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India launches a rocket. Why!?

I seem to have started a wee shit storm at another site about India launching a Mars probe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Orbiter_Mission This really bothers me.

I said, in part:

With millions of Indian people starving, scraping in the dirt for food, India spends millions of $$$ to go to a dead planet? If we haven't found any Martians, what makes India think they will? And people are worried about the 23% of Christians in India making inroads into the >75% Hindu population? I just threw up a little in my mouth at the thought of all this.Indian and Hindu sympathies and priorities are grossly misplaced and completely effed up. For all the pissing and moaning everyone does about the corruption in India, somehow the government keeps getting elected in. Not to mention worrying about Big Bad You-Know-Who; maybe the gov't should put the money into educating its own people in their own religion and culture, if not feeding them. I blame the Indian people for their plight... "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". The $69 million spent on this project could feed a lot of people.

(the Big Bad You-Know-Who is Jesus, whom Hindus on the internet seem to be terrified of)
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Comments

  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    I don't know what site you posted to, but it's easy to see why a shitstorm developed

    With millions of Indian people starving, scraping in the dirt for food, India spends millions of $$$ to go to a dead planet?

    Good point there. With millions starving a mars mission seems a bit unreasonable.
    If we haven't found any Martians, what makes India think they will?
    They're not looking for life on Mars - that according to the wiki article you offered. If someone took issue with your statement above, it's easy to see why.
    And people are worried about the 23% of Christians .... [snip]
    What does that have to do with India's Mars mission?

    Going from a discussion of India's poverty vs. it's aspiration in space travel to a rant about Christians gaining influence in India is a sure-fired way to stir shit up.

    Some might view a post like that as a troll.



    sndymorn
  • I think this question should be asked without considering country borders... why should it be unreasonable when India launches a space mission and perfectly ok when US does? We share this earth.
    JeffreyChazThailandTom
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Wrong.
    America doesn't call upon numerous outside charities raising money to provide food, education and shelter for countless thousands of undernourished and impoverished children, while its coffers are bursting at the seams, and money is being spent on keeping the rich rich.

    My H recently had to do phone drives on behalf of charities, raising money from existing subscribers and donors (essentially getting them to increase/double their current donations) for Charities funding educational projects in India. yet India is actually one of the richest countries in the world.

    See the difference?
    DavidJainarayan
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Chaz said:

    .....
    Some might view a post like that as a troll.

    All you need to know is that I don't.

    If you suspect trolling, don't allude to it.
    Flag it, report it and keep out of it.
  • Chaz said:

    I don't know what site you posted to, but it's easy to see why a shitstorm developed

    With millions of Indian people starving, scraping in the dirt for food, India spends millions of $$$ to go to a dead planet?

    Good point there. With millions starving a mars mission seems a bit unreasonable.
    If we haven't found any Martians, what makes India think they will?
    They're not looking for life on Mars - that according to the wiki article you offered. If someone took issue with your statement above, it's easy to see why.
    And people are worried about the 23% of Christians .... [snip]
    What does that have to do with India's Mars mission?

    Going from a discussion of India's poverty vs. it's aspiration in space travel to a rant about Christians gaining influence in India is a sure-fired way to stir shit up.

    Some might view a post like that as a troll.





    I should have prefaced this thread by saying my post there was a reaction to other posts blaming Christians for most of India's woes... that "it's everyone else's fault India is in the state it's in". There is a running theme at the site about how the Indian government is in cahoots with Muslims and Christians to destroy Hinduism and Indian culture. The association between going to Mars, Christians and people starving was my reaction to their "we want our cake and eat it too and we want to blame everyone else". Imo India needs to look within itself to help its people and itself on Earth rather than exploring space. Especially when people are starving, and if Islam and Christianity are such threats to Indian culture. It wasn't a troll post, but rather a "man up, India".
    sndymorn
  • Sabre said:

    I think this question should be asked without considering country borders... why should it be unreasonable when India launches a space mission and perfectly ok when US does? We share this earth.

    The US doesn't have tens, if not hundreds of millions of people starving, sick and dying. If India wants to join the space club, how about putting up a satellite first?

    David
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    I've heard it said that in a democracy, people get the government they deserve.

    I think that's true because in effect, the people are the governing force.

    If we look at Sabres post though, I can see a point there.

