Mindfulness of breath and the middle way

Jeffrey

Stay to the topic and stick to mindfulness of breath as the topic and not some other form of meditation.

In the past I was dismayed whenever my awareness moved off the breath. My teacher said to just welcome the thoughts that dislodge us as guests at our house. You don't slam the door and but you have other guests. That is like calmly returning to the breath. But for awhile I was too lax just letting whatever thought dominate me to lose myself in daydreams all session (almost).

So I am trying to find the middle way of not too loose and not too tight. I think of it like a boat with a rudder. Too tight is jerking the rudder when you need to change course. Or even hitting the rudder. It doesn't do much good to hit the rudder just as being too hard on yourself disturbs your mind from calm.. But just letting myself day dream is like letting go of the rudder to avoid hitting it. Your hand is real sore. So here I am and I am trying to slowly learn to firmly move the rudder to the desired trajectory.

banned_crab

I think the key is to not have big goals or expectations. Just try to succeed at concentrating on one breath. Than when the next breath arrives try to concentrate on just that 1.

how

@Jeffrey
A thought to ponder...

My mindfulness in formal meditation is largely a reflection of my mindfulness in daily life.
To ask it to perform tricks at a formally arranged time while paying it little attention throughout the rest of the day is perhaps asking too much.

lobster

You might consider only a 50% breath mindfulness. Breathing out and relaxing away the distracted thoughts arising on the in breath.

It is not concentration/focus of the breath, it is relaxing in the breathing. Thoughts are just 'the mind' having a breather. Incoming thoughts, out breathing thoughts . . .
:wave:

Jeffrey

@lobster, that's actually what Lama Shenpen teaches. However the same issue with daydreaming is still there.

Bunks

I have been working with disengagement and disassociation lately.

Just saying "I don't even care about my thoughts....they're not me so I'm totally going to disengage from them."

It has helped me settle as I think I was a little too uptight about forcing my mind to watch the breath and I would often have a knot in my stomach.

fivebells

There are four tetrads in the anapanasati sutta (i.e., mindfulness of breathing), and they allow a lot of flexibility about what to focus on while attending to the breath. For instance,

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'[5]

Becoming sensitive to movements of the mind is part of breath meditation. I often have attention on the breath, and then another "guard" watching where the mind wants to jump next. As the pleasure of attending to the breath entrains the mind, the guard can be dropped.

If you keep returning to the same daydreams/thoughts, then you really want to be practicing insight, to get to the bottom of the attachments driving the thoughts, and releasing them. This is also covered in the anapanasati sutta:

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'

Chapter 6 of Thanissaro's book Right Mindfulness is an excellent overview of how one moves between these levels during breath meditation in order to establish concentration.

...as we have had frequent occasion to notice, the four tetrads are not radically separate. They cover four aspects of a single process. It’s hard to imagine how anyone could master mindfulness of breathing without making use of all four tetrads, as you need to keep reading the state of your concentration. When you see that it needs improvement, you decide to focus on whichever of these four aspects is most in need of attention. The ability to read your mind in this way would come both under step 9 in the sixteen steps—breathing in and out sensitive to the mind—and under the first two factors for awakening: mindfulness and analysis of qualities. If the mind needs to be fed a particular type of feeling, that would bring in the second tetrad; and this, often, will require the help of steps 3 and 4 in the first tetrad. If the mind is harassed by distractions, that would require bringing in the other steps of the third tetrad and all four steps of the fourth. In this way, even though your main focus of concentration may be the breath, there is no way you can avoid bringing all four tetrads—and all four establishings of mindfulness—to bear on the process of developing right concentration in line with the seven factors for awakening.

Jeffrey

@fivebells. I am having trouble correlating that to my meditation. I was having the problem of daydreaming and either being overly strict with not having day dreaming or else becoming lax where I am just thinking of all different things from video games to sex to past times.

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'

are these four bolded the tetrad? Does constancy mean hold of the mind with as much continuation as possible? What is the difference between dispassion and cessation and relinquishment?

Thanks for the detailed reply. :thumbsup:

wangchuey

Jeffrey said:

So I am trying to find the middle way of not too loose and not too tight.

It would be a good idea to ask ourselves if we even feel like meditating before we start, because we don't want it too loose by not concentrating enough. On the other hand if we are too focused on our thoughts, it makes it harder to let go of it, so this is too tight. I am going by your example of the rudder.

Jeffrey

@fivebells, also you know from previous conversations that I don't base my meditation method off the Pali Canon. So why did you post?

