What constitues being "Buddhist"?

Maureen9

I've only begun researching Buddhism, about a month or two now, but instantly felt connected with it. The 4 Noble Truths have literally changed my approach to everything/everyone in my life, and the more research I do, the more I just know Buddhism is for me. Can one be Buddhist, just because they feel they are? My husband and I are embarking on this journey together, but we have so many questions and no one to discuss them with .... thanks in advance for any advice/information!

lobster

You may need the official Buddha bling . . .

jae

@Maureen9...Hi, I'm new here too and like you getting a lot out of it. There are lots of lovely folk here to answer your questions, good luck to the both of you on your journey

Maureen9

So all I need is a shirt?! Seems easy enough

person

Well, really Buddhism isn't so much about belonging to a "club" as it is a path to follow or a way to live. So whether you consider yourself a Buddhist or not is really mainly up to you and how you feel about it.

If you want though there is a ceremony of taking refuge that one can take. Ideally you would do this in front of a teacher at a monastery or dharma center though one can do it by yourself, preferably to an image of the Buddha.

Welcome to Buddhism and welcome to newbuddhist. This site is a good place to get questions answered but there really is no substitute for a real life group of fellow Buddhists (a Sangha) to help you along on the path if there is such a place near you.

Edit: linked a different refuge page, after reading through the first one that was more about serious commitment to Buddhism not so much about seeing oneself as a Buddhist. The current link is more appropriate

federica

Pose yourself these questions:

Do you realise, understand and accept that ALL phenomena are impermanent ? That all compounded things arise and must pass away ?
Do you realise, understand and accept the fact that ALL emotion is pain ? That even in pleasure there is at a deeper, level pain ?
Do you realise, understand and accept that fact that there is no abiding self to be found ?
Do you realise, understand and accept the fact that Enlightenment is beyond all conceptual frameworks and all intellectual understanding ?

Maureen9

@person thanks for the link!

anataman

federica said:

Pose yourself these questions:

Do you realise, understand and accept that ALL phenomena are impermanent ? That all compounded things arise and must pass away ?
Do you realise, understand and accept the fact that ALL emotion is pain ? That even in pleasure there is at a deeper, level pain ?
Do you realise, understand and accept that fact that there is no abiding self to be found ?
Do you realise, understand and accept the fact that Enlightenment is beyond all conceptual frameworks and all intellectual understanding ?

Wow, @Federica that was a phenomenal response, that left my compounded and impermanent self that has always caused me pain to accept that I am really stupid and should not be listened to.

Duck! Ouch - wasn't fast enough that time.

Welcome & forgive me @maureen9 for invading your (& your husbands) space!

Jeffrey

There may be a self that is neither here nor there and not set in time. For this self the question of impermanence or permanence never arises, because there are no temporal reference points and indeed no reference points to anything.

This self is empty of all characteristics. No shape no touch no color no picture. But all phenomena, many emotional, appear in the space of awareness. There really wouldn't be anything if it there was nothing happening in the mind.

It is relevant to a beginner because the question of self is very important. In meditation I started out by letting go into this spacious mind. That was my beginning meditation and still the one I follow.

cvalue

@Maureen9 asked: Can one be Buddhist, just because they feel they are?

Yes, absolutely.

vinlyn

As a monk in Thailand told me, "If you think like a Buddhist and act like a Buddhist, then you are a Buddhist."

Chaz

vinlyn said:

As a monk in Thailand told me, "If you think like a Buddhist and act like a Buddhist, then you are a Buddhist."

I can do better than that ......

A tulku, who graduated at the head of his Shedra class, told me that a Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.

So there!

The thing is, you will see yourself as whatever you want to see regardless of anyone's definition, so don't worry about it.

I see myself as an Lion Tamer - you know, with a long nose? Eats ants?

Vastmind

HI....nice to meet you

lamaramadingdong

Everyone's a Buddhist- some people know it and the rest don't.

matthewmartin

There are 84000 doors to the Dharma-- so there are lots of different things that all would be covered by "being Buddhist"

There is Buddhism-lite, Buddhism-medium and Buddhism-hard-core. Hard core isn't necessarily better, in fact the basic life story of the Buddha includes a lesson about over-doing-it.

