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It's OK to admit

seeker242seeker242 ZenFlorida, USA Veteran
It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

I find this to be a good contemplation. :)
Dennis1lobsterVastmindJainarayanDavidmisterCopeanatamanStraight_ManInvincible_summerWisdom23pommesetoranges
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Comments

  • seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are

    wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    I completely agree except for the 'I might just be a fool' part. Fools could not possibly admit the other parts. Therefore unless you are just lying or playing games, You cannot be a fool. Of course you could be foolish-aren't we all sometimes. I especially resemble the real asshole part. I excuse it as using wrath but of course that just makes me a dick. which my wife is quick to point out if I use the wrath excuse. Of course wrath is from compassion and not anger-ever. Fun post thanks.

    But of course if you have realized meaning clear light and entered the path of no more learning, that part about not knowing everything is mistaken also-which would just make you fallible-like the rest of us-but all knowing. Best, Dick
    P.S. I do a similar contemplation. When things don't go right I look for the lie I added
    That could go on your list-at the end I think. mtgby


  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Dennis1 said:



    I completely agree except for the 'I might just be a fool' part. Fools could not possibly admit the other parts.

    Reminds me of this "A fool who knows he is a fool, is that much wiser" Forgot who said that, but it's pretty good stuff!

    :)
    ChazInvincible_summer
  • "Brothers share five districts;
    father and sons three states."
    To learn where the wild ducks fly
    follow the white-hare banner!
    Find a magic melon in your dream!
    Steal a sacred orange from the palace!
    Far away from your native land
    swim with fish in a stream!

    Hanshan

    Too crazy?

    How about:

    Yesterday's clarity is today's stupidity
    The universe has dark and light, entrust oneself to change

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ikkyū
  • Hey @Dennis1 why does mtgby mean? I can't figure it out.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's okay to admit the same is true for Buddhist teachers, and any other religious authorities.
    JainarayanDavidvinlynzenff
  • Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's okay to admit the same is true for Buddhist teachers, and any other religious authorities.

    But how will that benefit you?
  • robot said:

    But how will that benefit you?

    Critical thinking:

    "Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them." - Kalama Sutta
    MaryAnneDavid
  • @Seeker242

    Turn the mirror on thyself.
    vinlyn
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited December 2013

    robot said:

    But how will that benefit you?

    Critical thinking:

    "Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them." - Kalama Sutta
    I don't think that is the purpose of the excersize that is proposed in the OP.
    A teacher should examine his own mind.
    JainarayanDavid
  • robot said:


    A teacher should examine his own mind.

    Point taken. :thumbsup:
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    edited December 2013
    I admit, I admit, I admit. I admit that everybody else is wrong once in a while.
    poptart
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Life continually proves to me that i end up being wrong on most things, let alone some. :-P
    poptart
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's okay to admit the same is true for Buddhist teachers, and any other religious authorities.

    But how will that benefit you?
    The same way that admitting you're a fool does, of course.
    David
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    @seeker242 ....can you take it a step further...
    Why is it OK?
  • Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's okay to admit the same is true for Buddhist teachers, and any other religious authorities.

    But how will that benefit you?
    The same way that admitting you're a fool does, of course.
    So do you suggest that I examine each teacher one by one, or all at the same time, to find out if this is true?
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Vastmind said:

    @seeker242 ....can you take it a step further...
    Why is it OK?

    I'd like to hear this as well.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited December 2013
    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's okay to admit the same is true for Buddhist teachers, and any other religious authorities.

    But how will that benefit you?
    By demonstrating and living/setting the example of actual humility.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    robot said:

    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's okay to admit the same is true for Buddhist teachers, and any other religious authorities.

    But how will that benefit you?
    The same way that admitting you're a fool does, of course.
    So do you suggest that I examine each teacher one by one, or all at the same time, to find out if this is true?
    I wouldn't bother if I were you.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's a very healthy contemplation.in my view. It also leaves very little room for unwavering faith.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Yes, it is a healthy contemplation, and some can contemplate it and not be aware they actually do fit in some/many of the categories.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's okay to admit the same is true for Buddhist teachers, and any other religious authorities.
    I would say that is true, but only if it actually is true and not just a personal projection of one's own biases onto another person, etc. Because if that is the case, you could easily end up calling a wise person foolish, and vice versa.
    Vastmind said:

    @seeker242 ....can you take it a step further...
    Why is it OK?

    Because that will help you abandon wrong view and enter into right view, and not be reborn in hell. :)
    ourself said:

    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's a very healthy contemplation.in my view. It also leaves very little room for unwavering faith.
    I disagree. There is still much room for unwavering faith. For example, I have unwavering faith in the idea that keeping the precepts are good and breaking them are bad. Just one example.
    MaryAnne said:

    @Seeker242

    Turn the mirror on thyself.

