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"Dirty Wars"

genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
"Dirty Wars" is a movie filled with both hard and circumstantial evidence of America's twisted 'war on terrorism.' I found it quiet, compelling and evidence enough to warrant sadness about the losses the American fabric has sustained.

Comments

  • I read the book after listening to Jeremy Scahill being interviewed on NPR. It's quite a read. Disturbing.
  • genkaku said:

    "Dirty Wars" is a movie filled with both hard and circumstantial evidence of America's twisted 'war on terrorism.' I found it quiet, compelling and evidence enough to warrant sadness about the losses the American fabric has sustained.

    I'm kind of afraid to watch it.... I sometimes find myself spiraling into a 'funk' when faced with the stark and pointed reality of things that are both so overwhelming and complex while feeling personally helpless and hopeless to be part of any solution. :(
    Does it have a 'happy ending' by any chance?
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    What is their agenda?
  • MaryAnne said:

    genkaku said:

    "Dirty Wars" is a movie filled with both hard and circumstantial evidence of America's twisted 'war on terrorism.' I found it quiet, compelling and evidence enough to warrant sadness about the losses the American fabric has sustained.

    I'm kind of afraid to watch it.... I sometimes find myself spiraling into a 'funk' when faced with the stark and pointed reality of things that are both so overwhelming and complex while feeling personally helpless and hopeless to be part of any solution. :(
    Does it have a 'happy ending' by any chance?
    That is one of the major issues in the US, ignorance and willful ignorance which is even worse. Just because you ignore something doesn't mean it is not there. Kind of like just ignoring cancer, what happens then?
    poptart
  • This is a really good documentary by a British journalist following some US troops and Afghanistan police and troops along missions as they try to reform the country. You know, that promise that by 2014 the place will be self sufficient and troops will be pulled out. I like prefer the legitimacy of this one a little more to OP's (even though OP's was very good) because it follows events in actual time rather than most of them being accounts of what has happened. You will see how much of a shambles it really is over there and at what cost? Afghan police on heroin, molesting and killing boys, siding with the Taliban and god knows what else. There is one US commander Strueber who is such a great guy, he is really trying to help and has compassion for what is going on, but it is evident that things are beyond his power.

  • MaryAnne said:



    I'm kind of afraid to watch it.... I sometimes find myself spiraling into a 'funk' when faced with the stark and pointed reality of things that are both so overwhelming and complex while feeling personally helpless and hopeless to be part of any solution. :(

    I know what you mean. Some years ago I started reading a lot of investigative journalism about the hidden atrocities that go on in the world, largely out of public view. I became very angry and depressed when I realised how powerless I was to change anything. And I mourned my lost innocence. Part of me wanted to escape the awful reality and guilt, but if we all keep our eyes closed nothing will change.

    ThailandTomMaryAnne
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Does it have a 'happy ending' by any chance?
    @MaryAnne -- No, it does not. But I sympathize with your unwillingness: Just living life is often hard enough. There is no virtue in getting depressed. But it does seem that events have a way of intruding, whether there is attention or no. Live and learn.
    MaryAnne
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited November 2013

    MaryAnne said:

    genkaku said:

    "Dirty Wars" is a movie filled with both hard and circumstantial evidence of America's twisted 'war on terrorism.' I found it quiet, compelling and evidence enough to warrant sadness about the losses the American fabric has sustained.

    I'm kind of afraid to watch it.... I sometimes find myself spiraling into a 'funk' when faced with the stark and pointed reality of things that are both so overwhelming and complex while feeling personally helpless and hopeless to be part of any solution. :(
    Does it have a 'happy ending' by any chance?
    That is one of the major issues in the US, ignorance and willful ignorance which is even worse. Just because you ignore something doesn't mean it is not there. Kind of like just ignoring cancer, what happens then?

    Well, well, thank you @ThailandTom, for that insightful bit of uncharitable B.S. on your part.
    I feel so.... 'schooled' now because of your wise words.
    Yes, I'm sooo willfully ignorant, like all Americans, Thanks for pointing that out to me. Your compassion is boundless.
    And you know, on my way to taking my Mom to her oncologist, today, (you do know what an oncologist is, right?) I'll
    certainly think - long and hard- about your comparison between my hesitation to watch something, and having cancer.