Buddhism lite is something of a historical anachronism-- you give money to monks, wear an amulet or say a mantra to work magic. Hopefully in the next life you will have the opportunity to be a monk. This style of Buddhism didn't catch on it the west.

Buddhism-medium is sort of like a "prosumer" (professional consumer) of Buddhism-- they read a lot of books, meditate every day, go on multi-week retreats. Sometimes secular mindfulness (IMS), sometimes full blown Vajrayana with dieties, sometimes something in between like Shambhala. This is a level of effort above an beyond what any historical lay Buddhist normally did, but less than signing up to be a monk or nun. This is the most popular sort of Buddhism in the west. Maybe it's the thing about the recent converts being the most enthusiastic. You don't need to be that enthusiastic-- I got by just following the 1-fold path of reading books from the popular-Buddhism section of the book store for decades.

Buddhism-hard-core is ordaining as a monk. The historical Buddha recruited ordinary people directly into the sangha. Nowadays, people don't join the Sangha unless they really, really want to. It's a bit of a life style jolt--joining an institution, following their rules, no kids or girlfriends, etc. On the other hand, the lifestyle allows one to pursue Buddhism full time.

So how far in you want to go before you feel Buddhist enough, that's your choice. As for what I look for in other people when I'm going to slap the Buddhist label on them is what is their practice-- do they meditate, read Buddhist philosophy, do some sort of do-gooder activity like being a vegetarian or volunteering at the homeless shelter. I can't tell if they have any metaphysical insights, but I figure that if someone is chanting, or doing a sadhanas* or gongyo**, that eventually it will click.

* tantric rituals
** daily practice, usually entails reciting sutra, sometimes chanting mantras, sometimes prostrations, sometimes meditation, and the like. Not everyone does this-- again, 84000 doors to the Dharma, use the one that works for you.

Jainarayan

federica said:

Pose yourself these questions:

Do you realise, understand and accept that ALL phenomena are impermanent ? That all compounded things arise and must pass away ?
Do you realise, understand and accept the fact that ALL emotion is pain ? That even in pleasure there is at a deeper, level pain ?
Do you realise, understand and accept that fact that there is no abiding self to be found ?
Do you realise, understand and accept the fact that Enlightenment is beyond all conceptual frameworks and all intellectual understanding ?

I wish I saw that before I posted my "If someone were to ask me my religion, what would I say?" thread. In 4 simple answers I can say "I'm a Buddhist".

vinlyn

I didn't realize the purpose here was to do one better than another person, and particularly not to do one better than a monk.

Maureen9

Thank you all! Very much appreciated

DairyLama

Maureen9 said:

Can one be Buddhist, just because they feel they are?

I don't see why not.

Citta

lamaramadingdong said:

Everyone's a Buddhist- some people know it and the rest don't.

That's EXACTLY what Muslims say about Islam.

anataman

One great big happy family eh, except at Christmas time.

Chaz

vinlyn said:

I didn't realize the purpose here was to do one better than another person, and particularly not to do one better than a monk.

Well, you were using a monk as some sort of authority as to what defines one's being a Buddhist.

I used a reference to another monk - one who's a Tulku and who also graduated at the head of his class at Rumtek Shedra ( a heavy hitter in terms of knowledge of the Dharma) - as an authority with a vastly different view of what a Buddhist is. To reiterate, a Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. If you don't take refuge you aren't a Buddhist.

You can certainly call yourself one, but according to some, that doesn't really make any difference.

As per my homage to Monty Python, I can say I see myself as lion tamer, but that doesn't make me one, and how I concieve a Lion Tamer (long nose, eats ants) isn't even close.

However, no one is going to come and take away your birthday, so believe what you like.

Citta

vinlyn said:

As a monk in Thailand told me, "If you think like a Buddhist and act like a Buddhist, then you are a Buddhist."

Which rather begs the question...if you think and act like which flavour of buddhism ?

Cinorjer

Maureen9 said:

I've only begun researching Buddhism, about a month or two now, but instantly felt connected with it. The 4 Noble Truths have literally changed my approach to everything/everyone in my life, and the more research I do, the more I just know Buddhism is for me. Can one be Buddhist, just because they feel they are? My husband and I are embarking on this journey together, but we have so many questions and no one to discuss them with .... thanks in advance for any advice/information!

Hi @Maureen9 Welcome to the online sangha!