    Forget about nationalism... Humans are spending massive amounts of energy in space when we need it here.

    Maybe we could do both once we figure out how to come to grips with life here first.
    Jainarayan
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    Namaste,

    I personally think it's disgusting that ANY country spends so much on space exploration when that money could be channelled towards eradicating poverty, public healthcare and education. I agree with the sentiment in the original post about that too.

    India has developed a bad habit of accusing any other country of being racist when they disagree, yet they'll not hesitate to burn another country's flag, make derogatory and insulting effigies as well as use racism in sport against other countries and expect to get away with it. The reaction to the OP in parts illustrates this.

    In metta,
    Raven
  • I'm not saying there are no differences or that the situation is totally comparable. But what I try to say is that from my perspective it doesn't matter much whether the US fires billion-dollar rockets or India. The fact is that people on this earth are still hungry and that I think only global awareness will finally solve that. Thinking and judging based on 'randomly' drawn boundaries doesn't really help there in my eyes. To me it's a bit like "I'm rich and I own a forest, so I can drive a Hummer". I think the people who change the world are not the ones judging, but the ones doing self reflection and taking action. I'd say that'd be the same for countries.
    KundoEvenThirdbetaboy
  • Btw, I just found out that the percentage of Indians living below the poverty line is 33%. That's about 400 million people. In the US it's about 16%, with the poverty level set at about $23,000 per year for a family of 4. Over half of the Indian population, 500 million people live on the equivalent of $2 USD per day.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    Btw, I just found out that the percentage of Indians living below the poverty line is 33%. That's about 400 million people. In the US it's about 16%, with the poverty level set at about $23,000 per year for a family of 4. Over half of the Indian population, 500 million people live on the equivalent of $2 USD per day.

    It is rather appalling, isn't it? Two of the richest nations on earth and they have those kinds of poverty numbers. Shamefull.

    I've been looking into a trip to Bodhgaya. I find it perplexing that what is arguably one of the most sacred places on Earth is also in an area considered to be the poorest in India.

    The US can outspend the rest of the free would, combined, in defense spending and have children going to bed hungry tonight. People living under bridges. Families homeless.

    It's wrong.

  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    federica said:

    Chaz said:

    .....
    Some might view a post like that as a troll.

    All you need to know is that I don't.

    If you suspect trolling, don't allude to it.
    Flag it, report it and keep out of it.
    Well I was referring to the "shit storm" he said he started on another site. Nothing here. A post like that would cause problems pretty much anywhere, but having not just fallen of the proverbial Turnip Truck, I understood his post here in the spirit he intended.

    Okay?

    Sorry if you misunderstood.

  • This really bothers me.
    The $69 million spent on this project could feed a lot of people.

    Another way of looking at it is as an investment building expertise in a very lucrative and specialist sector of the global market.
    A certain amount is invested on current issues and a certain amount speculated on future issues.

    sndymorn
  • Maybe we can have space exploration and discover new technology to be used on earth. Also the earth is running out of time. We can colonize new planets. Still, I agree we should eradicate extreme poverty FIRST.
  • Chaz said:

    Btw, I just found out that the percentage of Indians living below the poverty line is 33%. That's about 400 million people. In the US it's about 16%, with the poverty level set at about $23,000 per year for a family of 4. Over half of the Indian population, 500 million people live on the equivalent of $2 USD per day.

    It is rather appalling, isn't it? Two of the richest nations on earth and they have those kinds of poverty numbers. Shamefull.

    I've been looking into a trip to Bodhgaya. I find it perplexing that what is arguably one of the most sacred places on Earth is also in an area considered to be the poorest in India.

    The US can outspend the rest of the free would, combined, in defense spending and have children going to bed hungry tonight. People living under bridges. Families homeless.

    It's wrong.

    Of course it's wrong... we're no different in getting the government we deserve. However, we do have social programs that have helped people. People that might otherwise be even worse off. I don't know that India has any programs. I doubt it. I'm not singing the US's praises by any means, except to say that we do have those programs, we do have the wherewithal to alleviate most of our problems... we just don't do it the best we can. India doesn't have a pot to piss in, but now it has a rocket to piss in and launch into space. $70 million could have gone a long way towards cleaning up Gangamaa, Mother Ganges, the holiest river in India, alleviating the disease and pollution in the river, and saving many lives. Where are our priorities? :(
    Chaz
  • Zero said:


    This really bothers me.
    The $69 million spent on this project could feed a lot of people.

