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If You Meet Linji On The Road..
Citta
Veteran
If you meet Linji on the road..give him a wee hug. Poor chap.
2
Comments
Ah dear, @Citta.... what are you like....?
I know...
@Citta: many of us know what you mean, but shouldn't you be more explicit if you want to keep the thread rolling?
So Linji said: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."
Well I didn't want to dwell on it @Dharmamom..he had obviously got out of the wrong side of the bed...
We all have those days I guess...
I get the feeling I'm missing something...
We all need compassion but why especially Linji?
Because he was the author of the aphorism "If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill him!"
@Citta is of the opinion that due to the diversification and progress of Buddhism in the West, the phrase no longer has the original intention or resonance...
I knew the first part but I guess I missed the inside slant.
@Citta could be right but it would really depend on who is using the phrase and how they explain it.
I mean, it was probably misunderstood by many in the east as well, lol. That these phrases can be confounding seems to be a part of their purpose.
Thanks, @Federica.
Having now read the claim I have to say it's the first I've heard it. However even if it's true, it doesn't change the meaning either way so I don't see how it's being misconstrued.
I thought it was a ridiculous koan when I first heard it. However it does work as an ironic statement, as in if you meet the Buddha on the road submit your life to his service. Not sure irony was the intention though.
In a culture which had been nominally Buddhist for centuries it had resonance.
Now its just the norm.
My mentor Jon Kabot -Zinns interpretation
"Which means that any conceptual attachments to Buddha or enlightenment are far from the mark"
I always took it to mean,
"That is just one more attachment you need to dispose of, even if he is the 'founder' and primary Teacher of the practice you adhere to!"
I can imagine the Buddha himself getting a good laugh out of it.Bob
Which has resonance in a culture like that of 9th century China where conceptual attachments to the Buddha or Enlightenment were part of the cultural norm.
We live in the Kaliyuga where nihilism rules.
It does make sense in the internet though so in a way it could be more relevant than ever.
I had ideas, conceptions , expectations of what meditation , mindfulness, enlightenment "should "be like along the way. A saying like this is just another reminder to drop that stuff , that's all ,-in a humorous way.
Lin-chi founded his school during the period of Great Persecution 842 to 845. So there always a bit more to the story.
No doubt. The problem comes when it is quoted out of context in an age of loss of meaning.
We should have ideas and expectations of meditation, mindfulness,and enlightenment.
Thats what the Dharma is for.
Its the other stuff we drop.
We are not living in medieval China . We are living in a culture where values are confused, and people are drifting into Dukkha fuelled behaviours.
We need all the help and all the structure we can get.
Just as long as you don't mind getting hit with a stick!
He only does that because no one hugged him as a child. Aw....
We should have ideas and expectations of meditation, mindfulness,and enlightenment.
Thats what the Dharma is for.
Its the other stuff we drop.
We are not living in medieval China . We are living in a culture where values are confused, and people are drifting into Dukkha fuelled behaviours.
We need all the help and all the structure we can get.
I guess thats where we "part ways' so to speak. I have found expectations a hindrance, for my practice. Perhaps we (or I) are just not communicating our thoughts properly? What ever way works for you I would not be in disagreement with. Bob
@seeker242. The one time I got the stick I had built up a really hard knot between my shoulder blades. I recall the stick as being mercifully applied as it dissolved the knot.
I guess we do part ways. I am off to place flowers at the Buddha's feet.
Be well.
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Thank you and you as well. ...
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It's also very good at waking you up when you start falling back asleep at 4AM! The stick is much misunderstood!
I agree. In a way, the saying still has the same meaning it originally did. It still essentially means, "do not become attached to an established image of awakening. Allow it to open up as an organic experience."
Sure, we live in a different culture than the one Buddhism originally arose in, but not all of us are totally taken over by nihilism and cultural relativism. Many of us still have our attachments to images of awakening that are getting the way of the real thing. Heck, I know I sure do.
AAauuugggghhhhh!
I find that "koan" to be the loss leader of the koan offerings.
Attachments are as intensified by trying to kill them, as by clinging to them. When was the last time your teacher suggested killing anything?
Are mass killers just folks like us who see the Buddha everywhere?????
If you meet the Buddha on the road, you've only met yourself..
If you don't meet the Buddha on the road, you haven't been paying enough attention.
Thich Nhat Hanh is a modern monk who revied master linji. Lets see what I recall haha.
http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Battles-Modern-Commentary-Teachings/dp/1937006530
This is an incidence where I cherry pick Linji and try to get what I can help. I too put flowers in my shrine as a gift to Buddha.
