Prozac...

jae

has anyone managed to come off medication once they have led a healthier lifestyle (mind and body)?

ThailandTom

I haven't, well I did for a while and relapsed

MaryAnne

I took prozac for a time, once.... years ago.
I was experiencing (temporary) depression, due to my home life circumstances, as well as because I stopped taking my thyroid meds about 10 months ealier - (decided to do that on my own; not advisable!) .
But after 5-6 months of prozac, and counseling, and getting back on my thyroid meds.... I was then weaned off the prozac within a 2-3 week period and everything was just fine again.
Well, the home life issues took more time and counseling, but at least my depression was resolved and I could cope better with a clearer head and all.

vinlyn

I was on a rather low dose of Paxil for a couple of years when my son was in serious legal trouble. After retiring to Thailand I decided to get off it, read up on it, and very, very gradually cut my dose until I was down to nothing. I can't say I suffered doing it, but considering the low dose I was on, and how slowly I cut even that, I was surprised at how stressful the getting off it was.

MaryAnne. I had to stop Prozac after only one dose. Gave me serious heart palpitations immediately.

MaryAnne

^ I was also on a very low dose of Prozac. I think it was like 10 mg or something like that. It was the lowest dose they prescribe- I know that because I was hesitant to start an anti-depressant and said so. The doc assured me it was the very lowest dose.

But yea, meds affect different people different ways, for sure.

jae

@ThailandTom @MaryAnne @vinlyn...thanks for the comments..I've been taking it for 18 years, 11 on 20mgs and 7 on 40mgs.

Tried coming off the wrong way a few times but really want to be free of it...my GP says they dont really know the long term side affects..I'm not experiencing any negative problems...and my probems are managed.

I would just like to stand on my own two feet.

Straight_Man

@jae -- if you are managed WITH it AND having no bad effects with it, I would advise sticking with it. Only change what is bad for you.... And get a doctor's help deciding if it is bad for you. ALL meds are bad for some people-- and before someone chimes in about something like aspirin never being bad, some folks are allergic to it (including my mother).

I am not a doctor, so my advice is from someone who tried playing doctor on himself and found out it is not a good idea to do so. And now does not do so.

jae

@Straight_man..hi, thanks for your comment 'if it aint broke don't fix it' I understand what you are saying..nice to meet you

Straight_Man

One thing you COULD do is talk to your doctor and see if the Prozac is needed still in the doctor's opinion. Happy to virtually meet you also.

jae

@Straight_man...once I'm confident re abstinence of alcohol I intend to wean myself off...with medical guidance.be happy cyber chum

vinlyn

Straight_Man said:

One thing you COULD do is talk to your doctor and see if the Prozac is needed still in the doctor's opinion. Happy to virtually meet you also.

Usually I would agree with this. However, two doctors told me I should continue the Paxil due to my high blood pressure. I went off it anyway, and am now down to needing the lowest dosage of BP medicine since I started taking it almost 15 years ago. My doc put me on two different cholesterol drugs (so far), both of which I had a negative reaction to, and a third which I would have had I not done my own research before actually taking it (that med can cause tachycardia...which I already have).

Get medical advice, but ask a lot of questions and be persistent.

jae

@vinlyn...just as well you did your research...

anataman

@Jae - sometimes a crutch can be helpful; have you ever looked around and seen people walking with crutches but not really leaning on them for support - well sometimes some drugs are like that.

If you see that they are not really supporting you - you don't need them especially with anti-depressants.

jae

@antaman I hear you

Theswingisyellow

Yes. Lexiapro acted as a bridge for me. There was a time and place for it but it became viewed as a hindrance for me. I came to realize depression was part of what was my life, running from it didn't make sense, if my mind was dulled I could never know it or be with it. That was the hard part for, steering into the storm and letting it be what it was. Go slow. Everyone is different. The best way for me was to be mindful and by being mindful I took depression off its high horse, I got to know it, to sit with it I no longer feared it for it just as all emotions, marked by impermanence. I began with an audio cd mindfulness through depression by Kabat Zinn. I am no mental health expert I can only relate my experience, though I do think mindfulness can be a powerful in any aspect of life
May you be well happy and peaceful

jae

@Theswingisyellow..I started reading a book called overcoming depression...I also had a little CBT ....the book and the CBT refered to mindfulness and steping back and looking at negatives from inside your head but everyone learns differently and although i was always listening I don't think I heard until recently

Theswingisyellow

Jae many blessings on your path. As hard as it may be stick with it. This will sound stupid but I would probably be dead having not encountered this path. My depression was a monster, now I can say hi to it and sometimes laugh at it. We each need to find our way, this was mine and I will always be grateful, it is no small thing in my life.

anataman

Straight_Man said:

One thing you COULD do is talk to your doctor and see if the Prozac is needed still in the doctor's opinion. Happy to virtually meet you also.