    ::: SMH :::

    Added: Oh and by the way... my husband is a Vet. Two purple hearts, 100% disabled vet with moderate to severe PTSD;
    I LIVE with a glimpse of war and its reality every day for the last 40 years, thanks.
    vinlynhow
  • I didn't say you were willfully ignorant :-/ Maybe you got your wires crossed, I wan't directing it at you. But at the end of the day choosing to ignore something doesn't make it go away, but of course we cannot take the world onto our shoulders can we. I think if we can make a change be it small or large then we should at least try.
    Nele
  • genkaku said:

    Does it have a 'happy ending' by any chance?
    @MaryAnne -- No, it does not. But I sympathize with your unwillingness: Just living life is often hard enough. There is no virtue in getting depressed. But it does seem that events have a way of intruding, whether there is attention or no. Live and learn.

    I wonder where this is going to end IRL. On that vice documentary it stated that the Afghanistan police after the troops leave will do 1 of 2 things, join the Taliban or leave the police force and form militant forces. Throughout that documentary you can see it written over Strueber's face, he knows it is a lost game, he knows and sees first hand day in day out the suffering and endless problems that have no resolution. I hope he does not end up killing himself as it stated many of the people in his position have ended up doing that.

    Basically for those who cannot be bothered to watch it, he an American troop with a heart of gold who has to baby sit the Afghan police and troops whilst watching everything unfold and deal with the never ending problems. He has limited power and for some reason he cannot lie on camera which is what makes it so transparent. He is a great man and I respect him very much for what he has tried to do and has done, but it is a lost cause. Come 2014 I have no idea what chaos will ensue.

  • @ThailandTom
    If you are not directing [your] comments specifically to one person, then don't quote them in yours.
    Of course, maybe *I* just have my wires crossed, yet again. :rolleyes:
    vinlyn
  • MaryAnne said:


    @ThailandTom
    If you are not directing [your] comments specifically to one person, then don't quote them in yours.
    Of course, maybe *I* just have my wires crossed, yet again. :rolleyes:

    Yea well sorry I did not direct it at you, my bad seeing as I did quote it. But that is one major factor which contributes to problem or problems at hand. When presented with hardcore, raw reporting shows things for how they are, people either reject it, ignore it totally or they watch it and then forget about it. That IMO is the wrong action to take, this issues are major and if you adopt the Buddha Daharma you cannot help but feel compassion and a sense of urgency to do something.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    It is very easy to say -- watch a video, understand a situation, now go out and change the world.

    Many of us cannot even understand a personal situation and go out and change our own lives, let alone the world. So now, you have this miraculous information about dirty wars. And what action is that leading you to? "simply scroll the net most days, work from home, sometimes I will go to the market on an evening or go skating." How has this information you have gleaned made one iota of difference to how you live or what is happening? You siad, "When presented with hardcore, raw reporting shows things for how they are, people either reject it, ignore it totally or they watch it and then forget about it. That IMO is the wrong action to take, this issues are major and if you adopt the Buddha Daharma you cannot help but feel compassion and a sense of urgency to do something." Fine. What exactly are you doing about it?
    robotMaryAnne

  • What good is compassion and a sense of urgency if you have no power? If you want to work for a better world you have to be in it. Talk is cheap
    MaryAnne
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited November 2013
    robot said:


    What good is compassion and a sense of urgency if you have no power? If you want to work for a better world you have to be in it. Talk is cheap

    I think many of you under estimate the power of the internet
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited November 2013

    robot said:


    What good is compassion and a sense of urgency if you have no power? If you want to work for a better world you have to be in it. Talk is cheap

    I think many of you under estimate the power of the internet
    Maybe so. I do know that as long as I have an Internet connection I can transfer money to any charity of my choosing any time of day or night.
  • GuiGui Veteran
    John F Kennedy - June 10, 1963
    Let us examine our attitude toward peace itself. Too many of us think it is impossible. Too many think it unreal. But that is a dangerous, defeatist belief. It leads to the conclusion that war is inevitable—that mankind is doomed—that we are gripped by forces we cannot control. We need not accept that view. Our problems are manmade—therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable—and we believe they can do it again.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Gui, that is a great quotation. And I believe it is good when a man's goals exceed his abilities...and yet he strives.