    Another way of looking at it is as an investment building expertise in a very lucrative and specialist sector of the global market.
    A certain amount is invested on current issues and a certain amount speculated on future issues.

    The only way I might be able to reconcile all this is what Jesus said "The poor you will always have with you..." (Matt. 26:11).
  • Zero said:


    This really bothers me.
    The $69 million spent on this project could feed a lot of people.

    Another way of looking at it is as an investment building expertise in a very lucrative and specialist sector of the global market.
    A certain amount is invested on current issues and a certain amount speculated on future issues.

    The only way I might be able to reconcile all this is what Jesus said "The poor you will always have with you..." (Matt. 26:11).
    IIRC in context of Jesus sermone he was sayin HELP THE POOR because they are always with us. The bible is oozing with quotations about helping the poor. Just google helping the poor bible. http://www.friendships.org/Scriptures.html

    Prov. 19:17 When you help the poor you are lending to the Lord--and he pays wonderful interest on your loan!

    Prov. 14:31 Anyone who oppresses the poor is insulting God who made them. To help the poor is to honor God.

    Prov. 28:27 If you give to the poor, your needs will be supplied! But a curse upon those who close their eyes to poverty.

    Luke 3:9 The axe of his judgment is poised over you, ready to sever your roots and cut you down. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire." Luke 3:10 The crowd replied, "What do you want us to do?" Luke 3:11 "If you have two coats," he replied, "give one to the poor. If you have extra food, give it away to those who are hungry."
  • The full verse is "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me." In the context of this story, spending money on a space program at the expense of feeding or educating people sort of fits with Matt. 26:11, if I try hard enough to make it work. That is, seize a new opportunity because life will go on as it always has. That's the only way I can reconcile it.
  • I understand going into space if the goal is to develop or improve products and services that we use now or may use in the future. However, the money and resources spent to do things like explore mars seems, to me, pointless. India? Good question.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    edited November 2013


    The only way I might be able to reconcile all this is what Jesus said "The poor you will always have with you..." (Matt. 26:11).

    I'm not sure what that means.
    I was referring to the fact that 'it' really bothers you - so perhaps showing another way of considering the issue.
    The comparison utilised in order to criticise the space program appears to rest on certain assumptions - for example, that the sum spent on the program is a net loss or that such a sum could be available like for like to be distributed toward other projects or that a comparison of investment potential £ for £ yields away from the spend... the list of contributing factors is immense.
    Criticising the Indian government solely based on aid and poverty figures seems a tasty headline and, I guess by definition, politically motivated to some degree but it's not anything close to a realistic reflection of the workings of the global financial system.
    It may loosen the tension of the situation that causes bother to consider how the effect (bother from a firm conclusion) is caused by the view.

    Edit Matt 26:11 - utter speculation but the very next part leads into jesus being betrayed so at the time that the woman put the expensive balm on him (a random act by an unknown person that would be equated to a last rite of great respect) the disciples did not know jesus was about to be betrayed and killed - so they say, 'why waste this balm' - and jesus is like, there's only one me... now the first thought that came to my mind was here is a man who has talked non stop about the poor inheriting everything now suddenly he's saying that there's only one him and lots of poor - has he changed his mind about the poor? unlikely... it seems that he may be hinting that the last rite was more appropriate than the disciples could have known?
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    Maybe we can have space exploration and discover new technology to be used on earth. Also the earth is running out of time. We can colonize new planets. Still, I agree we should eradicate extreme poverty FIRST.

    To be blunt - f**k technology. I work in an industry that wouldn't even EXIST if not for computers. And I remember the speech that accompanied the first release of Personal Computers - computers will make life easier and give you more time for your family. Bullshit. People work longer hours under more stress BECAUSE of computers. Everything is "now now now". Email and texting replace face to face verbal communication and people are connected online 24/7. There is no clear boundary for a lot of people because they expect responses to their emails and/or texts and phone calls instantly. Many companies now have 24/7 help lines because of the expectation of people for instant service.