Hi @Straightman - sound advice- but sadly, many general practitioners don't really know or understand much about the drugs they are prescribing. Antidepressants work on the theory that there is a chemical imbalance in the brain and mostly this relates to neurotransmitters such as serotonin and dopamine. Unfortunately, these 'neurotransmitters' are found elsewhere in the body and the side effects they cause can be worse than the depression. In fact some antidepressants can cause depression if given to the wrong group of patients

I think people should be made aware of the fact that depression can basically (ok Psychiatrists refine what I am saying) be divided into a 'reactive' depression where life events cause an emotional response and 'clinical' depression where this a depressed affect that becomes chronic and life-changing…

Drugs may help the second case but the first… diagnose and treat the cause of the reactive depression- money problems, relationship problems, bereavement, self deprecation, obesity, the list can go on and on…

Where possible get off drugs and alcohol and then evaluate your life in sobriety…

Mettha

vinlyn

I agree to a large extent, @anataman.

My newer doctor here gave me a prescription for a day-by-day depressant, for those occasional days I was feeling down. I refused. Told him one doesn't have to be "up" and "happy" all the time.

EvenThird

I can't really help, as I take it for a completely different reason and haven't been on it all that long.. but here's my experience- I take a 20-40mg dose of prozac for the majority of every month (but never the whole month) to be closer to normal. It's safe for me to jump on and off it with no side effects because I am not taking it for anxiety or depression. However I do notice I have to "deal" more with my issues, but this might just be because said "issues" derive from mental illness more than anything. Meditation and puja has been noticably helpful for me, in addition to my meds.

I wish you luck @jae in whatever decision you decide to take.

Jeffrey

If it isn't broke don't fix it is my advice. But you can give going off a try. Just go back on if you need to.

Jeffrey

Quiting drinking for me made me have more symptoms of mania because I removed a depressant. So I had extreme paranoia and loose associations. When the alcohol tapered off I went back on lower doses of anti-psychotics.

Then I got psychotic voices and went on a VERY high amount of anti-psychotic. And that was a blessing because though I couldn't get rid of voices ALL of my mania and 'word salad' slash loose associations are gone.

Today I am on a lot of antipsychotics but because I have a friend to spend time with my voices are mostly better. I also got better from a gluten free diet. So maybe try altering your diet. Experiment.

AllbuddhaBound

Research suggests the best treatment for these problems is a combination of medication and talk therapy. The goal of talk therapy is to usually help a person become resilient enough to weane themselves off of medication. There are many people who have eventually worked their way off meds.

ThailandTom

AllbuddhaBound said:

Research suggests the best treatment for these problems is a combination of medication and talk therapy. The goal of talk therapy is to usually help a person become resilient enough to weane themselves off of medication. There are many people who have eventually worked their way off meds.

This is exactly what I intend to do next month, it is going to be costly so I have been saving up. I finally found a decent Western therapist who works alongside a medical practitioner who has knowledge of benzodiazpines, so I shall be talking and tapering.

I think that as well as a healthy diet and exercise and all add up to a very positive outcome.

EvenThird

I wish you luck in your treatment and healing @ThailandTom !

jae

Good morning....@EvenThird @AllbuddhaBound @Jeffrey @vinlyn @anataman @Theswingisyellow @MaryAnne @ThailandTom @Straight_Man

Thank you all so much for your words of encouragement and support you are all 'awesome' and 'insightful'.

Its very warming to hear you are all managing ... long may it continue, good luck to all.

I agree stongly with @ThialandTom regarding the excersise, I love walking (I'm very lucky I have such beautiful beaches and cliff paths to ramble and they are all free!) it really does get my head 'in the right place'...

