Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Is pessimism indispensable?

As a Buddhist, it would be better to embrace pessimism - to see sorrow in worldly joys, despair in the midst of hope, and so on. This attitude alone would dilute our attachment to the world, to our desires also. A positive attitude will keep us attached to the world.

Unfortunately, the world encourages an optimistic attitude - and Buddhists, secular as well as religious, fall for such line of thinking, thereby reducing Buddhism to a new age, 'feel good' religion.

Truth is, Buddhism is all about meditating on the darker side of life - even something as grotesque as meditating on a corpse is found in Buddhism. All this negative stuff is encouraged so that people would drop their attachment. Never once did the Buddha say, 'be positive, be cheerful' etc. New age gurus say that to make money out of gullible people.

Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I don't think it needs to be pessimism OR optimism. They way you look at things should be on a case by case basis.
    riverflowInvincible_summerJeffrey
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Oh good grief..... words fail me. It seriously feels as if you have learnt nothing during your time here.
    cvalueVastmindlobsteranataman
  • federica said:

    Oh good grief..... words fail me. It seriously feels as if you have learnt nothing during your time here.

    The first noble truth is basically 'pessimistic' wisdom. Just saying.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    No, it's not. It's basic wisdom with a reason in NT2, and solutions to the situation, in NTs 3 & 4.

    There is no pessimism there. Your misinterpretation is frankly, staggering, all things considered.
    anatamanInvincible_summer
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    betaboy said:

    federica said:

    Oh good grief..... words fail me. It seriously feels as if you have learnt nothing during your time here.

    The first noble truth is basically 'pessimistic' wisdom. Just saying.
    That depends on how you interpret the first NT.

    If you take it as all life is dukkha, then it's pessimistic.

    But I don't see where it says that. When my neighbor took me out for a Christmas lunch a couple of days ago, that was not Dukkha.

    When I watched the fireworks on the Fourth Of July, that was not Dukkha.

    When I received a warm email from a long lost friend, that was not Dukkha.

    Life is a mix.

    lobsterriverflow
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    dukkha' translated into 'suffering' has already been acknowledged as a poor translation, by most literati connected with Buddhism.

    The word Dukkha has connections to the description of a ride experienced on a cart with a wonky wheel. Up-and-down, unsettled, funny at times (I remember riding in a hay cart on a bumpy countryside track, with my cousins; we could barely stop laughing, we were so tossed about, to us, it was immense fun!)

    so your 'pessimistic' description is about as far removed from the truth as I am from those giggly childhood days....
    Vastmindriverflow
  • I am not saying there is only suffering in the sense that we constantly experience pain, pain, pain. I am saying dukkha is more like existential angst in that ... even when we're happy, it is always lurking in the background. I wish people would understand that before reacting sharply.
    JeffreyDaiva
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    If we listed all the posters on this forum in order of degree of angst, you would always be number 1. And that's a shame that anyone is that negative about life.
    MaryAnneInvincible_summerEvenThird
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    edited December 2013
    federica said:

    And what you're failing to understand is that there IS no 'background'. Life IS exposed, here and now; it is what it is, in the open, the present and completely to the fore. Happy, sad, glad, content, frustrated, pain, easy, kind, difficult; it's all the same stuff, all at the same time. Dukkha.

    There IS no background.



    Either way, we must at least acknowledge the Buddha's words: that there is great sorrow in this world, and getting out of it is what nirvana is all about. If life were just a mixed bag, surely the Buddha wouldn't have suggested as radical an idea as nirvana. Just sayin'....
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Can you supply a quotation where the Buddha states there is great sorrow in the world?

    He stated he came to show there is Dukkha, and how to transcend Dukkha. he never said anything about 'getting out of it'......

    Read this, and thus learn something, please....
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited December 2013
    The first noble truth is basically 'pessimistic' wisdom. Just saying.
    @betaboy -- The first noble truth is almost word-for-word saying, "The sky is blue." Anyone who wishes to go into an optimistic or pessimistic funk about it is certainly welcome: The sky doesn't mind.
    vinlynriverflowpersonEvenThird

  • @betaboy -- Is there ANYTHING in this world, in your world, that actually makes you feel HAPPY, smile, and feel a certain level of JOY? Anything??

    Please name three (3) things that make you feel happy.... seriously.... I'm asking sincerely. The last time I asked you a direct question similar to this, you just flat out ignored me. I'm hoping you'll answer this time... :)
    vinlynriverflow
  • jaejae Veteran
    I was going to ask (from a beginners point of view)after reading this post if everyone thinks its wrong/selfish to be happy/optimistic?

    @federica so glad you commented I guess we all have issues of varying degrees but I certainly know when I'm feeling happy, I now understand being attached/addicted to a particular feeling/thing will eventually end in tears but I have always said happiness comes in moments ...and we've got to be awake so we don't miss those moments.

