Can you hear?
lobster
Veteran
When I was a child, I read in an old school reader of my Mum (the author quoted "The light of Asia" a lot) that before saying something, what we were about to say should pass three tests. The words are attributed to the Buddha, so most members must be acquainted with them. The three tests are: Is it true? Is it useful? Is it timely?
Rick Hanson adds a fourth: Is it welcome?
I thought this deserved it own thread.
The idea of 'welcome' is very much based on maturity, life experience and capacity to discern. Speaking to those who have already decided or have worked out that their favored expression is what must be heard . . . means that the capacity of welcome, or ability to hear is not currently available.
Is part of empathy and compassion discerning what is going to be heard?
Comments
Sorry, @lobster, but just to provide some background to the comment. The story was in an old Victorian reader, under the form of a nursery rhyme. I ignore the author, but Rick Hanson has attributed the original words to the Buddha.
The nursery rhyme is freely inspired by the Vaca Sutta (Anguttara Nikaya 5.198). This is the quotation @karasti made in the thread "Karma," so I've pasted it as it was there:
"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?
"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.
"A statement endowed with these five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people."
As is always the case with the suttas, there are others on the same line.
Though I ignore who the author of the nursery rhyme is, I suppose it could be an English person who lived in Asia and found the words of the Buddha interesting enough to create a version that could easily be transmitted to children.
Rick Hanson wrote that "The Buddha said that whatever we say should pass three tests, and often a fourth: Is it true? Is it useful? Is it timely?" The fourth he added was: Is it welcome?
Sorry this took so long, but that's the background of the comment which evolves from the thread "Karma."
What I personally think is, we probably don't always have to have a say on everything under the sun. But if somebody asks you for an advice, this person should be ready to listen to your opinion, independently of whether he agrees or not with what you say, or whether he will even like what he's going to hear.
Maturity is necessary for both the person who emits an opinion and the person who listens. Of the former, to be mindful of how he phrases his opinion as such: an opinion, not an absolute truth. On the latter, how ready he is to accept whatever the other person has to say in a civilized fashion.
It's a two-way street.
Online makes it harder to discern if it is welcome. To me, if you post a question/discussion that means you are open (welcoming) what other people have to say. Yet, at least sometimes, that is not the case. Well, then why post your comment in a discussion forum? I'll never understand that.
In person it is easier to discern how your comment might be received, but, that darn ego wants to say it's 2 cents worth no matter what! Sometimes it's like a wrestling match to not say something. Online, it's easier to walk away when you are wrestling with that decision. In person, not as much.
@Lobster
Is part of empathy and compassion discerning what is going to be heard?
Empathy and compassion speaks of ones ability to stand in another's shoes and attempt to address whatever is best for them.
While discerning what is going to be heard, does partake of empathy and compassion, I think it usually also requires equanimity to really manifest as skillful means.
A woman asked me once, "Do you like my dress?"
Two answers popped to mind after I responded unskillfully:
It could be argued easily enough that both answers were true, useful and timely but in hindsight, I'd choose number two. I'm still unsatisfied with my solution to such questions though. And no, it wasn't my wife - as I still have internet privileges.
How does one have so much dislike for a thing?
I suppose it could by inadequate in attracting the perceptions of those who define their views by societies judgments of fashions. Functionally that would make the dress less useful in endeavors of manipulating the perceptions of others as they are falsely derived and need redirection to see your wifes beauty.
Edit: her beauty... Not your wife's.
Might be because it was similar to the dresses my abuser wore all the time. Might be because I simply find some things attractive and other things not attractive.
The reality of the situation is probably that the dress elicited the same reaction I might feel if a woman asked me if I liked her new breast implants which now made her a 49GGG. It seemed to me that it was a gross exaggeration of a dress. I am curious of your use of the words 'so much' however - as in, How does one have SO MUCH dislike for a thing. Where did that come from? I never gave her dress a thought until she asked me about it.
