy can definitely be helpful in this regard, but it's certainly not a requirement, in my opinion.
    bookwormInvincible_summerJeffrey
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    Thank you @Jason for correcting my misunderstanding of the jhanas, guess i still have a lot to learn i appreciate you taking the time to type that much it is very informative and insightful and i learned a lot by reading it, thanks again.
    lobsterEvenThirdInvincible_summer
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2013
    bookworm said:



    Do you think if a human being is able to eliminate the five hindrances completely which includes sexual desire and becomes celibate for the rest of his life is truly superhuman just like the Buddha?

    If they actually are completely eliminated? Yes, definitely superhuman!
    and and even attaining the first Jhana will be impossible until the desire for sex eliminated.
    But no I don't agree with that as the jhanas is a thing that leads to their elimination. :)

  • Cinorjer said:

    Nothing at all hard about eliminating the five hindrances. You just have to become a grouchy old man who hates life and rejects everything life has to offer. If that's your definition of a Buddha, the world is full of them.

    You clearly don't understand.

  • bookworm said:

    ..and and even attaining the first Jhana will be impossible until the desire for sex eliminated.

    Jhana reduces lust ( the hindrances ) and develops the 7 factors of enlightenment.
  • Cinorjer said:

    Nothing at all hard about eliminating the five hindrances. You just have to become a grouchy old man who hates life and rejects everything life has to offer. If that's your definition of a Buddha, the world is full of them.

    You clearly don't understand.

    Guess not. However, the topic is "not many people can attain jhanas" with a focus on sexual desire and the conclusion was the Buddha was superhuman. I dispute that. Meditative states are temporary and all it takes is practice and effort and (yes) the desire to motive you to sit for a good part of your life. It's certainly a remarkable and laudable achievement. I don't think that means it needs someone special, a "superhuman" type person, to do it.
    riverflow
  • bookworm said:

    This is what the Buddha felt about sexuality this passage is from The Life of the Buddha from the Abhidhamma

    Misguided man, it were better for you (as one gone forth) that your member should enter the mouth of a hideous, venomous viper or cobra than that it should enter a woman. It were better for you that your member should enter a pit of coals burning, blazing and glowing than that it should enter a woman. Why is that? For the former reason you would risk death or deadly suffering, but you would not, on the dissolution of the body after death, reappear in a state of privation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell

    this goes for men and women who are not married


    I can sum this ^ up in just a few words:

    Religious sexual oppression & repression - and the demonizing of Woman as the Temptress.

    Every patriarchal religion uses it to some extent or another. (Eve and the apple anyone?)

    I choose not to believe these were the Buddha's words to lay people, any more than I believe/d Jesus totally ignored women in his life, nor allowed them to become apostles and spread his word.
    For Jesus to do that or feel that way towards (all) women, he would be judging them and assigning 'sin' where there was none. I don't believe he created woman as nothing more than Baby makers and caregivers of Men. That is Man's religiously inspired 'fantasy' world. (AKA; Bible 'stories')

    Same with Buddha. He can show compassion for men; be they robbers, or abusers, drinkers or liars.... but women? Those evil beings who "make men forget about religion" and only think about sex, sex, sex?
    Oh no, Keep them out of the temples, away from men of the monastery, and keep them where they belong- in the house raising children. Men were seen as 'admirable' no matter what; even if they left their wife and children to seek the life of a religious monk. Yeah, what a 'perfect' world- for Man and his religion...

    This is why I choose to live as a Secular Buddhist. :D
    riverflowlobster
  • The suttas say the Buddha also said women are seduced by men. I don't know by head, but it surely is in there.
  • Correction to my post above:

    "I choose not to believe these were the Buddha's words to lay people, any more than I believe/d Jesus totally ignored women in his life, or didn't allow them to become apostles and spread his word."

    Sorry, typing before coffee syndrome. :p
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Sabre said:

    The suttas say the Buddha also said women are seduced by men. I don't know by head, but it surely is in there.

    This one?
    'Monks, I don't know of even one other form that stays in a man's mind and consumes it like the form of a woman... one other sound... smell... taste... touch that stays in a man's mind and consumes it like the touch of a woman. The touch of a woman stays in a man's mind and consumes it.

    'I don't know of even one other form that stays in a woman's mind and consumes it like the form of a man... one other sound... smell... taste... touch that stays in a woman's mind and consumes it like the touch of a man. The touch of a man stays in a woman's mind and consumes it.'

    — AN 1.1
    But the whole sexual thing is not about oppression or repression. It's about clearly seeing "things as they actually are".

    There is some really good talk on it here. One of the better explanations I have come across. http://www.forestdhamma.org/ebooks/english/pdf/Arahattamagga_-_Arahattaphala.pdf

    This is an excerpt. This section starts on page 40. But the whole entire e-book is quite good!
    THE BODY IS VERY IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER Most of our desires are
    bound up with it. Looking around us, we can see a world that is
    in the grips of sexual craving and frantic in its adoration of the
    human form. As meditators, we must face up to the challenges
    posed by our own sexuality, which stems from a deep-seated craving for sensual gratification. During meditation, this defilement
    is the most significant obstacle to our progress. The deeper we
    dig into body contemplation, the more evident this becomes. No
    other form of kilesa drags more on the mind, nor exerts greater
    power over the mind than the defilement of sexual craving. Since
    this craving is rooted in the human body, exposing its true nature
    will gradually loosen the mind’s tenacious grasp on the body...