Also the first time I ever experienced meditation was when I used to do a keep fit class called 'body balance' a mixture of Tai Chi, Yoga and pilates...at the end we would have 10mins of laying down and listening to beautiful music whilst the instructor told us how to breathe and talked about imagining 'golden light'... at first I felt really uncomfortable lying in a room full of strangers trying to relax but the more I did it the quicker I learnt to relax,it always left me feeling calm.

I'm so glad I have started the meditation and new research on mindfulness..... its lead me here where I can talk freely, learn from others and start to heal ...thanks again.

.

Hamsaka

Antidepressants 'normalize' your brain's re-uptake of seratonin (mostly) and norepiniphrine. They DON'T 'dull' or sedate your day to day emotions, or bombard your brain with endorphins (like alcohol and narcotics do) so you don't 'feel' what is actually happening. They merely re-establish a balance that has been thrown off kilter by really hard circumstances OR a genetic predisposition to lower than average seratonin levels.

Of course, normalized seratonin (et al) levels have an obvious effect upon your moment to moment emotions. Emotions arising from unbalanced neurochemistry are distorted; and that is on top of the distortion our habitual thinking creates in our emotions.

*IF* you have true seratonin-mediated depression, antidepressants are a damn life saver!! And a temporary time of taking them while cultivating your Dharma path, working with a therapist whom you really jive with, and pouring yourself full of self-compassion is sure to relieve the depression.

Depression is a delusion. Our natural state of being is 'joy' (the Buddhist 'joy', ie, peaceful, interested, focused, engaged). Antidepressants are ONE of several modern treatments for depression, and work best when used in deliberate conjunction with other modalities so well described by everyone else here. They rarely work well 'alone' because depression is also habitual, delusional trains of thought, and unless those are corrected, all the seratonin balance in the world won't make a difference.

Gassho

anataman

It's just a shame that it has become regarded that a reduction i the quantity of a chemical in such minute doses in our 'brain' at any one time can be the cause of such suffering… And bombarding that depleted brain with a synthetic analogue can be regarded as a treatment.

One of the biggest issues I had when I studied neuroscience - was that if you overdo some drugs you get a 'rebound effect'. i.e. the production of the substance you are trying to rebalance is suppressed and the natural result is dependence on the synthetic and depletion of the natural substance.

Gosh - gonna have to sit with the medicine buddha again tonight. Not a bad thing really.

Mettha

Hamsaka

@anataman;

It's just a shame that it has become regarded that a reduction i the quantity of a chemical in such minute doses in our 'brain' at any one time can be the cause of such suffering… And bombarding that depleted brain with a synthetic analogue can be regarded as a treatment.

Honest question; why is it a shame? We are not our brains, or the thoughts and distorted emotions that can arise from a subnormal neurochemistry. We aren't our imperfect bodies that cannot produce adequate insulin or other vital enzymes that result in muscular dystrophy. Our brain is part of the body, and subject to illness just the same. The seat of our 'being' is no more in the brain than it is in our ankle bones.

Gassho

ThailandTom

Hamsaka said:

Antidepressants 'normalize' your brain's re-uptake of seratonin (mostly) and norepiniphrine. They DON'T 'dull' or sedate your day to day emotions, or bombard your brain with endorphins (like alcohol and narcotics do) so you don't 'feel' what is actually happening. They merely re-establish a balance that has been thrown off kilter by really hard circumstances OR a genetic predisposition to lower than average seratonin levels.

Of course, normalized seratonin (et al) levels have an obvious effect upon your moment to moment emotions. Emotions arising from unbalanced neurochemistry are distorted; and that is on top of the distortion our habitual thinking creates in our emotions.

*IF* you have true seratonin-mediated depression, antidepressants are a damn life saver!! And a temporary time of taking them while cultivating your Dharma path, working with a therapist whom you really jive with, and pouring yourself full of self-compassion is sure to relieve the depression.

Depression is a delusion. Our natural state of being is 'joy' (the Buddhist 'joy', ie, peaceful, interested, focused, engaged). Antidepressants are ONE of several modern treatments for depression, and work best when used in deliberate conjunction with other modalities so well described by everyone else here. They rarely work well 'alone' because depression is also habitual, delusional trains of thought, and unless those are corrected, all the seratonin balance in the world won't make a difference.

