What buddha did was it really what a normal human being can do?

misecmisc1

hi all,

the first reaction to this question may usually come as this - of course, what buddha did - he did it as a human being - so obviously it can be done by a human being. moreover, what buddha taught was only for humans, so obviously it is possible for human beings to get awakened.

now, some of you shall be knowing that i am a hindu and not a buddhist. so the next thing, which may come to your mind is - since i am a hindu, that is why i may be thinking of buddha as an avatar of vishnu - but see, i have read somewhere that buddha was the 10th avatar of vishnu - but i do not believe in it - so you can keep it aside for the moment.

now coming to what actually made me think that what buddha did was very difficult, or even impossible, for a human being to do. if we see the story of buddha, when he was born, the astrologer commented that - he will be a great leader either in a form of a great king, or a great spiritual leader. now the first one is obvious as buddha or siddhartha was the son of a king, so obviously he can become a king - but spiritual leader this is something strange.

then, the day he left his kingdom, the story says - all the guards went asleep and so sidhartha, along with channa(his friend), moved out of the palace - so seems like it was destined for sidhartha to leave the palace and become a saint.

then, after practicing all ascetic practices, when he started eating normally and gained his health, then to know if he would become enlightened, he thought to place a bowl in a river and if the bowl will go upwards i.e. against the stream, he will become enlightened - then he placed the bowl in a river and the bowl went upstream, which confirmed to him that he will become enlightened. then he sat under the bodhi tree, with the pledge that he will not get up, until he became enlightened. so will this sort of thing happen for a normal human being - will any bowl go against the stream for a normal human being? or was siddhartha became awake or enlightented, because he was destined to do so?

also after becoming enlightened, he came back and turned his father, his wife and his son into spirituality - so his life was pretty cool - got born in a palace, with all facilities, got good education, got married, became father of a son, then left the palace - became enlightened - (i think in the meanwhile his father took care of his kingdom, i have not read about any major problems arising in his kingdom, due to absence of sidhartha from the palace) - then buddha finally teaching many people including his father, his wife and his son about his findings and taught how to end their suffering in their lives.

So the question comes down to - was siddhartha became awake or enlightented, because he was destined to do so - or just since he was a normal human being, he could do it.

now there have been monks like bodhidharma, dogen, milarepa - who practiced meditation for many years and then became awake - but these are few people which we see over centuries - so can a normal human being(who only meditates for say 2 hours in a day) become awakened?

well, i agree that we have the four NT, and the main thing for us is to end the suffering for ourselves, by not craving and not clinging to anything and also we should meditate to find peace in our mind.

but somehow, the above question came to my mind that is becoming awakened, or enlightened, or achiving nirvana, which only a very few people that too over centuries can get and the majority of others(though theoretically understanding all these spiritual teachings) are bound up by their karma to keep on continuing samsara?

any thoughts, please. metta to you and all sentient beings.

betaboy

It all boils down to karma. Each life you eliminate some karma so that eventually you will have very little karma left. In that particular life where you have little or no karma left, you become a Buddha. That's what happened to Sidharth. He too lived many, many lives - as a thief, murderer, butcher, and on. Then he slowly evolved into king, scholar, etc., and finally he became the Buddha after exhausting all residual karma.

misecmisc1

betaboy said:

It all boils down to karma. Each life you eliminate some karma so that eventually you will have very little karma left. In that particular life where you have little or no karma left, you become a Buddha. That's what happened to Sidharth. He too lived many, many lives - as a thief, murderer, butcher, and on. Then he slowly evolved into king, scholar, etc., and finally he became the Buddha after exhausting all residual karma.

well, then what is the parameter which decided that the suffering which siddhartha created for his father by leaving the palace and not becoming a king, his wife who he left with a newly born son, his son who he left without a father for him to take care of in his childhood - where and how all these bad karma's effects got negated? moreover, i have read that the buddha died due to eating a bad pork - so obviously after becoming awakened, he would not have done a bad karma act, so where from this effect of bad karma came in which he suffered pain due to eating a bad pork.