    OK! But just as long as you do the same. :)

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Yes, it is a healthy contemplation, and some can contemplate it and not be aware they actually do fit in some/many of the categories.

    Reminds me of people who think it's ok to break the precepts.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    And some do both and don't recognize they are doing either.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Quite correct! Why is why it's quite prudent to "Turn the mirror on thyself", Vinlyn.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    And you, seeker.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's okay to admit the same is true for Buddhist teachers, and any other religious authorities.
    I would say that is true, but only if it actually is true and not just a personal projection of one's own biases onto another person, etc. Because if that is the case, you could easily end up calling a wise person foolish, and vice versa.
    Vastmind said:

    @seeker242 ....can you take it a step further...
    Why is it OK?

    Because that will help you abandon wrong view and enter into right view, and not be reborn in hell. :)
    ourself said:

    seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    It's a very healthy contemplation.in my view. It also leaves very little room for unwavering faith.
    I disagree. There is still much room for unwavering faith. For example, I have unwavering faith in the idea that keeping the precepts are good and breaking them are bad. Just one example.
    The difference is that can be tested. No faith required.



  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    ourself said:



    The difference is that can be tested. No faith required.

    Pretty sure we both are using different definitions of what "faith" actually means in a Buddhist context.

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited December 2013
    @seeker242
    Not exactly what I was going for .... hahaha

    A lot people think it's NOT OK, because they view wrongness/mistakes as a
    weakness. A weakness or admitting we aren't right/know certain things
    is viewed as a vulnerability. A lot of people aren't ready for open vulnerability.
    Facing our own vulnerability is a big, deep task...no matter how small
    the admission. It's OK though, because it can bring strength and wisdom.
    It can bring compassion, understanding, and some real reflection and
    karma/behavior changes. Most of all admitting your vulnerable will not
    cause instant implosion. Well, it might for some people..lolol

    It's your thread...so ..it's OK to admit your playing some tit for tat...
    tennis.... back and forth also. :)
    vinlynDavid
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    So what were you going for? You can say, it's OK! :)

    Although, I do think it's unfortunate that threads seem to always turn into some tit for tat bullshit. Tit for tat bullshit is completely off topic!
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    I did say. :D

    'It's OK, because it can bring strength and wisdom.
    It can bring compassion, understanding, and some real reflection and
    karma/behavior changes.'
    David
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Vastmind said:

    I did say. :D

    'It's OK, because it can bring strength and wisdom.
    It can bring compassion, understanding, and some real reflection and
    karma/behavior changes.'

    Oh, ok. :D To me that all means the same as "right views", since right views do all of the above, IMO. :) But that is a nice way to put it. :)
    VastmindDavid
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited December 2013
    seeker242 said:


    ...
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    ...
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    ...

    Yes, if they convince me.
    Putting on a robe and shaving ones head and babbling in Pali is not enough for that
  • @zenff, Is it really babbling? Are you serious?
  • Sure. Who needs a dead language to make a point?
  • Why would a monk be speaking to you in Pali? Are you referring to using Pali words when using English clouds the issue. So it is foolish to point out that dukkha is imprecisely translated as 'suffering'? It's important to insert Pali words when it can clear away confusion.
    robotDavid
  • Okay, for a few words I’ll make an exception.
    But doing an Abidhamma course with (God knows how many) sets of Pali words, or memorizing sutras in Pali is not very helpful imho
  • I agree!
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    No faith necessary.

    It is a weakness if one does NOT believe it's OK to be foolish, wrong, ridiculous, insane, boring, irrelevant.

    One exception, unique to me alone, is that it is ALWAYS brilliant and OK of me to be verbose and pedantic. Any naysayers are clearly wrong and destined for Samahita's karmic barbeque.

    Gassho :)
    MaryAnneDennis1lobsterDavid
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited December 2013
    seeker242 said:

    ourself said:



    The difference is that can be tested. No faith required.

    Pretty sure we both are using different definitions of what "faith" actually means in a Buddhist context.

    There isn't a context of faith strictly for Buddhism. Rebirth cannot be proven by reading about it so to have unwavering faith is to believe even though all the facts are not in.

    There's nothing wrong with that unless we use fear tactics to sway others to our faith in whatever.

    vinlyn
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    ourself said:



    There isn't a context of faith strictly for Buddhism. Rebirth cannot be proven by reading about it so to have unwavering faith is to believe even though all the facts are not in.