Gassho

I still do not understand why in the US even the police use the term 'narcotics' for things like meth or cocaine or whatever, technically a narcotic is an drug in the opiate family. So things like diazepam, clonazepam, temazepam, lorazepam are technically not narcs, they are benozs and medications. However, they are horribly addictive.

I have been on what you would call anti depressants before I tried benzos as a means for help, mainly Sertoline (zoloft) and even after 6 weeks of daily use nada. I have heard some people becoming addicted to such drugs as well and having to be weened off of them. Like Benzos you cannot just quit, you need to taper as I found out or you may have terrible withdrawal symptoms and end up having a seizure or worse.

So with experience and still with a pretty hefty mental health disorder, I can see that pills IMO, in any shape or form should ONLY be a short term solution and used alongside quality therapy. There is literally very little difference to somebody taking a shot of heroin when they feel life is getting too much for them and taking a pill when they feel life is getting to much for them, the differences being heroin is illegal and injecting it is more dangerous and hits you quicker. You can shoot up pills though, I know people who have done so.

Hamsaka

@ThailandTom:

There is literally very little difference to somebody taking a shot of heroin when they feel life is getting too much for them and taking a pill when they feel life is getting to much for them

Hi TT, I agree, and will go as far to say there is NO difference at all The "life getting too much for them" is open to more definition, of course, probably too personal to make sweeping statements about, but anyway . . .

Yeah, in the states the word 'narcotics' which really means opioids is used also to mean all controlled substances, legal or illegal. Ironically the medical profession uses 'narcotics' the same way the police do, we just bunch them all up together. And yes, benzodiazepines (Xanax etc) are hideously addictive and withdrawls must be done with medical supervision or like you said, you can have seizures or even die from them.

The intention of a suffering person taking a pill or shooting heroin is pretty innocent, really, it's the cessation of suffering. There is nothing 'wrong' with doing something that relieves suffering, nothing morally bad or sinful. We eat lunch to cease our hunger pangs, and use the bathroom to avoid the suffering of incontinence (ha ha).

We don't even need the wisdom of the Buddha to help us discern the difference between skillful and unskillful means to cease our suffering. Here, we're talking skillful versus unskillful, rather than good versus evil. I worked in chemical dependency (the job before this one) and witnessed first hand heroin, opioid pill, benzodiazepine and alcohol withdrawl. Of course we could medicate them to lessen the symptoms and keep the life threatening ones away. Even so, the misery (and talk about mental and emotional Hell) is where the difference is in what one CHOOSES to use to alleviate their suffering.

I guess that's bare bones Dharma

What I don't agree with is this religious 'purism' against taking pills for mental or emotional ills. To me, it looks like a superstition, the bias against "pills" is overwhelmingly reactive and uneducated (re: medications and their uses, specifically).

Perhaps it harkens back to medieval fear and aversion of mental disorders. Then to make it worse, there's this false dichotomy between the brain and the body, and the western 'sense' that one's mind = one's self or being. This gets folks all mixed up and spewing superstitious nonsense about the evils of treating emotional problems with pills.

There is no difference between injecting yourself with insulin when you are a diabetic and taking a selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor when you suffer from depression. If there SEEMS to be a difference, specifically a 'moral' difference, it points to a misconception of your own (speaking to no one in particular) rather than a 'truth'.

Gassho

ThailandTom

Hamsaka said:

@ThailandTom:

There is literally very little difference to somebody taking a shot of heroin when they feel life is getting too much for them and taking a pill when they feel life is getting to much for them

Hi TT, I agree, and will go as far to say there is NO difference at all The "life getting too much for them" is open to more definition, of course, probably too personal to make sweeping statements about, but anyway . . .

Yeah, in the states the word 'narcotics' which really means opioids is used also to mean all controlled substances, legal or illegal. Ironically the medical profession uses 'narcotics' the same way the police do, we just bunch them all up together. And yes, benzodiazepines (Xanax etc) are hideously addictive and withdrawls must be done with medical supervision or like you said, you can have seizures or even die from them.

The intention of a suffering person taking a pill or shooting heroin is pretty innocent, really, it's the cessation of suffering. There is nothing 'wrong' with doing something that relieves suffering, nothing morally bad or sinful. We eat lunch to cease our hunger pangs, and use the bathroom to avoid the suffering of incontinence (ha ha).