That ^^^ is what I got out of it.
TNH said Linji gave a spiritual enema or laxative or something. So he wanted his monks to be in the present rather than very knowledgeable. Horses for courses.
The last time I spoke to him, he was going to kill a cat. I tried putting a shoe on my head to stop him, but that didn't work...
@seeker242
I think I read about you in a book. Perhaps that shoe might have been better applied to the teachers head than yours and with enough force to have him forget all about that cat.
Kia Ora,
If You Meet Linji On The Road..
Ask for directions but don't mistake his finger that points out the direction for the direction given ie the destination...
Afterwhich wish him a good day and may he be happy( oh and don't forget to ask about his family) then carry on your merry middle way _:D _
Metta Shoshin:)
I am a simple soul.
I am not clever.
I cannot do paradox. I despise koans.
My yes is yes, my no is no.
My Buddha is revered.
My ignorance is , if not killed, at least given a good talking to.
I would just say to those who like Linji...remember that what you find useful may be a stumbling block to the next person...and of course vice-versa.
Dont try to understand the Vajrayana by the use of Theravadin concepts..or vice versa.
And don't try to clarify the output of other schools of Buddhadharma by referencing what goes down big in Zen circles...
I will try that! But I don't think it's going to work. He's very persistent and has a good memory. :P
Geez! Its a humorous, abiet, irreverent metaphor!
FWIW, the cat killing koan is the koan that my teacher currently has me working on.
I'm not just talking nonsense. 
It's "Nansen Kills the Cat", Case 14 of The Gateless Gate
The question he has put to me is "How can you save the cat?" I answered by putting my shoe on my head and he laughed and said "No, no no! You can't just copy Joshu! You have to come up with your own answer!"
So then I said "Well, if I gave one word of zen, I would save the cat". So he said "So then give me one word of zen". I pointed the the cushion and said "cushion!" He laughed again and said "No, no, no! It's not some general word of zen, it's a very specific word"
Koan practice is good zen practice method.
Conditioned irreverence has become as predictable and as meaningless as conditioned reverence.
Seth McFarlane is as much a product of consensual reality as is Rush Limbaugh.
They create each other.
@Citta I doubt Buddha would want to be revered. I think he would find the saying funny.
Really ? Our need to invent a Buddha in our own image is curious.
The historical Buddha had a different view to our egalitarian one.
When a young Brahmin called Ambattha visited the Buddha to question him, instead of sitting at the feet of the Buddha he walked backwards and forwards as he spoke.
The Buddha gently but firmly admonished him and made it clear that he expected the same degree of deference as was given to the Brahmin teachers.
In other words that Ambattha should sit at his feet.
He called himself " The Teacher Of Gods And Men ".
He was called to his face, " The Wisest Of Men ".." The Best Of Men "," The Sage Of The Sakyas " " The World Honoured One " among other epithets.
He did not indicate any discomfort with being honoured in this way.
He made it clear that to harm an arahant , to say nothing of a Buddha, was a guaranteed way to experience hell states...
That is not the Buddha of my understanding. Be curious then. So we disagree. No big deal. ...
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Its the historical Buddha of the Suttas. As recorded by his contemporaries.
They are all available in translation.
Quoting from another site, and I think it's a good analogy:
'Comparing the Buddha to any other man is like comparing Mozart to any other composer.'
"When God wants to hear music for his own enjoyment, the Angels play Bach.
When the angels want to hear music for their own enjoyment, they play Mozart."
Yes it is. It's called spiritual materialism.
I think there's a fine line between taking the Buddha as refuge and a contrived image of what we desire him to be. Cross the line from refuge to contrivance and we only revere ourselves.
I can't imagine any of us being any clearer on the Buddha than we are on ourselves.
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Au contraire. We are types, he is the archetype.
He is a construct within a construct...
No, we are the construct.
When he was asked if he was a man or a God, he answered " I am Awake ".
Note not " I am just a guy like you "..
So you a construct constructing an idea, image of buddha from whatever sources you have ...
The problem we have here, is that you two are like itching powder to one another....
What exactly the source is I don’t know, but I heard this from a Theravada-teacher; that all three types of comparing oneself are delusional or not-helpful.
So all three statements; “I am superior”, “I am inferior” and "I am equal” , are beside the point.
I think that’s a huge “killer”of ego; a killer of superior ego, a killer of inferior ego and a killer of equal ego.
A fair enough observation @federica. I am out of the thread.
Which in any case was a joke. Please feel free to close it.
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