Frankly, the girl was interested in me. Her question was asked because it was me that she was trying to impress by, as you have said, attracting the perceptions of those (in this case me) who define their views by societies judgments of fashions. As I don't define my views by societies judgments of fashions, I was a poor choice to ask. But since it was me that she was trying to impress, I was left with a choice - lie or tell the truth. I chose the truth, unskillfully as I may have worded it.
Incidentally, since I have not mentioned it, my response was a simple, "No."
...what did she say...?
It was interesting Federica, which is probably why it's stayed with me so long. The fact is, she didn't say anything. She approached me while I was having a discussion with a friend/mentor who was explaining to me why I am responsible for my feelings regardless of what others say or do.
She stood behind me and to the side waiting for us to finish and the friend I was speaking to paused to say hello. It was then that I turned and first saw her and she asked her question. I was really focused on the conversation at hand and so I gave my quick 'no' and turned back to continue the conversation. After a few moments (presumably the time it took her to walk away) he interrupted me to ask me how on earth I could have given such an insensitive reply. Truth be told, I was flummoxed.
I mean, here we were talking about how I am responsible for my feelings regardless of what someone else does or says and I am being called to task for saying something that obviously (based on his description of the look on her face after I turned away) hurt her feelings. The irony was a bit much. Nevertheless, I was curious as to how he would have handled it and he suggested, "It's not exactly my style but it sure does bring out your eyes."
The use of ugly vs unsatisfactory or uncertainty or even mild dislike. "I am not certain I like that" vs "that thing is ugly."
Sure. But what is discerned is at best an educated guess, therefore, opinion.
My sister asked me if I needed to clear the air with her a few weeks ago. She decided to divorce her husband (of 25 years) and in her typical style, went about it by telling other people some very personal and rather humiliating 'faults' of his, including a post on Facebook which met the criteria for TMI.
Discerning my sister's motivations -- educated guesses -- based on past behavior, informed me she was 'recruiting' people to her 'side' and build up validation for her decision to divorce (who WOULDN'T divorce him because he does xx and XX??)
As a rule she cleverly builds cases where she is blameless and her enemy of the moment is a cesspool of evil.
I've never in my entire life 'shared' with her my educated guess/discernment/opinion about her behavior. Never. And then she asked me. I told her.
What I said was as truthful as possible, what with my limitations of omniscience and self-honesty. I avoided what I suspected SHE would interpret as 'meanness', and definitely inserted humor, and true validation for the difficulty of what she was going through. That said, I told her going around recruiting allies the way she did would blow up in her face, that people knew HIM as well as her (especially her lol), and to take responsibility for her decision to divorce, rather than campaign to make her soon to be exhusband a social pariah.
Was it welcome? Well, I guess so. She ASKED me if I needed to clear the air. Was what I SAID welcome? HELL NO!! After some emails accusing me of putting her thought the meatgrinder, being unnecessarily mean and cruel, and unfriending me from Facebook (how dreadfully modern lol), I am still getting the cold shoulder.
I have gone over and over and OVER in my head about how she received this, in particular. Is her negative reception an indication of wrong speech? I'm still on the fence there. I don't think so, but I'm staying open.
I had lunch with her soon to be ex and my son yesterday. Her ex 'S' has been part of our family since the two were fourteen years old, we used to take him everywhere with us lol. Needless to say, he's my brothah from a different mothah. I know him well AND I know my sister well. S is the type to avoid saying a single negative thing about his soon to be ex wife. He is one of those quiet Zen masters (lol), always has been, and wanted to meet me for lunch to assure us no matter what happens to him and my sis that we are family, always.
Anyway, I discerned my sister would freak out (and she did) and what I said would be unwelcome although she asked me to clear the air between us.
Should I have held back knowing it would cause a rift between us for the first time in our adult lives? I feel kind of 'solid' that I ventured to say what I did. It feels like a good boundary to set. I get tired of walking on eggshells around a person, even my own sister.
I suspect difficult communications could get the label 'wrong speech' simply because the communication would not be received with gladness. But maybe that is the point the Buddha made? I dunno, still gathering impressions here
@Hamsaka, we are all learning. You did what you thought is best. Just go from here, right?
Yes. Exactly so.