    Yes, I see where you are coming from. But I think there is a context of faith strictly for Buddhism. Especially when it comes to the unwavering faith of a stream winner. For example, if 95% of the facts are in, and they are all true, there is really no point in renaming skeptical about the other 5%. The skepticism goes away by itself, because 95% of the facts are in. The skepticism disappears and unwavering faith appears, just by itself. It is the cutting of the 2nd fetter.
    There's nothing wrong with that unless we use fear tactics to sway others to our faith in whatever.
    Personally, I don't think the Buddha used fear tactics but at the same time he did say "doing these bad things or thinking is this wrong manner will cause you to go to hell after the breakup of the body". Of course it's more complicated than that but that is the general idea. He even made pretty gruesome descriptions of what actually happens. I doubt he was just making things up when he said those things. If the other 5% actually is true, it's really just a statement of the facts, not a tactic.

    :om:
  • robot said:

    Hey @Dennis1 why does mtgby mean? I can't figure it out.

    Hi Robot: I like your comments I read them diligently.
    Thank you very much for your input. May The Good Be Yours=mtgby

  • Jeffrey said:

    Why would a monk be speaking to you in Pali? Are you referring to using Pali words when using English clouds the issue. So it is foolish to point out that dukkha is imprecisely translated as 'suffering'? It's important to insert Pali words when it can clear away confusion.

    Well sometimes it clears up things when you clear up slightly erroneous translations.
    e.g. Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. The heart of the heart sutra which accompanies the Prajnaparamitra sutra in the book I have. Great-fine quote-however.
    That (is) actually means "is always present with" or 'always accompanies' or even
    always comes with. You see what I mean? Sometimes it is useful to clarify a wrong translation. Another one is the idea of reincarnation. Ending cyclic existence doesn't have to mean ending dying and being reborn. It could mean ending the being, being aware and then being compulsively being there with automatic thought after thought.... In Pali I think it seems clear that we are talking about actual death of the body and rebirth in another body and ending that cycle. So you see translations can create a lot of confusion and disagreement. I think that is a lot of the divergence between Maha and Hina vehicles. I mean a lot of the Hinayana is from the Pali and the Maha is not.
    mtgby When I was quite young I used to get Pali Canon books out of the downstairs special library in San Diego Library. And then I never did after I got into High School.
    So things changed and previous certainties became different understandings. Ah, glorious change. mtgby

    Jeffrey
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    ourself said:



    There isn't a context of faith strictly for Buddhism. Rebirth cannot be proven by reading about it so to have unwavering faith is to believe even though all the facts are not in.

    Yes, I see where you are coming from. But I think there is a context of faith strictly for Buddhism. Especially when it comes to the unwavering faith of a stream winner. For example, if 95% of the facts are in, and they are all true, there is really no point in renaming skeptical about the other 5%. The skepticism goes away by itself, because 95% of the facts are in. The skepticism disappears and unwavering faith appears, just by itself. It is the cutting of the 2nd fetter.
    There's nothing wrong with that unless we use fear tactics to sway others to our faith in whatever.
    Personally, I don't think the Buddha used fear tactics but at the same time he did say "doing these bad things or thinking is this wrong manner will cause you to go to hell after the breakup of the body". Of course it's more complicated than that but that is the general idea. He even made pretty gruesome descriptions of what actually happens. I doubt he was just making things up when he said those things. If the other 5% actually is true, it's really just a statement of the facts, not a tactic.

    :om:

    When it comes to descriptions of hell realms other than the ones we find here I personally think he was talking metaphorically and meant realms as mental states, not actual places.

    I can't have faith in a teaching just because it is believed to come from Buddha. It has to make sense and pass scrutiny.

    It's ok for me to admit that I doubt every single sutra, sutta and discourse came from Buddha and still take refuge in Buddha, his teachings and the Sangha.

    vinlynlobsterEvenThird
  • seeker242 said:

    It's OK to admit...that I might actually be wrong about some things.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually are wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that there might just be people in this world that actually do know better than I do.
    It's OK to admit...that my cherished opinions...might actually be quite foolish.
    It's OK to admit...that I don't know things, that other people actually do know.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably follow the advice of those wiser than me.
    It's OK to admit...that I should probably stop thinking that I already know everything.
    It's OK to admit...that I can be a real asshole sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am a fool.
    It's OK to admit...that I am deluded.
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be wrong.

    I find this to be a good contemplation. :)

    In a democratic country, it should be okay too to do otherwise. No?
  • The (democratic) I would like to take an exception of your use of the word. Iran is a democratic country (sort of), but, because it is a theocracy they really don't have freedoms or liberty as we here in America. Democratic is not the same as free. A
    democratic country can have many forms of government-like Iran which is a Democratic Theocracy. In America we are a Republic. We are a democratic Republic with laws reflected in the constitution and other documents. The rules of our Constitutional Republic restrain our government and give the people power to force the government to comply to the rules of our Republic. This is why we divide the government and allow one section's powers to stop the other segments.