    And yes, while I realise the irony of this being on an online forum, who's valuable information and community I hold dear, I FIRMLY feel that eradicating ANY poverty, sickness, bettering health care and education AND bettering the planet WE LIVE ON NOW supercedes any space exploration. The very thought of colonising other planets because we expect this one to be destroyed is appalling. If the human race destroys the Earth because of greed and apathy to the Earth, what makes you think we deserve another chance to destroy another planet?

    I'm sorry this is something I feel very strongly about and I think NASA should be curbed a great deal. That money should be spent elsewhere. Period.
    ChazEvenThird
  • I basically agree. It depends what is meant by extreme. Not a good word but I wasn't thinking of making sure everyone has an i-phone. And I WAS thinking of everyone having meals a house and health care. And education and environmental concerns.
    Kundo
  • India is locked in a race with China to become the dominant power in Asia. The main reason is national pride.

    If you visit India, you will find thousands of homeless children begging in the streets.
    Thousands of people in India die from hunger and contaminated drinking water.
    Millions are destitute and don’t even have toilets. So, one of the unique site in India is people defecating everywhere, under a tree, in the alley ways etc.
    But there is a growing middle class in India who has benefited from the economic growth. Alas, the middle class numbers about 200 million while 81% of the population ie 840 million, survive on less than $2 per day.
    So, why is sending a space ship to Mars more important than feeding the starving children?


    I seem to have started a wee shit storm at another site about India launching a Mars probe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Orbiter_Mission This really bothers me.

    I said, in part:

    With millions of Indian people starving, scraping in the dirt for food, India spends millions of $$$ to go to a dead planet? If we haven't found any Martians, what makes India think they will? And people are worried about the 23% of Christians in India making inroads into the >75% Hindu population? I just threw up a little in my mouth at the thought of all this.Indian and Hindu sympathies and priorities are grossly misplaced and completely effed up. For all the pissing and moaning everyone does about the corruption in India, somehow the government keeps getting elected in. Not to mention worrying about Big Bad You-Know-Who; maybe the gov't should put the money into educating its own people in their own religion and culture, if not feeding them. I blame the Indian people for their plight... "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". The $69 million spent on this project could feed a lot of people.

    (the Big Bad You-Know-Who is Jesus, whom Hindus on the internet seem to be terrified of)

    Jainarayan
  • A picture is worth a thousand words.


    Kundo
  • ZenBadgerZenBadger Derbyshire, UK Veteran
    I am just glad this happened because it supports the British Government's decision to stop official aid to India from 2015. There were a lot of people who questioned the right of the government to stop the £280m per annum aid package but the counter argument was that the benefit mainly went to the middle classes and the wealthy rather than the poor.
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    I basically agree. It depends what is meant by extreme. Not a good word but I wasn't thinking of making sure everyone has an i-phone. And I WAS thinking of everyone having meals a house and health care. And education and environmental concerns.

    Thanks for clarifying @Jeffrey. My apologies for miunderstanding you.

    In metta,
    Raven
    Jeffrey
  • The criticism of Indian space mission is truly uncalled for. It has generated more money for every penny invested in it, so it can be understood as an enterprise.

    People don't live only on food, they live on dreams as well. When i see India deeply entrenched in corruption and crumbling under weight of problems on every front, these tiny flickers of hope sustain the faith that it will survive. Secondly, we all know that technology was and is still basis for colonialism in myriad of its forms. Without backing of technology, no nation can hope to pursue independent foreign policy.
    Sabrevinlyn

  • The criticism of Indian space mission is truly uncalled for. It has generated more money for every penny invested in it, so it can be understood as an enterprise.

    People don't live only on food, they live on dreams as well.


    I'll bet we can guess where this so-called generated money will go to. Probably not to these people; I'll bet they're dreaming how they'll feed their children. Maybe when Mars is terraformed and farmed? I hope the children live long enough to get a hot Martian meal.

    image

    image

    I'll bet she dreams of packaged flour.

    image

    I wonder what they're dreaming of.

    image

    Aw... bellies full of dreams. Adorable!

    image

    The compassion for India's poor and starving is sorely lacking, being replaced by national ego.
    ChazEvenThirdKundo

  • With millions of Indian people starving, scraping in the dirt for food, India spends millions of $$$ to go to a dead planet?

    Yes, it's crazy. It's a bit reminiscent of Russia in the early days of space exploration.
    EvenThird
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Every person here is invited to send funds to India to help the poor.