You and your husband have a wonderful journey of exploration before you. Perhaps you two will eventually find an established group to take formal refuge, or maybe you'll be content to go about your lives putting the dharma into practice on your own. Either way, you're a Buddhist the moment you decide to be one. There are people who live in Buddhist cultures, come from generations of Buddhists and have family who are monks, who call themselves Buddhist but don't put an ounce of effort into living a moral life, and others who have never set foot in a temple who have devoted their lives to helping others.

My only advice is to enjoy what you're doing. Fit a bit of meditation into your two schedules and find some sort of class if you're unfamiliar with the various techniques. Practice compassion in your daily lives, toward others, each other, and even yourself. And above all realize that as an ancient religion, Buddhism has many different sects and we can get caught up in arguing over who has the most authentic, or true set of beliefs and practices. Trust your inner compass.

DairyLama

Citta said:

lamaramadingdong said:

Everyone's a Buddhist- some people know it and the rest don't.

That's EXACTLY what Muslims say about Islam.

It's all just so confusing!

federica

@Jainarayan, @anataman:

Before anyone gives me too much credit for those questions, three things:

One: they're actually asked in the book "What makes you not a Buddhist?" written by Dzongsar Khyense Rinpoche;

Two: We ran a thread on virtually the same question in July last year, and

Three: That thread was posted, (and the questions thus posed) by @Citta.

A simple search brought it up.

The credit must therefore primarily go to Citta and the book in question.

Citta

I seem to recall it going down like a lead balloon @federica...

vinlyn

Citta said:

vinlyn said:

As a monk in Thailand told me, "If you think like a Buddhist and act like a Buddhist, then you are a Buddhist."

Which rather begs the question...if you think and act like which flavour of buddhism ?

Yes, very true. And of course, that explains about half of the tension and disagreement we see here on this forum from time to time.

BhikkhuJayasara

federica said:

Pose yourself these questions:

Do you realise, understand and accept that ALL phenomena are impermanent ? That all compounded things arise and must pass away ?
Do you realise, understand and accept the fact that ALL emotion is pain ? That even in pleasure there is at a deeper, level pain ?
Do you realise, understand and accept that fact that there is no abiding self to be found ?
Do you realise, understand and accept the fact that Enlightenment is beyond all conceptual frameworks and all intellectual understanding ?

id be extremely suspicious if anyone here said yes to any of that. All of these , if ACTUALLY realized, not intellectually, would make you at minimum a sotapanna(stream winner with max 7 lives left to awakening)

as for what constitutes "being a buddhist" I think the Buddhas own words are apt here...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

4. At that time the twin sala trees broke out in full bloom, though it was not the season of flowering. And the blossoms rained upon the body of the Tathagata and dropped and scattered and were strewn upon it in worship of the Tathagata. And celestial mandarava flowers and heavenly sandalwood powder from the sky rained down upon the body of the Tathagata, and dropped and scattered and were strewn upon it in worship of the Tathagata. And the sound of heavenly voices and heavenly instruments made music in the air out of reverence for the Tathagata.

5. And the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "Ananda, the twin sala trees are in full bloom, though it is not the season of flowering. And the blossoms rain upon the body of the Tathagata and drop and scatter and are strewn upon it in worship of the Tathagata. And celestial coral flowers and heavenly sandalwood powder from the sky rain down upon the body of the Tathagata, and drop and scatter and are strewn upon it in worship of the Tathagata. And the sound of heavenly voices and heavenly instruments makes music in the air out of reverence for the Tathagata.

6. "Yet it is not thus, Ananda, that the Tathagata is respected, venerated, esteemed, worshipped, and honored in the highest degree. But, Ananda, whatever bhikkhu or bhikkhuni, layman or laywoman, abides by the Dhamma, lives uprightly in the Dhamma, walks in the way of the Dhamma, it is by such a one that the Tathagata is respected, venerated, esteemed, worshipped, and honored in the highest degree. Therefore, Ananda, thus should you train yourselves: 'We shall abide by the Dhamma, live uprightly in the Dhamma, walk in the way of the Dhamma.'"


the rest, rites & rituals, ceremonies, etc, hold little meaning... not even miracles from the heavens pale in comparison to practicing dhamma. I don't care if you label yourself a Christian, if you practice dhamma, you follow what the buddha taught.

federica

Citta said:

I seem to recall it going down like a lead balloon @federica...

