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Does anyone positively feel that there is no such thing as enlightenment?

As the title. I am kind of somewhere in between open arms belief and agnosticism.

Comments

  • matthewmartinmatthewmartin Amateur Bodhisattva Suburbs of Mt Meru Veteran
    This sort of question depends on definitions.

    I'm a skeptic, so oddly that means I find the possibility of enlightenment now more likely than enlightenment later, i.e. postmortem. It's an idea that calls for lowering the bar until enlightenment is something that can be achieved. High bar enlightenment sounds like an unachievable goal-- either a poorly chosen goal or a goal that you don't actually expect to achieve, sort of how a goal might be "to always do better at my handwriting" or "continually be more creative", goals that are more like directions of continual movement.

    If I had to assent or not to a particular formulation of enlightenment, I'd probably answer differently.
    JainarayanlobsterHamsaka
  • I can draw some parallels, matt. I think there should be reasonable goals but also the notion that there are endless goals. In that likeness I feel there are different levels of enlightenment. It is like stairsteps and some of the steps have the characteristic that there is no falling back from that point.
    sova
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Because "enlightenment" can mean so many different things to everyone and anyone, I hesitate to claim it is a real, definitive state of being that lasts any substantial length of time.

    Of course I could be wrong, but then again it doesn't matter (to me), because "enlightenment" - as some ultimate goal of 'spiritual perfection' - is not a goal I'm striving for, myself...
    Kundo
  • I find the possibility of enlightenment now more likely than enlightenment later, i.e. postmortem.

    Agreed.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Its really a state of mind, so why not? Im agnostic with these things and my confidence in the Buddha's dhamma continues to grow.
    BunksInvincible_summer
  • ZenshinZenshin Veteran East Midlands UK Veteran
    I have had only one moment of true vipassana but every time I start to doubt it springs up in my mind. There was a joy in it that made any earthly pleasure seem tame by comparison.
    JeffreyrobotsovaInvincible_summer
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    To me, it's sort of like aliens. It seems inconceivable to me that in all the galaxies and on all the planets we are the only intelligent life. But, introduce me to an alien, and then I'll be content to believe it.

    Same with enlightenment. Introduce me to someone actually enlightened, and I'll then firmly believe it's possible. But until you do, I'm going to be very skeptical.

    However, there are tons of wise principles within Buddhist teachings that don't rely on enlightenment, so I'll continue living a relatively secular Buddhist life.
    MaryAnnesova
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    There are a bunch of enlightened people @Vinlyn, it even says so on their website :-P


    And of course any really awake person probably hangs out alone in the woods and no one knows they are awake.
    MaryAnneBunkslobstersova
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    :p
    sova
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    And so ends this thread!

    :om:
    sova
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Jayantha said:

    There are a bunch of enlightened people @Vinlyn, it even says so on their website :-P


    And of course any really awake person probably hangs out alone in the woods and no one knows they are awake.

    I like to imagine the "homeless" guy who hangs out near my train station is enlightened and the fact that I drop a dollar or two in his hat most days (and buy him the occasional coffee) is helping me on my quest for enlightenment....
    lobsterriverflowpoptart
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    What?

    First there is no 'enlightenment', secondly you are cementing his belief in his 'position' in society.

    I was in NYC 2 weeks ago. I was feeling good-natured to a guy who was begging outside a pizza store. I asked him what he would do with the money I was about to give him, and he said, I will book myself into a $22 room and have a shower sir'. I gave him about $4.50, and he was off - straight to the 'liquor store'...
  • hmmm time to read a sutra. great wisdom comes from a managed mind.
    sova
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited November 2013
    @anataman

    maybe you should have given him 30 dollars... enough for the room/shower AND the liquor?
    ZenshinHamsakariverflow
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2013
    If you want to know about the mental state leading to enlightenment, there are some fairly explicit descriptions in the Pali canon:
    Just as if there were a pool of water in a mountain glen — clear, limpid, and unsullied — where a man with good eyesight standing on the bank could see shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting, and it would occur to him, 'This pool of water is clear, limpid, and unsullied. Here are these shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about and resting.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There's nothing further for this world.'
    I've had enough experience training myself in releasing stress and sensuality to find the state of mind described here a plausible outcome of serious practice.
    sovalobsterblu3reeInvincible_summer
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    If it is a thing where can it be bought? if it is a vista at the end of a long mountain trail, how best can it be walked?

    "enlightenment" is what happens when you flip a switch in a dark room

    now a better question is, is there such a thing as a switch?


    just like how a man who stands up on a water slide to proclaim he is successfully sliding will mute his very victory, one must wholly give themselves to the process. this is true wisdom of no-self

    experince and mental frames and dwellings are ground and path.

    fruit .. well, you will simply have to bite in for yourself.
    riverflowJeffreyblu3ree
  • anataman said:

    What?