    If you really care, you'll do that, instead of writing a few messages on this forum that cost you zero cents.
  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    edited November 2013
    It's presumptuous to suggest no one does anything to help. No one knows what other people do. And maybe these "few messages on this forum that cost you zero cents" may help raise awareness. It's easy to stick our heads up our asses when it suits us or we don't like seeing the truth.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited November 2013
    I didn't say, "no one does anything to help". I said that those who really care about this particular issue will actually do something that will improve the situation.

    It's really nothing more than that old adage to put your money where your mouth is.

    I'm going to tell you a little story. Quite a few years ago in Thailand I would walk almost everyday over a walk-over to get to the bus stop. Every day there was a teenaged boy there with a terrible facial disfiguration; begging. In most Western nations he would have been in school, but not so in the third world. Each day I would give him a few coins, and then on the last day I was there I gave him about $10. I felt pretty good until later, when I began to think look how little I did...spent about half of what I spent almost every week on a music CD. My ego was sufficiently deflated, because what I had done was like a drop of water in the Pacific Ocean.
    JeffreyKundo
  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    edited November 2013
    vinlyn said:

    I didn't say, "no one does anything to help". I said that those who really care about this particular issue will actually something that will improve the situation.

    It's really nothing more than that old adage to put your money where your mouth is....

    I know what you said and what you didn't say; I said no one knows what anyone else [who cares about this] has done.

    We've drifted off from calling out a national government spending millions of dollars on space exploration, when hundreds of millions of its citizens live in poverty, to placing the burden of helping those hundreds of millions living in poverty on private individuals in other countries. We do provide millions in foreign aid to India, which comes from our tax dollars, and has now escaped Earth's gravity. This has become a red herring.
    Jeffrey
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Your taxpayer share of that is about 40 cents per year.
  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Fine, whatever, pitch pennies and play "Can You Top This?". But that .40/year comes to about $55.2 million. You seem to think that India's space program takes precedence over trying to cure its poverty. And it's the responsibility of anyone who points out the lunacy of it, to step in and help India's poor? Tell me how many schools, meals, homes, hospital beds went up with that rocket.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Fine, whatever, pitch pennies and play "Can You Top This?". But that .40/year comes to about $55.2 million. You seem to think that India's space program takes precedence over trying to cure its poverty. And it's the responsibility of anyone who points out the lunacy of it, to step in and help India's poor? Tell me how many schools, meals, homes, hospital beds went up with that rocket.

    Don't put words in my mouth.

    I rarely believe that with most governments it's either/or.

    My position is that while the topic should be discussed, it isn't as simplistic as thus far indicated.

    India ought to do much more to eradicate its poverty and related issues.

    But a government has other responsibilities, as well, including strategic issues.

    Chaz
  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Sorry, first things first. As far as I can see, a government's first duties are national defense and the welfare of its citizens: social, economic and security. I cannot see how a probe to Mars fulfills any of those. Nor can I see what more there is to say that hasn't already been said. And shown in photos, with plenty more where those came from.

    ChazEvenThird
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited November 2013
    I'm happy that you believe your posts here will solve the problem.

    An interesting article on charity by Indians:

    http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/07/11/economics-journal-why-charity-is-different-in-india/

    Meanwhile:

    http://www.giveindia.org
    http://blog.givewell.org/2011/05/04/evaluating-local-charities-in-india/
    https://www.imrcusa.org/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Charities_based_in_India
    http://greatnonprofits.org/issues/indian

    I am not saying these represent the best charities for India...do your research. This barely scratches the surface of what's online.

    I stand by my earlier comments. Finis.
  • I think it hurts people's egos that a poor country could do what many rich countries couldn't - and this hurt ego hides behind questions like "why can't India help the poor, bla bla" as if space exploration and poverty alleviation are mutually exclusive.
  • Sorry, first things first. As far as I can see, a government's first duties are national defense and the welfare of its citizens: social, economic and security. I cannot see how a probe to Mars fulfills any of those.

    Good point. It seems way down the list of priorities.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I think SpinyNorman has a good point. There is a list of priorities, and feeding the hungry (etc.) should be a high priority. But, in my view, it is not the only priority. In reality, the issue ought to be where different things fit in on the priority list.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    betaboy said:

    I think it hurts people's egos that a poor country could do what many rich countries couldn't - and this hurt ego hides behind questions like "why can't India help the poor, bla bla" as if space exploration and poverty alleviation are mutually exclusive.