moreover, if we see the sutras, there is the story of angulimala, who killed 999 people and then when he thought of killing his mother as a 1000th victim, met buddha and became enlightened or an arahant. the sutra says after becoming an arahant, he did not lived long because of the effect of the bad karma, which he faced, in the form of people throwing stones at him, which lead to his death. but the point, which comes up here is when angulimala got enlightened, all his bad karma was not exhausted.

hi all,

so it seems to me that - to become awakened, exhaustion of all past bad karma is not a mandatory requirement. any thoughts on this thing also, please. thanks in advance.

lobster

The to be Buddhas first action was matricide. His mother was sacrificed so he could be born probably by Caesarian, without anaesthetic.
He disappointed his father, left his wife and child. He left his teachers, he disappointed his companions, starved himself silly in unbalanced ascetic anorexia etc.

Can you do all that or similar? :hair:
Most can or have . . . it is not compulsory . . .

Then we come to awakening. Due to a unique set of circumstances, training, paternal support, social environment that gave rise to the similar Jain religion etc, we have the teaching of the awake Buddha. That part may not be possible, feasible, appropriate.

So first part you can do. Get to awakening then consider your options.

:wave:

Cinorjer

Your question is a good one. Here is the answer from my own branch of Buddhism:

Before I can answer your question of can anyone do what Buddha did, I have to know what it is you think Buddha did, and if you are referring to his inner awakening or his ability to attract disciples and found a world religion.

What he actually became and accomplished, anyone has the potential to do given the circumstances and dedication and perhaps some inherited intelligence and charisma. Notice I said circumstances. People are as much a product of their environment and culture as they are individuals with unique actions. As much as his insight was unique, the role he played and the Sangha that evolved around him fit a pattern familiar to that culture and one that continues to this day with various guru Enlightened figures. The difference was in his message, not his methods or claims. So the blossoming of Buddhism was almost entirely a product of the environment.

As for his Enlightenment? Saying, well he was a mortal human but a very special one and only he could have become the Buddha is playing with semantics. Elevating our founder is also very human, and even before his death I'm sure legends grew up about his miraculous origin and abilities. The legends certainly made it into the Sutras. The overall picture we get from the writings is of a man who never claimed to be unique.

Hamsaka

That is THE question! Else why bother with all that ass-numbing sitting?

I wonder often about 'is it possible' too, and it takes me into too many areas of thinking to even bore myself to death in my own journal.

Presuming the Buddha was indeed an historical person (I am comfortable believing he was), and that his human life, minus the C-section birth and other unlikely mythical trappings resulted in a peerless awakening, I'm eager to do what he did to get what he got.

Except I am female, and live in a modern western civilization, and my body has not experienced the deprivation and discipline of six years as an ascetic. I also grew up within a Judeo-Christian paradigm, American Style, which has laid down deep structures in my brain that are not likely to change. I've simply lived TOO comfortable a life, in spite of the various nonsense and real tragedies, to even get close to a long distance simulacrum of Buddha's experiences. Will that affect the possibilities of me reaching Nirvana or Awakening in this life (providing I mean the same thing the Buddha meant when he used those terms)? Of course it will. Exactly how, well, much of that is obvious, but there must be plenty more that is not.

While the Buddha appears to be an historical person, there are 2600 years of the human religious experience between my life and his, so what exactly he did accomplish, if I could identify it as a 'thing', is lost to me and I'll never find it.

In the meantime though . . . I can sit every day, read Buddhist scripture, both canonical and modern, listen to those who've been walking the Path and working it, cultivate and maintain mindfulness in my daily life, and see where that gets me

It won't be what the Buddha 'got', but will it be 'good enough'? How could it not be?

Gassho

Jeffrey

You never know if you will become enlightened. Might as well try. Wouldn't it be wonderful?

Good karma can be used up is the answer to one of your questions.

