Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Is it really worth doing a bit of meditation?

DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
When I was running a Buddhist group I'd encourage people to try and do a little bit of meditation each day, saying that even 5 or 10 minutes was worthwhile.
The problem is that from long experience of meditation I reckon that real progress requires at least an hour a day, and that doing less amounts to treading water. Or to put it another way, if somebody has a spare half hour then maybe they'd be better going for a nice walk than sitting on a cushion.
Your thoughts?
«13

Comments

  • Surely 5 or 10 minutes of meditation is worthwhile if one understands that they are practicing.
    With the intention of having the ability to sit for longer periods.
    Like running or swimming.
    10 minutes is much longer than five for someone who is starting out at following the breath.
    For a new mother or a man who has to work hard to support his family, any spare time might be better spent sleeping.
    DharmaMcBumKundo
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    robot said:


    With the intention of having the ability to sit for longer periods.

    Sure, but if it never gets beyond short periods, is it really worth doing?
  • Nice walking med maybe? Otherwise we might have to rely on 'unreal progress'?

    "Without going out of doors one may know the whole world; without looking out of the window, one may see the Way of Heaven. The further one travels, the less one may know. Thus it is that without moving you shall know; without looking you shall see; without doing you shall achieve." (Lao Tse)
    JainarayanInvincible_summerKundoDaltheJigsaw
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited December 2013

    robot said:


    With the intention of having the ability to sit for longer periods.

    Sure, but if it never gets beyond short periods, is it really worth doing?
    I guess if someone sat everyday for a short period of time, they would have to decide whether they were seeing any benefit or whether they should extend their sit or quit doing it.
    Why would someone continue doing it if they weren't getting something out of it?
    I imagine that most people who are interested in meditation, read some books or listen to their teacher to establish how it's going for themselves.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    robot said:


    Why would someone continue doing it if they weren't getting something out of it?

    Because people running Buddhist groups tell them it's worthwhile?
    ;)
    anataman
  • robot said:


    Why would someone continue doing it if they weren't getting something out of it?

    Because people running Buddhist groups tell them it's worthwhile?
    ;)
    Lol. So it is really the instructor who needs to question his technique, not the meditators?
    Davidanataman
  • I tend to agree that five or ten minutes is not enough. That I should work toward increasing my sitting time.
    I've been using an iPad app to gradually increase my sits. I have a ways to go to get to a hour, but I'll get there for sure.
    lobster
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    I've talked to a lot of lay-Buddhists over the years, half an hour a day seems to be the norm. But I don't think it's enough.
  • @SpinyNorman I understand why you say that. However as you may know an hour can seem like five minutes. My formal sitting times is creeping towards an hour and seems like five minutes. When it gets to about one hour twenty, I will have to change it, otherwise I could end up dharmified [a technical term].

    For those still struggling . . . maybe do some prostrations or chant to Mrs Buddha . . . if five minutes is too much of a good thing . . .

    image

  • The problem is that from long experience of meditation I reckon that real progress requires at least an hour a day...
    Your thoughts?

    There is a certain level of personal judgement involved in determining 'real progress'.
    At a stage when time is of the essence I suppose it seems logical to maximise consistent focus.
    For me, rather than duration per se as a touch stone, it returns to 'what are you doing?' sort of moment by moment.
    lobster
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Zero said:


    There is a certain level of personal judgement involved in determining 'real progress'.

    Yes, that's true. And there is a quantity v quality question.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    lobster said:


    That should you keep out of mischief for twenty minutes or longer . . .

    I used to say similar things to beginners to encourage them ( including "Every Little Helps!" ).
    But I think another problem with short sits is that it can take beginners 15 or 20 minutes to basically calm the mind, which I think of as the preparatory period. So if people never get beyond that length of time then they don't really get the point and they don't experience meditation proper.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    I used to compare meditation to taking physical exercise, where even a little is beneficial. Now I think it's more like learning a musical instrument, where you just have to put the time in, regularly and solidly. It's like that old joke, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" ;)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Jayantha said:


    It takes many lifetimes, or if you're not into that, many years, to develop the practice...

    I agree, but I'm suggesting that 15 or 20 minutes a day isn't going to develop anything.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran

    Jayantha said:


    It takes many lifetimes, or if you're not into that, many years, to develop the practice...