    Unfortunately, most of JFK's agenda, if accomplished, was accomplish by LBJ, even though JFK was approaching the end of his elected term when he will assassinated. The real legacy of JFK's actual accomplishments was a "dirty war" culminating in the flop -- the Bay Of Pigs Invasion, which led to Khrushchev bringing about the Cuban Missile Crisis, which brought the world to the brink of nuclear war. Not to mention that it was Kennedy who began laying the groundwork for what evolved into the Vietnam War.

    My point here is not to disparage Kennedy...I'm a Democrat, and Kennedy certainly was better than most of the alternatives that the other party was offering (Goldwater in 1964, for example, which eventually led to Reagan and the Tea Party). But it is one thing to say flowery things about, "No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings", but in reality we really haven't found that to be true. And this gets down to my complaint about this thread -- talk is still just talk.

    Tosh
  • Have any of you watched the full length of both videos posted out of interest? Even the OP?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Tom, some of us -- unlike you -- don't have time to sit and surf the internet for 3 hours at a time.

    I did read synopses of the movies. I get the point. And to be honest, it was pretty much along the lines I thought the Bush administration was going.

    I do give you credit -- at least Jeremy Scahill and Ben Anderson are respected journalists.

  • vinlyn said:

    Tom, some of us -- unlike you -- don't have time to sit and surf the internet for 3 hours at a time.

    I did read synopses of the movies. I get the point. And to be honest, it was pretty much along the lines I thought the Bush administration was going.

    I do give you credit -- at least Jeremy Scahill and Ben Anderson are respected journalists.

    When you have time, face reality and watch them both. I have had less work recently so I have been able to spend time watching raw reporting such as this. And just because I have a social disorder does not mean that my opinion is less than that of somebody who does not have such a syndrome, just saying.
  • @ThailandTom
    You aren't giving an 'opinion' actually- you are sitting in judgement of others, and making derogatory assumptions about them, (and as usual, gleefully bashing Americans & America), all because they can't, won't, or don't have time for watching a video that YOU deem unimaginably important.
    So this makes us all willfully ignorant, 'bad' people right?

    And who, in any of these comments, mentioned your 'social disorder'?
    Please... You really need to start thinking before you type. Right Speech, much?
    And when someone calls you on your commentary/BS, own it, and stop making excuses. Hey, maybe try apologizing once in a while, instead of telling others they're crazy or have 'crossed wires'.
  • GuiGui Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Gui, that is a great quotation. And I believe it is good when a man's goals exceed his abilities...and yet he strives.

    Unfortunately, most of JFK's agenda, if accomplished, was accomplish by LBJ, even though JFK was approaching the end of his elected term when he will assassinated. The real legacy of JFK's actual accomplishments was a "dirty war" culminating in the flop -- the Bay Of Pigs Invasion, which led to Khrushchev bringing about the Cuban Missile Crisis, which brought the world to the brink of nuclear war. Not to mention that it was Kennedy who began laying the groundwork for what evolved into the Vietnam War.

    My point here is not to disparage Kennedy...I'm a Democrat, and Kennedy certainly was better than most of the alternatives that the other party was offering (Goldwater in 1964, for example, which eventually led to Reagan and the Tea Party). But it is one thing to say flowery things about, "No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings", but in reality we really haven't found that to be true. And this gets down to my complaint about this thread -- talk is still just talk.

    Actually the Bay of Pigs was a CIA endevor and Kennedy was angry at them for being lied to. He was at odds with the joint chiefs most of his term. And he had an image problem as being portrayed as weak. I don't think he would have gone along with it had that not been the case. And the Cuban Missle Crisis was a power play by Khrushchev to get the US to pull their missiles out of Turkey. And Kennedy had started a complete review of the Vietnam policy and was actually planning on having all US troops removed by 1964 when he was assasinated.
    But the point of using a part of his speech was to say that it is better to take one step toward peace in the face of overwhelming odds than to not take one step because you think war is inevitable.
    Talk is just one step. Without talk, nothing would have been accomplished.
    MaryAnne
  • Have any of you watched the full length of both videos posted out of interest? Even the OP?