Buddha has already put the dharma into the world so it is easier to follow his footprints rather than make the whole path ourselves.

Zenshin

When it comes to modern Arahants I think Ajahn Chah was probably the real deal so its still possible I believe. Personally I think getting your behind on the Zafu is a good thing and studying makes strong connections to the Dharma, after all full Buddhahood probably takes thousands of lifetimes unless your one of those Dzogchen dudes.

how

So much Buddhist identity gets tied to enlightment's ass that its no wonder it keeps a low profile.
It's main daily activities probably involve avoiding Buddhist avarice.
I think we should start adopting regulations for protecting enlightenment like they do for whale and bear watching so it can be allowed to experience a less badgered existence. (Nirvana and why the Buddha's head was covered with small snails) are close seconds in need of their own space, free from our mental enclosures.

Perhaps the practices in the Buddha's time were more concerned with
renunciation than the acquisition of anything?

Best of the New Year to everyone!

misecmisc1

firstly, thanks for all your insightful replies.

i think there came few questions, in my above posts, but may be they got lost somewhere because of my huge post.

so let me summarize the questions again:
1. did buddha got enlightened because he was destined to do so, or, what buddha did can a normal human being do?
2. buddha's story tells that he tested to know if he could become enlightened by putting bowl in river and when he got confirmation that he would get enlightened, then he sat under bodhi tree with pledge not to get up, until he gets enlightened - but these days, if somebody says he wants enlightenment (leave aside testing to know if it shall happen in future), then the next thing which usually comes up is that it is wanting of enlightenment, which is preventing it, because of wanting leading to suffering as per 2NT - but how come did it not applied to buddha himself and he got awakened?
3. monks like bodhidharma, dogen etc practiced many years of meditation as monk and then achieved enlightenment, or became awakened - so can a normal human being, who works to earn his living for him and his family, by just sitting say maximum of 2 hours a day, can that normal human being ever become enlightened by such a small effort in size, keeping aside the dedication and one-pointedness towards the goal which these monks had?
4. it seems to me that exhaustion of all past bad karma is not a mandatory condition needed for enlightenment - so what do you all say about the question that as per you, is exhaustion of all past bad karma a mandatory condition needed for enlightenment?

hope the questions above make some sense, if not complete non-sense. at least to me, the above questions seem to make some sense. so if the above questions make some sense to you too, then please suggest regarding the above questions. thanks in advance.

Jeffrey

1 I don't believe in destiny. Buddha hoed his own road.

2 Buddha stopped wanting. That itself is enlightenment. He did it by noticing the nature of his mind. All the things he was doing and realizing that he only had to let go.
Letting go is awakening and awakening is letting go.

3 I think it takes a great effort. But Buddha said his dharma was: "good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good at the end"..
Another way to say that is that all dharma has just one taste.

4 Exhaustion of bad karma is necessary for pleasing stabilizing states of mind. Buddha already had liberation from sankhara (concocting) so he didn't need to change anything that was happening to him into a better state. He faced whatever came up. He used the poisoned pork as a teacher to his students.

lobster

how said:

Perhaps the practices in the Buddha's time were more concerned with renunciation than the acquisition of anything?

Jeffrey said:

2 Buddha stopped wanting. That itself is enlightenment. He did it by noticing the nature of his mind. All the things he was doing and realizing that he only had to let go.
Letting go is awakening and awakening is letting go

Go back to the classic masters and their paradoxical expressions:
Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
JC

“To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.”
― Dōgen

Fortunate ones, mingle your mind with the Dharma and the happiness of Buddhahood will manifest within you!

When you recognize the nature of mind, fabrication and effort are naturally freed.

When you realize that samsara and nirvana are dharmakaya, you need not put effort into meditation practice.
Padmasambhava, Guru Rinpoche

David

I think it helps to remember that Buddha did not awaken within Sidhartha until he was around 30. Until that point he was living just another Jataka tale.

If the conditions are right, we just may be able to awaken from ours.