    I agree, but I'm suggesting that 15 or 20 minutes a day isn't going to develop anything.
    and I'm disagreeing :)

    depends on what you want to develop.. if you REALLY want to develop, become a monk! that's my plan. If we have a spouse and kids and a house and a job and all the trappings of mundane life, then of course it will naturally be harder to practice and it cannot be your main goal as you have many mundane responsibilities, but I still feel any practice you can get in is worth it.
    Invincible_summerriverflowanataman
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    lobster said:

    My formal sitting times is creeping towards an hour and seems like five minutes.

    An hour of meditation feels like I lived 100 years still to me! lol. Sadu friend Lobster :)
    Yorkshireman
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    When I was running a Buddhist group I'd encourage people to try and do a little bit of meditation each day, saying that even 5 or 10 minutes was worthwhile.
    The problem is that from long experience of meditation I reckon that real progress requires at least an hour a day, and that doing less amounts to treading water. Or to put it another way, if somebody has a spare half hour then maybe they'd be better going for a nice walk than sitting on a cushion.
    Your thoughts?

    It depends on what sort of "progress" you're talking about and how much "progress" the practitioners wants or expects.

    Someone meditating for ten minutes may not progress as quickly as someone sitting for an hour, but is that the point?
    riverflowYorkshireman
  • I may have it all wrong, but sitting meditation does not work for me. It's like I'm trying to force the issue. Of course, meditation means different things to different people. I can sit on a rock at the beach, looking around, and I may get an insight. Or I'll stop what I'm doing and focus on something for a few minutes throughout the day. Doing the dishes or ironing is great for emptying the mind. I think Thich Nhat Hanh recommends that (maybe it was someone else who said it?). Some days are more productive than others. Yesterday it happened as I was pushing the grocery cart out of the supermarket to my truck. Something in the store got my mind focusing on it and I ran with it. That's just a personal observation how it works for me. I don't think there's any right or wrong way.
    MaryAnneDharmaMcBumanataman
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    I may have it all wrong, but sitting meditation does not work for me. It's like I'm trying to force the issue.

    Then with all due respect you are doing it wrong. If you feel like you're forcing it, then you probably are. Meditation practices, such a shamatha, ask the practitioner to simply rest on an object, such as the breath, and as as thought's and emotions arise, observe and recognize them and then simply letting go.

    If you have a meditation instructor or have access to one, this is a perfect and quite common question. It's one of those things that a little one-on-one can help with.
    That's just a personal observation how it works for me. I don't think there's any right or wrong way.
    I would say this is true, provided you are, in fact, meditating.


  • Having just come back from a two day meditation retreat, I gotta say that prolonged meditation can be very intense. The mind really does move and shift in unexpected ways and that can be very challenging to cope with. I certainly would not push anyone towards doing it. In fact, I shall go as far as to say that for a great number of people it just isn't a good idea at all.

    As for progress, toward what? What are we trying to achieve exactly? I have seen myself and other people get into what seems like settled and "elevated" mind sets only to be totally thrown off by something out "in the world" causing quite a bit of distress. In fact, my own very teacher always cautions the sangha at the end of long retreats to be careful and gently ease back into everyday life.

    Meditative techniques are potent means and I think that 20-40 minutes a day is just about right for many people. You can get the calming and grounding effect but without going into the real deep stuff. One must have a real calling to do intensive meditation and certainly a real teacher.
    MaryAnneriverflowDharmaMcBumanataman

  • I used to compare meditation to taking physical exercise, where even a little is beneficial.
    Now I think it's more like learning a musical instrument, where you just have to put the time in, regularly and solidly.
    It's like that old joke, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" ;)

    Irony is, even with exercise, what 'little' benefit may exist would likely require a similar extent of 'effort' to farm in terms of frequency and focus as learning an instrument say thus likely equating broadly to the same in terms of expenditure of time.
    I think in some part, there is a role each for a teacher and a student to take in that relationship and those in a teaching position should aim to beat themselves up at least as infrequently as those not in a teaching position... perhaps even less.
    Perhaps the subtlety of one's own practice provides a suitable guage of the type of response / encouragement that may be helpful at that particular stage - a very intimate relationship.
    For some that may be a 'do as much as you can' reassurance - for others, it may be 'do more' reassurance.
    I've found some truth to this: students present their own solutions and suitable masters reflect.
  • Sitting meditation is simply a reminder. (The Pali word usually translated as "mindfulness", sati more literally means "to remember" or "to recollect.") In meditation, we simply sit down to allow the breath to remind us that everything has the quality of the breath: it arises, it is, it passes away. (Anicca) Nor does the breath belong to us. We can't hold onto it. (Anatta) We can't claim ownership of it. And as soon as we've taken in a nice, refreshing breath, we need to exhale and refresh again. (Dukkha)