    For instance, All spending bills originate in the legislature (congress). The law passed by the Senate and the Congress (the ACA) was passed on by the Supreme Court and could have been struck down. It wasn't, but that is the court's power. The Congress can prevent excessive spending by simply refusing to originate a spending bill. And the Senate can block a treaty by refusing to ratify it. The President runs the military but spends money provided by the Congress. The President can force Congress to rewrite
    laws he doesn't like by vetoing them. It's hard to override a President's veto. And all citizens are equal under the laws and have the same legal rights-because of the 14th amendment.

    Our free nation, with equality under the laws provides us the right and ability to be different. Our free country and our free markets make it easy to get ahead and move up. A Nation could be 90% in agreement to make 10% slaves. That would be a Democratic Slave State. You wouldn't have the right or ability to disagree unless the majority gave you that right on some specific subject and then later maybe not so much.
    So, the term you are looking for is free country, not democratic country. mtgby
  • Dennis1 said:


    Well sometimes it clears up things when you clear up slightly erroneous translations.
    e.g. Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. The heart of the heart sutra which accompanies the Prajnaparamitra sutra in the book I have. Great-fine quote-however.
    That (is) actually means "is always present with" or 'always accompanies' or even
    always comes with. You see what I mean? Sometimes it is useful to clarify a wrong translation.

    @Dennis1
    Thanks for that. It’s less mysterious that way; just saying something like form and emptiness always go hand in hand.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Dennis1 said:

    The (democratic) I would like to take an exception of your use of the word. Iran is a democratic country (sort of), but, because it is a theocracy they really don't have freedoms or liberty as we here in America. Democratic is not the same as free. ...


    Any idea that Iran fits under a broad spectrum of the concept of a democracy is ridiculous.

    Yes, they have an elected president, an elected parliament, and an "Assembly of Experts". But it is that "Assembly Of Experts" that actually elects the Supreme Leader. Candidates who decide to run for any of these positions have to be approved by the Guardian Council, or they are not allowed to run. And then you have the Supreme Leader who is unelected and is the SUPREME LEADER, and he can undo anything the elected representatives do.


  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited December 2013
    seeker242 said:


    Yes, I see where you are coming from. But I think there is a context of faith strictly for Buddhism. Especially when it comes to the unwavering faith of a stream winner. For example, if 95% of the facts are in, and they are all true, there is really no point in renaming skeptical about the other 5%. The skepticism goes away by itself, because 95% of the facts are in. The skepticism disappears and unwavering faith appears, just by itself. It is the cutting of the 2nd fetter.
    ...
    Personally, I don't think the Buddha used fear tactics but at the same time he did say "doing these bad things or thinking is this wrong manner will cause you to go to hell after the breakup of the body". Of course it's more complicated than that but that is the general idea. He even made pretty gruesome descriptions of what actually happens. I doubt he was just making things up when he said those things. If the other 5% actually is true, it's really just a statement of the facts, not a tactic.

    There is a point in remaining skeptical about some claims.

    Buddhism – the way I see it – is pretty good at practical and psychological insights in human happiness. I think there’s modern research supporting the benefits of meditation and I’m sure there is some proof for the idea that being friendly, helpful and “virtuous” contributes to our mental wellbeing.

    Buddhism however is notoriously bad in cosmology. It describes various fantasy-realms of heaven and hell.
    It sees ghosts and Deva’s and describes a universe full of magical powers and miraculous events.
    At the time that stuff made perfect sense to people, but now we know that it is myth.

    In the idea of karma is a mix of practical knowledge and myth. We “reap what we sow” in many practical ways. I get back from people what I give to them – quite often. But it isn’t a universal law and there is no mechanism of pay-back after death. Seeing the obvious ways of how we often get what we deserve in life doesn’t support in any way the idea of a universal law. We often don’t get what we deserve too.

    The idea of rebirth may be comforting. The universe is just and (because of that) we can control our fate through a series of lives. But there is no “95%” proof for it. There is none.

    lobsterMaryAnne
  • It's OK to admit...that I might actually be right
    It's OK to admit...that I can be wiser than the present me
    It's OK to admit...better to know than to stay ignorant
    It's OK to admit...my cherished foolishness can be let go
    It's OK to admit...I know things change
    It's OK to admit...that it is wise to hear wisdom
    It's OK to admit...I already know everything I need
    It's OK to admit...that I can 'be real' sometimes!
    It's OK to admit...that I am wise sometimes
    It's OK to admit...that I am clear sometimes
    It's OK to admit...that I just might be OK


    :wave:
    seeker242Vastmind
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