Questions Regarding Time

sinewaves

I am new to both zen, and this community, and I wish to start of by saying hello, and thanks to lincoln for allowing me to join.

My question is in relation to my understanding of time.

What is meant by the illusion of time? I'm aware that the past does not exist - that it was a former now/present moment, so essentially, there is no such thing as past and future, but the present moment. Is this what is meant by the illusion of time?

Is it wrong to think about the former now? For example, if I had done something of ill nature in the former now, and I am thinking in the present moment (of this experience) without judgement (seeing it for what it is), but to learn, is this wrong?

In the book "Training the hand of Thought" Uchiyama gives the example of a man believing that he came from a prominent family with a lot of wealth, and feeling ashamed of his present situation (lack of wealth), and outlines that this is nothing more than being shackled to a conception of the past. What is Uchiyama saying here in relation to being shackled to a a conception of the past? Is this an example of the ego comparing time?

Thank you.

Jeffrey

That is shackling to past. You can use the past in your practice but don't let the time become the master rather than the servant.

Time is just a thought flitting through awareness. Really a memory is in the now. But the now is dependently arisen dependent on a notion of past and future.

We see these dependently arisen times in our ordinary awareness. But we know that they are really just conceptually broken down into time. In reality there is only the now, but in a sense there is no now except for a dependently arisen now.

The question remains is there a sense of time outside of dependent arising. Different sects and teachers have a different response. All follow the NOBLE eightfold path (noble when they have progressed to a glimmer of the dharma), but right view is interpreted differently and that probably includes the notion of time.

sinewaves

Thank you, Jeffrey. So, in the example I gave, the man was comparing the past, to the present, and this can create internal suffering (created by the ego) - is this correct?

Can I ask what you mean you say that there is no now except for a dependently arisen now?

Jeffrey

sinewaves said:

Thank you, Jeffrey. So, in the example I gave, the man was comparing the past, to the present, and this can create internal suffering (created by the ego) - is this correct?

Can I ask what you mean you say that there is no now except for a dependently arisen now?

Yes the first part is correct and it is a very apparent example of how losing ourselves in a thought-world of a scenario can lead to suffering.

As far as no now think about it? The present is immediately the past. The future is just some conceptualization in the present.

So you can see how these are all intertwined together. We cannot have a present without a past that phenomena can 'turn into' from the present as present becomes past. Really there is no present you can find other than the intuitive 'waking up'. But the present that deceives us is dependently originated as intertwined with past and future. Past and future happen in the present as thought. But if past and future are dependent on the present then the reverse is also true because they are all an entwined conceptualization. You can say we are in the 'now' like Eckhardt Tolle, but it is important to realize that there is a timelessness to awareness where notions of time flit through like shooting stars in the sky.

In meditation it is like a group of birds going to a bird feeder. First one thought and then the next. You hold each one for a moment and then another bird flies onto the feeder. Trying to hold onto the past or create the right future can be like trying to hold onto one of those birds and have it always at the feeder. It's just not going to happen. All is transient.

sinewaves

Yes, I see what you mean - essentially, the notion of a present moment is false as it is immediately the past, the past does not exist either as it as a former present, and the future is just a concept in the present. Is this correct? Can I ask what you mean when you say that it is important to realize that there is a timelessness to awareness? Are you saying don't be bound by the three ideas of time?

Jeffrey

Yes, don't be bound. It is just a content and not the nature. I think there is something like time automatically in awareness, but the time we want to get back to forward to or away from is kind of samsaric. So we know it's just thinking even though every thought has a quality of awareness. And all there is is thoughts, but they are just thinking and we can let go of any of them (thoughts).

Jeffrey

Incidentally I am just spewing data I have read. I am actually fully engrossed in time. I count down each hour passed to when I can have a smoke. I limit myself for health reasons (don't inhale, not too often etc)

So I am very much conscious of time. But in letting go of thinking in both sitting and daily awareness I am true to my ideas of deconstructing the three times.

sova

So be positive in your investigations get inspired.



what is the smallest possible division of time? this is not a scientific question, but an experiential question.

sinewaves

thank you both.

anataman

You might want to look at it another way. Time and space are the dimensions of reality. Everything is happening at once, but your awareness is just snaking through and energising the fabric of reality… In that sense it is timeless.

sinewaves

Could you explain what you mean by dimensions of reality, and energising the fabric of reality? Thank you for your input, by the way.

anataman

The dimensions of reality are 'the dimensions of our mental reality'. In simplistic terms it is the capacity of the universe to be filled with mental formations.