    In the case of the US, I think it's more a matter of "won't" rather than can't. I always thought we could have made it to Mars by the early 80's. We had the technology, we had the experience, we had the momentum. Rather than do that we abandoned manned space exploration in favor of what, exactly? We didn't feed the poor, that's for sure.

    There were other priorities, of course. Our moon mission priorities were based on beating the Russians there. Once we had accomplished that, it was Mission Accomplished and we decided to send robots instead of people; safer, cheaper and in many ways better, but much less interesting than a live report by an astronaut on the surface of an alien world.

    One thing we should remember, is the US space program came at the height of the Baby Boom. The country was, relatively speaking, prosperous. We maintained an active, aggressive space program while promoting such ideas as the Peace Corps, the Great Society, Civil Rights and a war on poverty. We also managed to shoe-horn a war in SE Asia while we were at it. We were doing things. A lot of things. Our priorities were balanced and scoped in a way that matched the greatness of our country and culture. It was, I believe, our high water mark.

    India doesn't seem so balanced. They're doing great things technologically and amassing great wealth, meanwhile India remains a land of crushing poverty and there seems to be nothing going on to change that. I wouldn't stand for that in my own country, I can't accept it in India although there's precious little I can do about that.


    JeffreyMaryAnneJainarayanKundo
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Excellent post, Chaz.
  • Chaz said:


    India doesn't seem so balanced. They're doing great things technologically and amassing great wealth, meanwhile India remains a land of crushing poverty and there seems to be nothing going on to change that. I wouldn't stand for that in my own country, I can't accept it in India although there's precious little I can do about that.

    ^ This.

    India is, has been since Vedic times, and hopefully always will be a hotbed of technology, science, medicine, literature. The sad irony is that India is not a poor country. It's half the population that are poor. There seems to be a lot of hope in Narendra Modi, and kicking the Gandhis to the curb. Sonia Gandhi is not even Indian, she is Italian by birth. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Gandhi The reason for pointing that out is that imo, she is not in touch with the Indian people. The current Indian government is corrupt and rotten to the core.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/AllaboutNarendraModi/Mass-appeal-why-crowds-come-to-hear-Narendra-Modi/Article1-1149062.aspx
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Excellent post, Chaz.

    _/|\_
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    Sorry, first things first. As far as I can see, a government's first duties are national defense and the welfare of its citizens: social, economic and security. I cannot see how a probe to Mars fulfills any of those. Nor can I see what more there is to say that hasn't already been said. And shown in photos, with plenty more where those came from.

    If Welfare doesn't come first, who will they have left to defend?
    #justsaying
    Jainarayan
  • Sorry, first things first. As far as I can see, a government's first duties are national defense and the welfare of its citizens: social, economic and security. I cannot see how a probe to Mars fulfills any of those. Nor can I see what more there is to say that hasn't already been said. And shown in photos, with plenty more where those came from.

    If Welfare doesn't come first, who will they have left to defend?
    #justsaying
    Good point.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Why? Because it can. And because having a space program is prestigious. Both the US and the Soviet Union spent a lot of money on space programs even though they had thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people living below poverty level in 4th-World conditions. That's never stopped anyone from having a space program.

    I'd rather a country launch a Mars probe than develop nuclear weapons. Just saying...
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    I'd rather a country launch a Mars probe than develop nuclear weapons. Just saying...
    I'd rather NO country launch any space probes till they can look after the people on the planet they live on. IMO we (as a collective worldwide we) are promoting an unrealistic and dangerous disposable society. Having all the means in the world to get to another planet won't mean jack if we destroy this planet and its people.
    EvenThird
  • howhow Veteran
    I do not think this is about the ethics of what countries can afford space programs and which ones can't (hell I don't see any affording them) but is about the corporations that run them.
    Corporations care little for anyone but their own shareholders. Until corporations lose their sacred status as imaginary legal entities (virtual beings), humans will remain subject to an us (shareholders) verses them (non shareholders} mentality.

    Population problems/ food shortages/ poor health care/ withering social security and the limitation of personal freedoms are just the rising costs of us allowing these adversarial entities to remain as sacrosanct machines.
    KundoJainarayan
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