    @betaboy...do you live somewhere you could have a nice walk, or maybe volunteer for helping people, I love charity shops they always need help, you could meet some really interesting people there and maybe get a few bargains too...just an idea :) I truely hope you can find some joy....sending you loving kindness
    lobster
  • jaejae Veteran
    @federica...lovely to hear the connection to the donkey cart storey such a shame so much is lost in translation..its not surprising there are misunderstandings....

    Imagine how much is lost especially in the romantic Italian style ...just
    as an example (I dont speak italian btw but once had an italian boyfriend who told me that...or maybe he was just being italian! ;) no offence intended)

    That is simply a lovely way of remembering the word dukkha a good way to remember to laugh it off.., one person's tragedy, anothers comedy.
    EvenThird
  • betaboy said:


    As a Buddhist, it would be better to embrace pessimism - to see sorrow in worldly joys, despair in the midst of hope, and so on.

    This attitude alone would dilute our attachment to the world, to our desires also.
    A positive attitude will keep us attached to the world.

    New age gurus say that to make money out of gullible people.

    In a sense, I think if one has embraced optimism, then there would probably be benefit in embracing pessimism to the same extent also.
    Half empty or half full - there is a glass and a volume of water.

    I'm not sure that attachment to the 'world' is the issue as much as the propensity to attach.
    This inclination, I think, is beyond simply being optimistic or pessimistic and tackling it takes more than declarations and judgements.

    Who are the gullible people and are you also included in that group?
  • jaejae Veteran
    And before anyone berates me I'm not saying its good to laugh at others suffering only our own

  • What I take from much of the Buddhist teachings is that one should live In The Moment.
    Do not dwell on the past, nor hang your hopes on the future...but live in the moment - Now - and savor it for what it is; good OR bad.
    There is a natural 'balance' to life. Sorrow tempered with happiness, pain tempered with well being; night gives way to day; etc etc. Two sides to every coin. Yin & Yang. The Middle Way.
    Personally, if I have to choose a side I'm more willing to lean into... I'll choose the optimistic side, every time. :D

    Rainbows and Pixie Dust-
    PollyAnna*
    jaelobster
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited December 2013
    I am ride or die when it comes to PollyAnna...hahaha...
  • Vastmind said:

    I am ride or die when it comes to PollyAnna...hahaha...

    OK, I'm not sure what that means! ??? :-/
  • jaejae Veteran
    @Vastmind @MaryAnne....im looking forward to finding out !
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited December 2013
    MaryAnne said:

    Vastmind said:

    I am ride or die when it comes to PollyAnna...hahaha...

    OK, I'm not sure what that means! ??? :-/
    lololol...it's slang for ...I'll always be on her side....or I'll claim that name...or
    I'm standing for (riding with) ( in a car) with the person !Regardless of pros/cons
    I'm with that approach/view.

    I'm Pro Pollyanna !

    :clap: lololololol
    MaryAnne
  • MaryAnne said:


    @betaboy -- Is there ANYTHING in this world, in your world, that actually makes you feel HAPPY, smile, and feel a certain level of JOY? Anything??

    Please name three (3) things that make you feel happy.... seriously.... I'm asking sincerely. The last time I asked you a direct question similar to this, you just flat out ignored me. I'm hoping you'll answer this time... :)


    ::: crickets :::

    So. I guess the answer to my question - and the reaction to being put in the spotlight for the answer - is to slink off and open up yet another Debbie Downer, pessimistic, life sucks thread... ?

    So why are you ignoring me? Is it because I'm a woman? (an Old woman, to boot!)
    Is it because I won't just pat your hand and tsk tsk at you while trying to convince you that life IS wonderful?
    Or is it because I won't agree to wallow in your dooms day vision of Life in general?
    Tell me what makes you tick, Mus... I mean betaboy. :) I'm curious...
  • Attachment to life is overcome with impermanence
    Attachment to pleasure is overcome with reflection on suffering
    Attachment to peace is overcome by love
  • vinlyn said:

    If we listed all the posters on this forum in order of degree of angst, you would always be number 1. And that's a shame that anyone is that negative about life.

    Why is angst a shame? It just is. It doesn't need the added element of shame.
  • There are three types of Dukkha as taught somewhere by some teacher.

    The Dukkha of Dukkha. This means it can always get worse. If you have a tooth ache it doesn't mean that you can't in addition have a falling out with somebody. And if that happens it doesn't mean you will not also get a sickness.

    The Dukkha of change. We gain what we don't want and lose what we want.

    The Dukkha of being compound. I don't understand this one too much.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha
    Dukkha (Pāli; Sanskrit: duḥkha; Tibetan sdug bsngal) is a Buddhist term commonly translated as "suffering", "anxiety", "stress", or "unsatisfactoriness".[a] The principle of dukkha is one of the most important concepts in the Buddhist tradition. The Buddha is reputed to have said: "I have taught one thing and one thing only, dukkha and the cessation of dukkha." The classic formulation of these teachings on dukkha is the doctrine of the Four Noble Truths, in which the Truth of Dukkha (Pali: dukkha saccã; Sanskrit: duḥkha-satya) is identified as the first of the four truths.