I am surprised you would think that I would change from my teacher and Tibetan Buddhism to your Pali method.

That said I do appreciate your contribution to the thread. But I'm not going to read books etc of traditions that have nothing to do with my meditation method. Sorry.

pegembara

Jeffrey said:

Stay to the topic and stick to mindfulness of breath as the topic and not some other form of meditation.

So I am trying to find the middle way of not too loose and not too tight. I think of it like a boat with a rudder. Too tight is jerking the rudder when you need to change course. Or even hitting the rudder. It doesn't do much good to hit the rudder just as being too hard on yourself disturbs your mind from calm.. But just letting myself day dream is like letting go of the rudder to avoid hitting it. Your hand is real sore. So here I am and I am trying to slowly learn to firmly move the rudder to the desired trajectory.

Sati (mindfulness) also means to remember or remind oneself again and again. When the rudder is either too loose or tight, remember to remind oneself, "Hey! It's too tight or too loose and adjust accordingly."

"There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore."

In other words - Stay to the topic and stick to the breath

The function of mindfulness is to keep the object always in view, neither forgetting it nor allowing it to disappear. When mindfulness is present, the occurring object will be noted without forgetfulness.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pandita/html/factors1.html

upekka

when you notice that you are daydreaming that is the moment that you are mindful that you are not with your breath
at this moment daydreaming has gone to the past

now is the moment to start breath in and breath out with mindfulness
the mindfulness may stay for two seconds or one minute or more

the most important thing is you could breath in and out with mindfulness after you recognized that you were daydreaming


mindfulness with breathing will be increased gradually and daydreaming will be decreased

federica

Jeffrey said:

@fivebells, also you know from previous conversations that I don't base my meditation method off the Pali Canon. So why did you post?

I am surprised you would think that I would change from my teacher and Tibetan Buddhism to your Pali method.

That said I do appreciate your contribution to the thread. But I'm not going to read books etc of traditions that have nothing to do with my meditation method. Sorry.

While I understand your sentiment, I feel you're being a little closed-minded.... Exploring different options is not being disloyal.
Remaining fixed to a single set of rails does not always take you the way you need to go.
Exploration of different paths is an enriching process.
And as with a good buffet, you're completely free to take whatever nourishes you, and leave what doesn't; but how will you know unless you view the dishes under their shining metal domes....?

DairyLama

Jeffrey said:

In the past I was dismayed whenever my awareness moved off the breath. My teacher said to just welcome the thoughts that dislodge us as guests at our house. You don't slam the door and but you have other guests. That is like calmly returning to the breath.

There are many different approaches to meditation. It sounds like you're using the breath as an "anchor" and acknowledging whatever arises, thoughts, feelings etc. What might help is some simple labelling. So the label "thinking" might be helpful as a way of letting go of those thoughts and returning gently to the breath.

DairyLama

federica said:

While I understand your sentiment, I feel you're being a little closed-minded.... Exploring different options is not being disloyal.

Sure, but trying to combine different approaches can get quite confusing.

fivebells

Jeffrey said:

I am surprised you would think that I would change from my teacher and Tibetan Buddhism to your Pali method.

I'm surprised you would think that I would think that, or that I would give a damn in any other way about what cultural faction you identify with.

federica

SpinyNorman said:

federica said:

While I understand your sentiment, I feel you're being a little closed-minded.... Exploring different options is not being disloyal.

Sure, but trying to combine different approaches can get quite confusing.

I don't find it so.... One time I do one, another time I do another.

Pardon me, but where does your problem lie?

federica

fivebells said:

Jeffrey said:

I am surprised you would think that I would change from my teacher and Tibetan Buddhism to your Pali method.

I'm surprised you would think that I would think that, or that I would give a damn in any other way about what cultural faction you identify with.

I see this more and more, currently....

Can people not have a decent discussion without resorting to bitchiness?
Maybe I'm getting lax in my Moderation...... ?

Please be nice to one another.
It really isn't that difficult....

seeker242

Personally, I think it's quite simple. VERY simple actually. Put your attention on breathing. When you notice it has gone off breathing, bring it back to breathing. That's it! Nothing more! So simple and so easy to do!

Sometimes attention goes away for a long time, sometimes a short time. Sometimes it goes away often, sometimes not so often. But none of that really matters. The only thing that really matters is to return to the breath regardless. So, just return to the breath and don't make a story about what happened or didn't happen, how it happened or for how long. Whatever happens, just return. That's it!