    I will watch them when I can spare the time, Tom.
  • W T F seriously even a Buddhist forum populate mostly with US citizens cannot overcome reality and bias in a normal manner. I have stated @MaryAnne my thoughts and one of which was that a man from the marine core of the US was one of the most influential people I have ever seen, watch the videos you scared so and so. Why won't you watch them, are you too afraid to see sickness? The Buddha advised it. Are you too afraid to see old age? The Buddha advised it. Are you too afraid to see death? The Buddha advised it. Are you too afraid to see the US government commit crime after crime after crime against humanity or is that something you cannot stomach?
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    It would be nice to be able to do something about the evil of this life. But, different from others here, I don't think it is some sort of imperative which, if we don't DO something, will come down on us like a ton of bricks. The fact is that sometimes there is the capacity to do something -- the time, will, energy -- and sometimes a (wo)man's life has enough demands without adding to them.

    What I do think about the video alluded to in the OP is that, like other information, pleasant or unpleasant, thoughts and opinions are given the opportunity to become wider. No, there is probably not much I can do about a socially-entrenched desire for more war, continued hunger, second-rate education or whatever other Big Issue is out there. But I can become somewhat better informed so that when, perhaps, the chance and intention to act does come along, I can act with less self-righteous idiocy. Please note, I said "less" self-righteous idiocy, not "no" self-righteous idiocy. :)
    ThailandTomEvenThird
  • genkaku said:

    It would be nice to be able to do something about the evil of this life. But, different from others here, I don't think it is some sort of imperative which, if we don't DO something, will come down on us like a ton of bricks. The fact is that sometimes there is the capacity to do something -- the time, will, energy -- and sometimes a (wo)man's life has enough demands without adding to them.

    What I do think about the video alluded to in the OP is that, like other information, pleasant or unpleasant, thoughts and opinions are given the opportunity to become wider. No, there is probably not much I can do about a socially-entrenched desire for more war, continued hunger, second-rate education or whatever other Big Issue is out there. But I can become somewhat better informed so that when, perhaps, the chance and intention to act does come along, I can act with less self-righteous idiocy. Please note, I said "less" self-righteous idiocy, not "no" self-righteous idiocy. :)

    Have you seen the Vice video? Same place yet different stand point. Al thought very good reporting.

  • ^^ Wow, you really are seriously clueless, aren't you?

    But Ok, no problem-
    I will be very happy to ignore all future posts (and threads) from you, please do the same for me.
    Apparently, you aren't even on the same planet as most of us here, and I'm not getting sucked into your nonsense, again.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Gui said:


    Actually the Bay of Pigs was a CIA endevor and Kennedy was angry at them for being lied to. He was at odds with the joint chiefs most of his term. And he had an image problem as being portrayed as weak. I don't think he would have gone along with it had that not been the case. And the Cuban Missle Crisis was a power play by Khrushchev to get the US to pull their missiles out of Turkey. And Kennedy had started a complete review of the Vietnam policy and was actually planning on having all US troops removed by 1964 when he was assasinated.
    But the point of using a part of his speech was to say that it is better to take one step toward peace in the face of overwhelming odds than to not take one step because you think war is inevitable.
    Talk is just one step. Without talk, nothing would have been accomplished.

    Thank you for admitting that Kennedy was an ineffective commander in chief.

    And yes, isn't it odd that we had a right to have our missiles in Turkey, but Russia didn't have the right to have missiles in Cuba. I don't call that a "power play"; I'd call that an attempt to "level the playing field". Kennedy increased our military presence in Vietnam 16-fold! Kennedy played the game of using smaller countries as substitutes for an American-Russian war. Now that was dirty. And he did not, generally, take significant steps toward peace.





  • MaryAnne said:


    ^^ Wow, you really are seriously clueless, aren't you?

    But Ok, no problem-
    I will be very happy to ignore all future posts (and threads) from you, please do the same for me.
    Apparently, you aren't even on the same planet as most of us here, and I'm not getting sucked into your nonsense, again.

    The above comment was directed at Tom, no one else. Had a distraction and posted without realizing other posts had popped up between us. Sorry about that.
  • @MaryAnne what is your problem, you are a real stick in the mud and I would probably like to ignore you as well for a decade or 2, by then you will probably be dead anyway so it doesn't matter anyway really. Enjoy life and stop being a stick in the mud :D
  • genkaku said:

    "Dirty Wars" is a movie filled with both hard and circumstantial evidence of America's twisted 'war on terrorism.' I found it quiet, compelling and evidence enough to warrant sadness about the losses the American fabric has sustained.

    Haven't seen the movie but when it is war, it is not just about the losses of the American. In war, both sides lose.
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