    Step by step, wisdom unmasks the reality
    of the body, cutting off and destroying deep-rooted attachments
    in the process. This results in an increasingly free and open mental state. To fully understand their significance, meditators must
    experience these results for themselves...

    "Sexual attraction is rooted in perceptions of the human body.
    When the real basis of these perceptions is exposed, it completely undermines their validity; and the external, as we know it, collapses and our attachment to it ceases of its own accord. The defiling influence of sexual attraction—which has ridden rough shod over the mind since time immemorial, luring the mind to grasp at birth and so experience death continuously for eons— this insidious craving is now powerless. The mind has now passed beyond its influence: It is now free."
    Of course the book is "The Path to Arahantship" and the author is speaking in the context of actually becoming a real life arahant. But if you are not looking to become an arahant and are just looking to lead a good moral life, gain some wisdom and perhaps have a good rebirth, you don't need to abandon sexuality. You just need to not engage in misconduct regarding it. Many of the teachings that are real strict about sexuality are a monks teaching, not a laypersons teaching. One of the important things I learned from a previous poster on this forum, is to learn how to differentiate between monks teachings and laypersons teaching. And not to mistake a monks teaching for something that is applicable for you or for everyone! The two are often quite different! But of course, if a layperson wants to more strictly follow a monks teaching, there is nothing wrong with that either. :)


    Jeffrey
  • Craving and aversion are two sides of the very same coin. It is all too easy to substitute craving with aversion.

    Sex is what you make of it. If you make a big deal out of sex, then it becomes a Big Deal. And as such, it probably isn't healthy because it will lead to feelings of repression, resentment, and "purity"-- and so sex is transformed into mere "sour grapes." It's just the SOS (Same Old Samsara).
    MaryAnneEvenThird
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    riverflow said:

    Craving and aversion are two sides of the very same coin. It is all too easy to substitute craving with aversion.

    That has a certain degree of truth I would say. :) But at the same time there can be a "skillful aversion" or "skillful substitution" employed that serves to reduce the craving, or counter-balance it, which brings the mind "back to the center" at the point where the body is neither beautiful or ugly, neither pleasant or unpleasant. To a place of real and solid equanimity regarding the body. And of course with equanimity, there is neither craving or aversion.
    MaryAnne
  • seeker242 said:


    That has a certain degree of truth I would say. :) But at the same time there can be a "skillful aversion" or "skillful substitution" employed that serves to reduce the craving, or counter-balance it, which brings the mind "back to the center" at the point where the body is neither beautiful or ugly, neither pleasant or unpleasant. To a place of real and solid equanimity regarding the body. And of course with equanimity, there is neither craving or aversion.

    I certainly agree-- but, like I said, it is all too easy to fall into the trap of repression and resentment. A good teacher would be needed I think to keep that sort of thing in check-- as well as the students motives. Manipulating one's sex drive is indeed tricky business.

    Most of the time it really is just a case of sour grapes which in turn manifests itself into misogyny on an individual (and often collective and institutional) level.

  • @seeker242

    Is it 'just me' ? or are you getting a little bit soft and fluffy around the edges lately? ;)

    ( I'm just teasing... with love)
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    riverflow said:

    seeker242 said:


    That has a certain degree of truth I would say. :) But at the same time there can be a "skillful aversion" or "skillful substitution" employed that serves to reduce the craving, or counter-balance it, which brings the mind "back to the center" at the point where the body is neither beautiful or ugly, neither pleasant or unpleasant. To a place of real and solid equanimity regarding the body. And of course with equanimity, there is neither craving or aversion.

    I certainly agree-- but, like I said, it is all too easy to fall into the trap of repression and resentment. A good teacher would be needed I think to keep that sort of thing in check-- as well as the students motives. Manipulating one's sex drive is indeed tricky business.

    Most of the time it really is just a case of sour grapes which in turn manifests itself into misogyny on an individual (and often collective and institutional) level.
    I think that can be the case. Which is why it's recommended to have a teacher guiding you if you are going to get serious about it and do "corpse meditation", etc. as a serious practice. But I think it can be done quite moderately also. :) For example, picturing your grandparents in their underwear. :lol: Pretty much the same concept, just very moderately, instead of "serious business". :)
    MaryAnne said:


    @seeker242

    Is it 'just me' ? or are you getting a little bit soft and fluffy around the edges lately? ;)

    ( I'm just teasing... with love)

    :om: :)



  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2013
    I don't think I can achieve jhanas unless I forget to take my meds.

    Regarding sexuality I have heard that orgasm is the driving force for why people are reborn. Please, lets not discuss rebirth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (unless you really want to ;) and in that case open a new thread or ask me to do that for you) ;)
    EvenThird
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