Only because people began to bicker, not because of the thread theme itself.

I'm sure this thread will NOT go the same way.

I said I'M SURE THIS THREAD WILL NOT GO THE SAME WAY.....

Citta

There is potential problem @Jayantha in that the person who made that formulation would almost certainly not accept a literal reading of the existence of Sotapannas.
I think he would see that as not being compatible with the last of those questions..

Jason

Maureen9 said:

I've only begun researching Buddhism, about a month or two now, but instantly felt connected with it. The 4 Noble Truths have literally changed my approach to everything/everyone in my life, and the more research I do, the more I just know Buddhism is for me. Can one be Buddhist, just because they feel they are? My husband and I are embarking on this journey together, but we have so many questions and no one to discuss them with .... thanks in advance for any advice/information!

According to the Suttas, a lay follower is one who's gone to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha for refuge [as guides], and is committed to the practice according to the Dhamma. And a virtuous lay follower is one who "abstains from destroying living beings; abstains from taking what is not given; abstains from sexual misconduct; abstains from lying; and abstains from wine, liquor and intoxicants that are causes for heedlessness" (AN 8.25).

So anyone who takes the Buddha, his teachings (Dhamma), and those who have 'practiced well' (Sangha) as guides and makes an internal commitment to put the teachings themselves into practice is by definition a Buddhist lay follower.

This 'going for refuge' can be an externally or internally made commitment. One can go through all the external motions of going to a temple and formally taking the three refuges and receiving the precepts, or one can even do it in front of a Buddha statue at home if they so choose, but neither's really a requirement. It's the underlying intention that truly matters.

As Thanissaro Bhikkhu (a respected monk and translator) notes in his short book, Refuge, "On the internal level, the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha are the skillful qualities we develop in our own minds in imitation of our external models." What this means is that when one takes refuge in the Sangha, they're not only taking refuge in the community of monks, nuns, and lay followers who have gained a taste of awakening, but they're also taking refuge in the skillful qualities the Sangha represents and, ideally, possesses.

In addition, according to Bhikkhu Bodhi (another respected monk and translator), "Strictly speaking, as soon as there arises in his mind an act of consciousness which takes the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha as his guiding ideal, that person has gone for refuge to the Triple Gem and become a Buddhist lay disciple (upasaka)" (Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts).

So in answer to your question, yes, one can consider oneself a Buddhist just because they feel they are.

Jeffrey

@Jason, if the Buddha is not right in front of someone how do they take refuge in the Buddha? Taking refuge in his teachings is refuge in Dharma. So how do you take refuge in the actual person of Buddha. Mahayana says that at a certain level you will perceive samboghakaya.

federica

Mahayan says.... But jason is theravada.
Visualisation (if needs be) is sufficient.

Jeffrey

Yes, I meant Jason is Theravadan with an inquiry from me into what Theravaan's believe about the Buddha facet of the triple gem.

anataman

Citta said:

I seem to recall it going down like a lead balloon @federica...

We'll lead is a homonym.

lead (aka Pb in the periodic table) as in the heavy toxic metal that makes you stupid!

And lead as in -' take it away Mr Sulu', but you would have to be a Star Trek fan to understand that @Citta is really Captain James T Kirk, leading us into the unknown, boldly going where no... Shut up Anataman!

Okay captain

upekka

anataman said:

Shut up Anataman!

be gentle

sit and think

Chaz

Jeffrey said:

@Jason, if the Buddha is not right in front of someone how do they take refuge in the Buddha? Taking refuge in his teachings is refuge in Dharma. So how do you take refuge in the actual person of Buddha. Mahayana says that at a certain level you will perceive samboghakaya.

What are you talking about @Jeffrey? Are you sugesting that you can't take refuge in the Buddha if he's not, physically, right in front of you?

anataman

upekka said:

anataman said:

Shut up Anataman!

be gentle

sit and think

I did that is the problem!

Jeffrey

Chaz said:

Jeffrey said:

@Jason, if the Buddha is not right in front of someone how do they take refuge in the Buddha? Taking refuge in his teachings is refuge in Dharma. So how do you take refuge in the actual person of Buddha. Mahayana says that at a certain level you will perceive samboghakaya.