    Dukkha is commonly explained according to three different categories:

    The obvious physical and mental suffering associated with birth, growing old, illness and dying.
    The anxiety or stress of trying to hold onto things that are constantly changing.
    A basic unsatisfactoriness pervading all forms of existence, because all forms of life are changing, impermanent and without any inner core or substance.

    The Buddhist tradition emphasizes the importance of developing insight into the nature of dukkha, the conditions that cause it, and how it can be overcome. This process is formulated in the teachings on the Four Noble Truths.
    Glow
  • @Jeffrey
    Why do you keep running interference for people who are being asked questions or asked to explain themselves? Are you their lawyer? ;-)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2013
    @MaryAnne

    Could you point out quotations from posts to explain your question of my 'running interference'? Also explain what you mean by 'running interference'. I have never heard that word. I don't honestly know at this time what you mean by your post.

    I do think people have right to be a downer. If that's what you mean by interference. Think how it feels to be a downer. Inside it doesn't feel good. If someone is too much down DON'T post in the thread and let those of us who don't mind depressing threads try and help the OP.

    As far as I know the mods don't mind if someone is depressed. If they are too crazy they will be dealt with, but @betaboy is NOT off the deep end. He just has some sadness about the world I guess.

    Thanks.

    betaboy
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    do not dispense indispensable wisdom, just dispense pessimism.
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Jeffrey, this is not the first time, nor the second, or third...
    several times when I or someone else (it's not always me, I'm not saying it is) asks or says something (to someone) that YOU find .... i don't know... too harsh, too pointed, too whatever, you seem to jump in and start explaining from their point of view.
    You just did it AGAIN in the post above. I asked betaboy a direct, specific question, regarding his feelings about things, and there you are... explaining/ telling me how it feels to be a downer, and how I should back off. That's all I'm saying.

    I know you mean well, and I think you're a real sweetheart, I really do.
    But Please let people speak for themselves when they are asked something directly or commented to specifically. :)

    If I misunderstood your post(s) in this situation, I apologize. Honest. But that doesn't change the fact it has happened several times before just the same...
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2013
    That's just as I see fit. I had something to say there. What you said was wrong in that we shouldn't try to keep negative people out of posting threads. You insinuated that he shouldn't be posting 'Debie Downer' things.

    I stuck up for @betaboy and I will continue to do similar unless @Federica or the like tells me not to. And of course if @betaboy doesn't want me to.
    betaboy
  • Jeffrey said:

    That's just as I see fit. I had something to say there. What you said was wrong in that we shouldn't try to keep negative people out of posting threads. You insinuated that he shouldn't be posting 'Debie Downer' things.

    I stuck up for @betaboy and I will continue to do similar unless @Federica or the like tells me not to.

    Ok, so it's NOT my imagination. You are betaboy's guard dog. Didn't realize....
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Also I am sticking up for the dharma. @betaboy is onto some interesting ideas that can give him/her insight imho. Of course he/she also needs to not get nihilistic. In my sense @betaboy has some good ideas.

    I am everybody on the forums bodyguard. That's what "i got your back" means. If someone is misunderstanding the dharma and calling you names such as 'Debie Downer' I would also have your back. It's not personal I just don't agree with your speech.

    So I don't really care if you shame me by calling me 'body guard'. That's immature, imho.
  • I'm not going to argue with you. I'll simply reiterate:
    Please let people speak for themselves when they are asked something directly or commented to specifically.
  • Thanks for the calm friendly suggestion. I will think about it. Maybe I made a mistake that I can learn from. You can always send me a PM if you don't want the thread cluttered.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2013
    If someone is discussing the OP topic and I have some input I will probably jump in the discussion. But if I am sensing that it is an AB conversation I will take your advice to heart.

    I will either flag or post to someone who is calling others names.

    I think AB conversations should be by PM, incidentally.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited December 2013
    @Jeffrey, @MaryAnne, pack it in, the pair of you.
    I take it neither of you want to spend Christmas behind bars and away from 'home' - right?

    Jeffrey, quit trying to defend what in this case is the indefensible. It's not your job to constantly rally to a cry which has not been given And yeah, Federica's telling you to quit.
    MaryAnne, quit baiting and being argumentative. Something you seem to be in the habit of doing. There is no legal obligation to respond, and kindly refrain from leaping to judgement when a requested response is not forthcoming.

    (Chances are it would have made you argue more, anyway.... :rolleyes: )

    If you're going to spat in public, that's how I'm going to deal with it.



    lobster
This discussion has been closed.