If all you do is just return, everything else will fall into place naturally all by itself. The mind will become quite all by itself. You don't have to do anything else except just return to the breath. As soon as you make a story about what's happening or not happening, that is when breath meditation becomes complex or difficult, etc. But it's not what is happening that makes it difficult, it's the story about what's happening that does that. No story, no difficulty.

fivebells

For what it's worth, the Pali suttas don't have a monopoly on recommending that meditators mix the other foundations of mindfulness with breath awareness.

The prominent contemporary Kagyu/Nyingma master Chogyam Trungpa, echoing the Kagyu Mahāmudrā view, wrote, "your breathing is the closest you can come to a picture of your mind. It is the portrait of your mind in some sense. . .The traditional recommendation in the lineage of meditators that developed in the Kagyu-Nyingma tradition is based on the idea of mixing mind and breath."

Jeffrey

double awesome @heyimacrab and @seeker242

Jeffrey

@Federica, I am investing in learning my own traditions teachings on meditation. I don't mind that other traditions exist, but I just don't want the thread to be derailed by traditions that I am not interested in. For example: I am not interested in jhana or dhyana.

fivebells

Jeffrey said:

@fivebells. I am having trouble correlating that to my meditation. I was having the problem of daydreaming and either being overly strict with not having day dreaming or else becoming lax where I am just thinking of all different things from video games to sex to past times.

The point is that regardless of tradition, you have options beyond the strictness with which you hold attention on the breath. If you're just plucking at a single lute string you won't make effective music, no matter how accurately you've tightened it.

Jeffrey said:

are these four bolded the tetrad? Does constancy mean hold of the mind with as much continuation as possible? What is the difference between dispassion and cessation and relinquishment?

I bolded them to point out that within the instructions for breath meditation are instructions to do insight meditation. Inconstancy means anicca. Dispassion is viraga, the fading of passion. I believe cessation refers to the third noble truth, and relinquishment refers to abandoning unskillful qualities, but I haven't looked up the Pali. My point was that according to the anpanasati instructions it's appropriate to bring these insight practices to bear on distracting concerns/thoughts/desires.

More from Right Mindfulness:

When you’re trying
to master concentration, you direct [the above] contemplations to any object that
would distract you from your theme. In other words, you focus these
contemplations on anything that would provoke greed and distress with
reference to the world outside of your concentration, seeing the distraction as
composed of events (dhammas) that are inherently unworthy of attachment. In
this way, you wean the mind from the distraction.

Jeffrey said:

Thanks for the detailed reply. :thumbsup:

No problem. If you want to read more about developing mindfulness of breathing from a Tibetan perspective, you might try Alan B. Wallace's The Attention Revolution. I haven't read it, but it was popular a few years ago.

anataman

Sorry @Jeffrey, don't want to derail anything, but I am reminded again and again and again by Sogyal Rinpoche - it is just about 'recognising the recognition that is recognising', be it the breath, a footfall, a sound or another thing that reminds us to be aware of our present awareness.

Mettha

Jeffrey

anataman said:

Sorry @Jeffrey, don't want to derail anything, but I am reminded again and again and again by Sogyal Rinpoche - it is just about 'recognising the recognition that is recognising', be it the breath, a footfall, a sound or another thing that reminds us to be aware of our present awareness.

Mettha

I thought of that same issue in my meditation last night. For a few seconds my mind was totally silent. I had been letting go of 'the narrator'. But then I realized that my monkey mind had already cut in and was talking about my experience.

lobster

Softly, softly, catchee monkey . . .
origin (probably) Guyana

Soft breath, slow breath, patient breath.

DairyLama

federica said:

SpinyNorman said:

federica said:

While I understand your sentiment, I feel you're being a little closed-minded.... Exploring different options is not being disloyal.

Sure, but trying to combine different approaches can get quite confusing.

I don't find it so.... One time I do one, another time I do another.

Pardon me, but where does your problem lie?

I mean if somebody is meditating according to a particular tradition and wants advice, it's better to try and advise them in terms of that practice, not a completely different one.

DairyLama

Jeffrey said:

@Federica, I am investing in learning my own traditions teachings on meditation. I don't mind that other traditions exist, but I just don't want the thread to be derailed by traditions that I am not interested in. For example: I am not interested in jhana or dhyana.

I do get that, Jeffrey. What might help is to label the thread in a more specific way so people know what kind of meditation you're actually doing and want advice on.
It's tricky because there are so many different approaches to meditation across the Buddhist traditions, and some of them are quite specific in terms of method.