We don't even need the wisdom of the Buddha to help us discern the difference between skillful and unskillful means to cease our suffering. Here, we're talking skillful versus unskillful, rather than good versus evil. I worked in chemical dependency (the job before this one) and witnessed first hand heroin, opioid pill, benzodiazepine and alcohol withdrawl. Of course we could medicate them to lessen the symptoms and keep the life threatening ones away. Even so, the misery (and talk about mental and emotional Hell) is where the difference is in what one CHOOSES to use to alleviate their suffering.

I guess that's bare bones Dharma

What I don't agree with is this religious 'purism' against taking pills for mental or emotional ills. To me, it looks like a superstition, the bias against "pills" is overwhelmingly reactive and uneducated (re: medications and their uses, specifically).

Perhaps it harkens back to medieval fear and aversion of mental disorders. Then to make it worse, there's this false dichotomy between the brain and the body, and the western 'sense' that one's mind = one's self or being. This gets folks all mixed up and spewing superstitious nonsense about the evils of treating emotional problems with pills.

There is no difference between injecting yourself with insulin when you are a diabetic and taking a selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor when you suffer from depression. If there SEEMS to be a difference, specifically a 'moral' difference, it points to a misconception of your own (speaking to no one in particular) rather than a 'truth'.

Gassho

Great post and love the objective thinking throughout

Steve_B

But don't you think there could be two main reasons to be on these medications?

There might be an intrinsic chemical problem, say serotonin uptake, that will always require medication.

There might be circumstances (health, emotion, other chemical dependencies, etc) where the person feels better with prozac, but when circumstances change the prozac isn't necessary.

So if I were in the first category, and always needed prozac, or lithium, or thyroid supplements, or whatever, I'd be glad there are biochemists on the planet who can figure out how to make this stuff.

And if I were in the second category and could change my circumstances and get free of my medicines, I'd be glad there are aerobics instructors or talk show hosts or parole officers on the planet who can inspire me to find the recognition (awakening) and willpower to grab hold of my life and change it.

Either way, there's a path, and things to be thankful for.

jae

@ThailandTom @Steve_B @ anataman @Hamsaka @EvenThird @MaryAnne @Vinlyn @Jeffrey @Allbuddhabound @Theswingisyellow @Straight_man

Wow...fantastic reading many, many thanks to all that have shared thier thoughts...

The mental health system where I live is very poor, all the different Doctors I've spoken to over the years have individually been knowledgable and kind.

However most of them are on a short housing licence (we have alot of rules in my small island regarding having local status etc...forgive me but I know little of politics so cant really explain all the ins and outs)

We are known for being an 'offshore tax haven'...great if you're rich..not so great if you are just a normal working local.

So with that in mind many professionals come and go...cant blame them house prices are ridiculous and the general cost of living also.

I would say my issues are not genetic but come from life events and bad choices that I have made. So my past experience of talking therapy etc has not worked for me as there has been little consistancy ...to have to tell your 'storey' to different health care practitioner's over and over is painful so I gave up self medicated with alcohol and bad habits.

I am fortunate, I have had a wonderful childhood and I'm blessed to be part of a close and loving family network, I have a job and own my own home....I care little for expensive holidays, designer clothes and flashy accessories....I'm more than happy in second hand clothes, get a buzz out being creative and upcycling what gets thrown in a skip in such a disposable society and if I want jewels I find them on the beach (dont you just love the way the ocean softens sharp glass..)

I guess its time for me to wake up, thank you mindfulness..not sure where I belong in a religious/spiritual dimension to be honest.. the little I know about different religions is that they all fundimentally point in the same direction and the basic 'Good points' are agreed...just a shame its the tiny differences create the conflict.

Have a nice day everyone....I'm happy at this moment and I'm enjoying it

Mettha...kindness..Amen

Jeffrey

@Jae, I love sand 'sanded' beach glass. We call it 'lucky glass' and we try to find blue ones.

jae

@jeffrey...'lucky glass' thats perfect..thanks for sharing that....

Hope all goes well with your new friend ...honesty is prob the best way forward but from my own experience, from a womans point of view (speaking for myself here girls) ...that kind of relationship has never worked even when the man has been upfront and honest I was not always honest with myself.

I thought 'his' feelings would change and invariably they didnt.

In my opinion men and women are very different when it comes to sex and love...buts thats just my opinion and what do I know!