    First there is no 'enlightenment', secondly you are cementing his belief in his 'position' in society.

    I was in NYC 2 weeks ago. I was feeling good-natured to a guy who was begging outside a pizza store. I asked him what he would do with the money I was about to give him, and he said, I will book myself into a $22 room and have a shower sir'. I gave him about $4.50, and he was off - straight to the 'liquor store'...

    Now that's enlightenment ... for you!
    sova
  • ^^ Oy! Fox news.... [gag]
    sovariverflowZenshin
  • It's a bit like sitting in a blacked out room with your eyes shut asking "Is there a light switch?".

    You can tell yourself there isn't and stay put.

    Or you can get up and look for it.

    And wouldn't it be funny if, having looked for it and having found it and having switched it on, you see the room is full of enlightened people trying not to laugh at what an idiot you've been all these years thinking you were alone in the dark?
    Zenshinriverflow
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    This sort of question depends on definitions.

    Yes, there seem to be different ideas about what "enlightenment" is.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    If it's possible to be a little bit free of greed, hate, and ignorance, then it's possible to be more than a little bit free of them.
    If it's possible to be more than a little bit free, then it's possible to be a lot free.
    If it's possible to be a lot free, then it's possible to be more than a lot free.
    If it's possible to be more than a lot free, then it's possible to be all the way free.

    :om:
    riverflowZenshinJeffreysova
  • seeker242 said:

    If it's possible to be a little bit free of greed, hate, and ignorance, then it's possible to be more than a little bit free of them.
    If it's possible to be more than a little bit free, then it's possible to be a lot free.
    If it's possible to be a lot free, then it's possible to be more than a lot free.
    If it's possible to be more than a lot free, then it's possible to be all the way free.

    :om:

    @Seeker242

    No one can argue with what you said... however, that's the easy part.
    You're only mentioning the negative aspects of one's life/behavior.

    What about attachment to what we view as "positive" things- the 'good things'?

    Sure, free yourself completely from greed, hate, ignorance, anger, etc....
    but does one really need to free themselves - completely - from beauty, love, relationships, and all the other positive forces and behaviors in our lives?
    I never saw the point in that. And this is probably where most Buddhists who've been practicing a while, (and are not monks) find the path most difficult.

    I understand the concept of attachments and becoming a clinging vine to them, but I also understand there is a way to walk the Middle Way and grasp the idea that ALL aspects of our lives, behavior, & circumstances are impermanent/changable and not to cling to, or obsess on any of them; good OR bad.

    Just tossing out some thoughts....


  • Maybe for those on the path it is one of many possibilities, and for those gone beyond the path it is all there is.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited November 2013
    MaryAnne said:

    seeker242 said:

    If it's possible to be a little bit free of greed, hate, and ignorance, then it's possible to be more than a little bit free of them.
    If it's possible to be more than a little bit free, then it's possible to be a lot free.
    If it's possible to be a lot free, then it's possible to be more than a lot free.
    If it's possible to be more than a lot free, then it's possible to be all the way free.

    :om:

    @Seeker242

    No one can argue with what you said... however, that's the easy part.
    You're only mentioning the negative aspects of one's life/behavior.

    What about attachment to what we view as "positive" things- the 'good things'?

    Sure, free yourself completely from greed, hate, ignorance, anger, etc....
    but does one really need to free themselves - completely - from beauty, love, relationships, and all the other positive forces and behaviors in our lives?

    Some thoughts. :)

    If they don't originate from greed, hate or ignorance, then no you would not need to be free of them because they don't cause suffering to begin with. The Buddha never said you need to free yourself from things that don't arise out of those three things.

    Although, he did say it's important to know what originates from where and that we have a habit of of deluding ourselves as to what originates from where. So it's possible for us to believe that some thing does not originate from one of these 3, when it actually does. So it's possible for us to believe that some thing won't cause suffering, when it actually does.

    Attachment to the "good things" cause suffering too. For example, attachment to good heath will cause suffering when good health disappears and bad health appears. Attachment to beauty will cause suffering when beauty disappears and ugly appears. Attachment to being alive will cause suffering when death appears, etc, etc. To experience good health and not cling to it is fine. To experience being alive and not cling to it is fine. But, To experience good health and not cling to means it really is ok to get sick. To experience being alive and not cling to it means it really is ok to die.