What are you talking about @Jeffrey? Are you sugesting that you can't take refuge in the Buddha if he's not, physically, right in front of you?

I was thinking that if you only know Buddha from his teachings then that is the 'dharma' facet??

lobster

Maureen9 said:

So all I need is a shirt?! Seems easy enough

As you might be beginning to realise, the outer T-shirt is easy, it is the inside that causes the dukkha (see first Noble Truth).

What is a potential dharmaholic to do? Refuge, sutra and book study, meditate, mock the monk, build a shine for a shrine, give up lamb cutlets, sex, common sense, find a thatcher/teacher to build a roof over ones head etc?

Buddhism sure brings home the dukkha bacon . . .

After the T-shirt a mountain of salt is required. Take a pinch with all opinions . . . especially mine and your own . . .
This gave rise to a famous Zen saying:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/sayings.htm

:thumbsup:

Jason

Jeffrey said:

Chaz said:

What are you talking about @Jeffrey? Are you sugesting that you can't take refuge in the Buddha if he's not, physically, right in front of you?

I was thinking that if you only know Buddha from his teachings then that is the 'dharma' facet??

One who sees the Dhamma, sees the Buddha:

[The Buddha visits the Ven. Vakkali, who is sick]

Now the Venerable Vakkali saw the Blessed One coming from a distance, and tried to get up. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Vakkali: "Enough, Vakkali, do not try to get up. There are these seats made ready. I will sit down there." And he sat down on a seat that was ready. Then he said:

"Are you feeling better, Vakkali? Are you bearing up? Are your pains getting better and not worse? Are there signs that they are getting better and not worse?"

"No, Lord, I do not feel better, I am not bearing up. I have severe pains, and they are getting worse, not better. There is no sign of improvement, only of worsening."

"Have you any doubts, Vakkali? Have you any cause for regret?"

"Indeed, Lord, I have many doubts. I have much cause for regret."

"Have you nothing to reproach yourself about as regards morals?"

"No, Lord, I have nothing to reproach myself about as regards morals."

"Well then, Vakkali, if you have nothing to reproach yourself about as regards morals, you must have some worry or scruple that is troubling you."

"For a long time, Lord, I have wanted to come and set eyes on the Blessed One, but I had not the strength in this body to come and see the Blessed One."

"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma." (SN 22.87)

Citta

upekka said:

anataman said:

Shut up Anataman!

be gentle

sit and think

Its OK upekka. I am quite happy to provide a means for anataman to project negative transference. Its all part of the job.

federica

Jeffrey said:

I was thinking that if you only know Buddha from his teachings then that is the 'dharma' facet??

...How else do you propose to 'know' him....?

:scratch: :wtf:

Jainarayan

Jayantha said:

6. "Yet it is not thus, Ananda, that the Tathagata is respected, venerated, esteemed, worshipped, and honored in the highest degree. But, Ananda, whatever bhikkhu or bhikkhuni, layman or laywoman, abides by the Dhamma, lives uprightly in the Dhamma, walks in the way of the Dhamma, it is by such a one that the Tathagata is respected, venerated, esteemed, worshipped, and honored in the highest degree. Therefore, Ananda, thus should you train yourselves: 'We shall abide by the Dhamma, live uprightly in the Dhamma, walk in the way of the Dhamma.'"


the rest, rites & rituals, ceremonies, etc, hold little meaning... not even miracles from the heavens pale in comparison to practicing dhamma. I don't care if you label yourself a Christian, if you practice dhamma, you follow what the buddha taught.

This is another arrow in my quiver to shoot down my superstitions I talked about in the other thread.

Jeffrey

@federica, my teacher said you can know Buddha directly when you can see sambhogakaya, the enjoyment body of Buddha.

upekka

anataman said:

I did that is the problem!

read vattupama suttas

that will help to walk further with cleaning dirt

upekka

Citta said:

I am quite happy to provide a means for anataman to project negative transference. Its all part of the job.

OK is as far as one is mindful

otherwise

'Kamma is the Intention'

negative intention (cause) brings negative effect

Jeffrey

With a good intention when (eventually) the conditions arise you will do goodness.

If you have a bad intention even if good conditions arise you will still do wrong.