    In that sense, even a single mindful breath is enough, if it encourages us to let go of what does not belong to us. Ajahn Chah said the path was one of letting go more and more until we realize that nothing belongs to us. And Thanissaro Bhikkhu has a lovely metaphor of meditation being like fresh water we take with us on a journey into the ocean. We'll need to replenish, returning again and again to land to find a well. Or we can take a miniature distillery with us and turn saltwater (the wide world) into our sustenance. The latter is more sustainable.
    lobsterpoptartInvincible_summerJeffrey
  • ^^ It does make one wonder, doesn't it?
    Chazriverflow
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    ^^ poptart is mos def on to something. The whole idea of attaining something or accomplishing something doesn't really fit well.

    yes, you can get better at something through continued practice, but I'm not keen on the idea of becoming a "better" meditator. And I'm not sure what there is to "accomplish".

    In the Heart Sutra we'll read:

    "There's no attainment and no non-attainment."

    We can quibble over the semantics of attainment or accomplishment, but I think that foolish.

    I think, and my teachers agree, get in as much practice as possible, even if it's only a couple minutes.
    riverflowanatamanKundo
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Here is a thought - IMHO it's time to start bringing mindfulness into normal activity @SpinyNorman - but maybe I don't understand the point of the thread.
    poptartDavid
  • What I heard is that you have to teach yourself to enjoy meditation. So you do it because you are looking forward to it. Then why would you not do it?
    lobsterriverflow
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Guess what - I bought a lovely silk embroidered 'purple om' piece of material when I first got into buddhism/spiritualism. As a student I put it on my wall; none understood why I did that; when I got married, started working and had kids, there was nowhere to display it so I folded it up and put it away. Recently I found it and thought 'what the hell am I going to do with it?'

    So…

    After reflecting on the fact that I have done nothing with it for 20 years I am having a meditation cushion made out of it. I'll post a picture of it when it's made, early new year.
    ChazMaryAnnelobsterInvincible_summer
  • The only bad meditation is when you think you have bad thoughts.
  • An hour of meditation feels like I lived 100 years still to me! lol. Sadu friend Lobster
    The lama on my street, yes I really do have one, not sure if still there . . . used to run local intro to meditation classes. When I attended, he would divide five minutes into one minute meditations on the breath, an image, a sound, a physical part of the body (the base chakra I seem to remember), awareness of the environment of sitting - that sort of thing.

    Listening to people's experiences they had clearly been struggling for ages in those few minutes.

    . . . as @genkaku has wisely said, we are 'fake meditators' in the beginning . . .

    Another not so local lama on an intro course I attended during a Christmas week retreat said he took an hour to 'settle' and would regularly sit for six hours at a stretch . . . . :rolleyes:

    Meditation is not a joke. We are (speaking from experience). Meditation is called practice because that is what is required. :om:
    Chazrobot
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited December 2013
    genkaku said:

    Let's come clean, shall we? At the beginning of any endeavor, things are pretty fake-y. Sit down, cross your legs, erect your spine, shut up and focus the mind ... just like all the other good little Buddhists in the room. It feels and is pretty contrived. The clock ticks, the mind spirals off into wondrous wonders. Maybe I'll get enlightened in the next five minutes -- wouldn't that be the cat's whiskers?! Or maybe it's refighting the fight you had an hour ago with your girl/boyfriend. Or whether the asparagus will get over-cooked if you sit here much longer. Or geez, I coulda had a V-8!

    OK ... so you fake it... dying to get enlightened even if what "enlightened" means is a bit vague. Yummy, of course, but vague too when push comes to shove. Whatever it is, it's got to be better than the unsatisfactory stuff that led me to try meditation in the first place.