The universe is energised by our (re-)quest to know our true self, and that energy manifests as pure awareness. The fact that we discriminate between temporal and spatial dimensions such that we can move back and forth, up and down, left and right in space but only forward in time, gives us a reference point by which we understand the world. After all if you could move back and forth in time as well as space - where would you be - everywhere at once… How can we understand that?

Just a thought - don't get entangled by it.

sinewaves

I can understand the aspects of no time, but I have an assignment due in one month - so I am conscious of time, but by daily awareness and in practice, I am unbound by time. Is this correct?

seeker242

sinewaves said:

What is Uchiyama saying here in relation to being shackled to a a conception of the past?

Thank you.

I think he's saying that being shackled to the past causes suffering when the past situation changes to something else. You still hold onto the past situation in your mind, but that situation is long gone in reality. And because situations are constantly changing, it's better to not shackle yourself to anything. Because whatever you shackle yourself to, that is going to change. I think he says that simply thinking about the past/future is not wrong, but shackling yourself to it is the problem.

sinewaves

Thank you. Would it be correct in saying that past experiences can offer insight/knowledge, but not to define oneself by a past experience, because situations are constantly changing i.e. who you were then in so not who you are now?

anataman

sinewaves said:

I can understand the aspects of no time, but I have an assignment due in one month - so I am conscious of time, but by daily awareness and in practice, I am unbound by time. Is this correct?

in the everyday knowledge aspect you are bound by time - in the wisdom aspect you realise you are not. Wisdom transcends knowledge.

sinewaves

I understand. Just to clarify - how does one realise they are not bound by time - through practice and daily awareness?

anataman

yes practice practice practice. Wisdom comes slowly…

Not that I have any yet!

Jeffrey

sinewaves said:

I understand. Just to clarify - how does one realise they are not bound by time - through practice and daily awareness?

Yes. Through meditation, study, daily awareness, and hearing teachings. The first you want to develop stability in meditation.

zenff

sinewaves said:

I am new to both zen, and this community, and I wish to start of by saying hello, and thanks to lincoln for allowing me to join.

My question is in relation to my understanding of time.

IMHO when you want to do Zen you don’t need to understand time. No-one really does.
I hope that’s a relief?

My first instruction was to count my breath in meditation, and also through the day on empty moments like when I was waiting for the bus.
My mind is shackled in all kinds of nonsense and counting the breath is creating some space.

sinewaves

good advice - do you find that counting during empty moments distracts you from the world around you, or can one do both?

Jeffrey

counting would refocus attention on something where you notice easier when you drift off. I think?

sinewaves

I didn't quite understand that Jeffrey. forgive me.

Jeffrey

if you count you would pay mind to the counting. in meditation what happens is we drift off from the counting. and then we catch ourselves and say, "I am supposed to be meditating". And at that point we return to the meditation and the counting.

good advice - do you find that counting during empty moments distracts you from the world around you, or can one do both?

So if you are in daily awareness you can distract yourself from the world around you by counting. For example if you are washing dishes counting would center you in the counting and the dishes. You would be aware of the counting rather than thoughts about your co-workers or whatever you think of.

The counting orientates you in the present. You notice easily when you have stopped counting. Isn't that true that you would notice and recognize where you have stopped counting? You simply say, "I have forgotten counting". And then you return to the counting and the present moment.

zenff

Just count.

anataman

Just rest and be mindful of the present moment. You are not trying to distract yourself from the world around you. Count, but be mindful that you are counting. Breath but be mindful of breathing. Clean but be mindful of cleaning.

Bring your mind home to the present moment. That is where you are real and exist. That is the point of the dharma.

seeker242

sinewaves said:

Would it be correct in saying that past experiences can offer insight/knowledge, but not to define oneself by a past experience, because situations are constantly changing i.e. who you were then in so not who you are now?

I think so! I think the Buddha though so too. He talks about verbal action here, but it can be applied to any kind of action, IMO.

"Having performed a verbal act, you should reflect on it... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful verbal action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally refreshed and joyful, training day and night in skillful mental qualities."

— MN 61