As we listen to ourself with a degree of equanimity we learn the difference between noise, emotional chatter, internal twitter and genuine being. Most of us are a Facebook of uninterrupted twaddle.
_Yes Mr Cushion, I am speaking about myself. _
So in a sense as we know ourself so too we have the space to allow compassion, empathy and joy aka 'the good stuff' to arise in us.
. . And when it arises, what to do? Sharing however that is understood, becomes a natural extension . . . In a deep sense, listening is a form of expression.
Yes, and tho this occurred a few weeks ago, I am grateful to still 'feel' what I did was 'best'. That is not always the case!
Is it part empathy and compassion discerning what is going to be heard?
I think it's more about our trust. Empathy comes later. Usually it's our survival instincts that kicks in first, weeding out the good, the bad, useful, and not useful. Interestingly this is sorta related.
@Hamsaka
She asked your opinion expecting answers that will validate her self-view. She should not have asked if she was not prepared to listen. You are not psychic and were merely giving your view. At least your done your part in "clearing the air".
I think the formula should look like this...
If True and (Useful or Welcome) then State It
The reason I have not included Timely is that it is basically included in welcome. If it is not welcome to the point that it turns away the other person and they shut off their ears then it may not be useful either. If it is welcome and true it may be useful in letting them know their positive traits. They all seemed to be connected in that way. But the reason for the 'or' between useful and welcome is that something may be useful in helping someone see something but they may not want to hear it.
Now I have to go back and read the details of everyone else's opinions. There could be all sorts of ideas that could change my whole opinion.
Thanks, I guess it is that she asked which comforts me during this chilly time between me and my only sibling. This is a perfect example of the ongoing difficulty in our relationship (from my side of it anyway). My expectations are awfully high, because we are family, but I think functionally it's important for both of us to have some degree of trust and intimacy now that our parents are aging and soon she and I will be 'elders' so to speak.
My hope is this will be an opportunity for both of us to be closer, not further apart than we already are. We may be sisters, but we aren't really 'friends' and this is one reason. I feel pretty sad about what we don't have between us, and I'd welcome HER feedback to me very much, I have irritating things about me too that I'd rather know about.
Yes trust. This is why we initially listen to the one person who knows our truth, which is us. In a sense by listening to this fraud, babbling self deceiver, out of control monkey minded truth refugee (yep that would be me), we develop insight or as you describe a weeding potential . . .
hmmm
You seem like an solid individual who can take criticism well but you are also feeling a little down because of all the negativity that came your way after your actions. Likely they did not explain very well why what you said was improper simply placing judgments and providing no constructive criticisms.
I am not fully aware of the situation as that would be impossible but I do understand some generalizing about people and I know that although people are absorbed they are not generally so vicious to purposely destroy someone for pleasure.
The question remains is "recruiting allies" what you really said and indicated? If it is you described her as someone so vicious to destroy with pleasure or intention as apposed to your initial analysis of her being simply needing of validation because she faces guilt while seeking her desires. Does your frustration make you use such phrasing when writing this at this moment or was it during the interaction with her caused by a buildup of so many years of frustration?
If you did paint that picture "recruiting allies" then you have said something non-useful as it does not help her come to the root of the problem and is only likely to show her your final judgment without consideration for the feelings and emotions and problems that she faced to get there. You failed to understand her.
Perhaps I am wrong in this as I only have this simple and small post to go by without even knowing a thing about you or your sister. I am sorry if I caused you anymore grief in this matter but if it is false then you simply accept it as a false understanding and disregard my analysis. Tossing away an guilt that may have contributed to it.
If it is true perhaps you can try to understand her instead and work with her to help her instead of further driving her away.
Hi, @Hamsaka! I have found that it is precisely the people less receptive to advice in my environment the ones who constantly ask for advice.
Like it happened to you with your sister, you give your point of view, and when it does not match their personal perception of the situation, the air chills.
To this kind of people I usually say "Do you really want to hear my opinion or do you just want me to validate your own point of view?"
Now you are talkin'
In essence we see through our self/selves. We may still be entrapped by their karmic accumulations but at least that becomes transparent to us . . .
How to go about the weeding process? . . . another thread for that . . .