    Looked at in one way, meditation is probably just the least dumb of all the dumb, fraudulent things I could be doing: At least you're not hurting anyone else, probably. So you blew 20 minutes ... so you're a 'spiritual materialist' ... so what? If you don't like this form of spiritual materialism, you can always go and find a better one, right?

    Some stick with it, despite all the virtuous nit-picking and hallelujah choruses. Sit with the phoney because s/he's the only phoney in town. Some quit and take up knitting. Fine. But as with any other endeavor, it's out of the phoney-baloney that some skill and some honest return make themselves known. Will you be holy as a kumquat? I wouldn't bet good money on it. But bit by bit the skill speaks its mind.

    What it's saying, I have yet to figure out. :)

    best... post... ever.. I may have to steal it for my blog if you don't mind me properly quoting the source !

    the least dumb of all the dumb things I could be doing... frickin CLASSIC! lol
    lobsteranatamanDharmaMcBumsilver
  • I actually look at meditation as a time out to look at my map and see where I'm going. More often then not I'll have something planned for the day or I'm just about to do something but after meditating for 15 minutes it'll come clear to me that it wasn't such a good idea after all.

    It keeps me on a healthy and positive path which is of vital importance to me, especially considering I have a pretty addictive personality, meditation helps me break free from this mindset and prevent bad decisions. But most of all, it gives me clarity, even after short periods of time :)
    lobsterKundo
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Chaz said:

    Someone meditating for ten minutes may not progress as quickly as someone sitting for an hour, but is that the point?

    I'm suggesting that there won't be any progress with 10 minutes a day.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    anataman said:

    Here is a thought - IMHO it's time to start bringing mindfulness into normal activity @SpinyNorman - but maybe I don't understand the point of the thread.

    In my experience it's very difficult to be properly mindful off the cushion if one is spending little time on the cushion.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited December 2013
    genkaku said:

    The problem arises when anyone tries to define or limit what that "something" is.

    So we have no idea why we're meditating or what to expect? I don't see how this is helpful.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    poptart said:

    I wonder if there's a degree of spiritual materialism in this clock watching?

    No, it's a recognition that more time on the cushion generally means more progress. That's one of the reasons people go on retreat.
    lobsterseeker242
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    I don't think there's any right or wrong way.

    But there are effective and ineffective approaches. And what I'm arguing here is that not doing very much is an example of ineffectiveness.
  • Another example of ineffectiveness is clinging to dogma.

    Try opening your mind. It is really more effective than putting your bum on a cushion.
    riverflowDavidKundo
  • There I was minding my own business, when in less than a minute I became enlightened.
    So a minute can be an effective time interval.

    Of course some of you know better than to waste your minutes on others realisations . . . :buck:
  • "Slow but steady wins the race." ~ Buddha Aesop
    Jeffrey
  • And what I'm arguing here is that not doing very much is an example of ineffectiveness.

    Agreed on that point. I don't think most people will get anywhere by doing nothing. Want muscles? Lift weights... same idea, gotta do something to get somewhere.

    What I mean is that I don't think that setting aside 20, 30, 60 minutes, sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else is for everyone, or is the only definition of meditation. As I said, I can't do that. I've had better insights by what may be just introspection and contemplation in another way: I do it by walking or even sitting and looking out a window.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited December 2013
    poptart said:


    Try opening your mind. It is really more effective than putting your bum on a cushion.

    Please describe your method for "opening your mind", and then explain how it's more effective than sitting meditation.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    edited December 2013


    What I mean is that I don't think that setting aside 20, 30, 60 minutes, sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else is for everyone, or is the only definition of meditation.

    Good thing, too, because what you describe -
    sitting with eyes closed and blocking out all else
    Isn't really meditation - at least not what I was taught.

    Is that what you were taught?

    I was taught to meditate with eyes open and to not block out anything.



    lobster
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited December 2013
    riverflow said:

    Every teacher I have ever read, watched in videos, or speak in a dharma talk has stressed consistency of practice rather than the length of each session. Better to meditate 15 minutes daily than to meditate two hours straight once a week.

    That's pretty much the kind of thing I would say to beginners, and of course consistency is vital, but my point here is that 15 minutes a day isn't really going to go anywhere useful.
Sign In or Register to comment.