    Non-clinging, non-attachment, freedom, (insert whichever other word here) all mean the same thing IMO. :)
    riverflowZenshinJeffreysova
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    If it's possible to be a little bit free of greed, hate, and ignorance, then it's possible to be more than a little bit free of them.
    If it's possible to be more than a little bit free, then it's possible to be a lot free.
    If it's possible to be a lot free, then it's possible to be more than a lot free.
    If it's possible to be more than a lot free, then it's possible to be all the way free.

    :om:

    If it's possible to make a religion around things like emptiness and enlightenment, then it's possible people will find meaning in it and BELIEVE. :p
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    MaryAnne said:


    ... but I also understand there is a way to walk the Middle Way and grasp the idea that ALL aspects of our lives, behavior, & circumstances are impermanent/changable and not to cling to, or obsess on any of them; good OR bad.

    I think that's what Buddhism says, isn't it? The problem isn't the good stuff in itself, it's getting attached to it - so when it goes or changes, as it inevitably will, we experience suffering.
    MaryAnneJeffreyChaz
  • Just one example from MaryAnne's list... relationships.

    Ananda said that relationships were half of the holy life. Buddha said 'don't say that for they are the whole of the spiritual life'. (Not quoted exactly)

    My teacher wrote a book about dying and she recommends relaxing into your 'heart connections' which are like love and compassion for people you know.
    sova
  • Hi,
    there is no such thing being written in Pali-Canon. The right word would be AWAKENING. Meeting Maro Dusi is much more evident. It´s showing that you have
    advanced a long way on the path.

    sacco
    Cinorjer
  • Why do people ask this question without giving their definition of what enlightenment is??
    Without telling us what you mean by enlightenment , we cant give you a genuine answer...

    However, for me I believe enlightenment is just an understanding of how things are or how something is and works.. Etc..

    So i believe enlightenment does exist..
    riverflow
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2013
    I leave the poster the task of explaining what THEY mean by enlightenment. So it's a broader question.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    I leave the poster the task of explaining what THEY mean by enlightenment.

    Here are some suggestions:
    http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=33_synonyms_for_Nibbana

    :p
    Jeffrey
  • This is what the buddha boy from Nepal says, who claims to be enlightened (His name is Maha Sambodhi Dharma Sangha). One of the 11 precepts:

    "6. Not having reached Enlightenment oneself, do not seek to prove what it is with clever words; and, while still in confusion, do not make others confused.

    10. When one realizes the Truth, The GuruPath takes form, so achieve Enlightenment for all Sentient Beings."

    So, he encourages everyone to reach enlightenment. It seems that the problem with some people is that they get some revelations and think that is the final truth, which they call enlightenment. After some years on my path, I started to get real revelations that has made me believe in enlightenment. I like the buddha boy's strict virtue, because enlightenment without virtue is evil. Look at the history of the illuminati on the planet, going back to Lucifer himself. Lucifer offered the knowledge of good and evil, which is a form of enlightenment, however at the loss of immortality. A lot of luciferian illumined ones claim to have great clairvoyance but at the price of practicing evil. Then, if you read the Book of Enoch, you see how the fallen angels (The watchers) taught humans many secrets, and ended up messing things up very badly on earth, pre-flood.

    To me, it is not about whether enlightenment is real, because it is...it is about what is the RIGHT enlightenment.

    "19. Whether or not one is enlightened and what one has to bear is justly determined according to the accumulated merit of each soul traveling on the Way being shown by Guru." (Maha Sambodhi Dharma Sangha Guru's Message in Chitwan of June 8, 2013)
  • I believe enlightened life is possible, but I couldn’t exactly define what it is.

    I don’t think people can be enlightened if that means they have supernatural powers or if that means the serene smile on their face will be there forever.
    You can’t change the basic characteristics of a species. We are human and we inherited some irreparable flaws in the genetic design.
    The enlightenment that I can believe in includes accepting the facts of life and is not some childish fantasy.
    vinlynMaryAnneChaz
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    I'm positive that enlightenment could kick me up the clacker and I'd not realise till much later ;)
    MaryAnneDairyLama
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited November 2013
    Not only are there different interpretations of what enlightenment means exactly, there are also different ideas on what there is to be enlightened about, by or through.

    I would have to hear the specifics before I could discern whether I am being enlightened or if I'm still in the dark. Whether there is a light to see by or just a projection letting me see what I want to see.
    MaryAnnevinlyn
  • Well i recently read a book called 'The Tao of Physics' and it made a point that a lot of experiences in eastern philosophy are beyond words or explanation. So i don't think the name or explanation of of the experience is a reliable source. I recommend if one is one the spiritual path to practise and see whether we can experience it for ourselves. I know tha t there have been cases whilst deep in mindfulness when along pops a thought and for some reason it is so uplifting and joyful.
    So in short yes, yes i do.
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