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Current conflict Israel
cook99
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"One child has been killed in Gaza every hour for the past two days," said a statement released Wednesday by the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA).
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What kind of response are you looking to get from such a thread title?
"yes, of course it is!"....?
For me, your question begs another:
Is it justifiable to kill guilty adults? Certainly that was asked by way of contrast, and like most people, I have an emotional reaction to children dying that is stronger than hearing of a guy dying in a bar fight... but I suspect that is my own shortcoming.
It's sickening, sure (I mean the situation in Gaza, lol.). But it's precisely the mentality of the Zionists that does make this possible (not justifiable, though).
I've had a few family members over in Israel in the last few weeks and am so tired of all the drama. At one point I think I might have hurt one of them in referring to the place as "what you call the holy land." I regret having done so, but I think such terminology is just too narrow. (Isn't the holy land the area around Mecca, after all?)
In my own life, if there's a Holy Land it'd have to be my native South Dakota. It's the holiest place I know.
I know what people mean by holly land, but just doesn't make sense to me. It is just pieces of rocks and soil. It doesn't have any residues god or enlightened mind. I think it is more personal attachment than anything else. Any way this is just how I feel.
I have to agree with most of the sentiments of @Meatball and @Nirvana.
I'm 64 now and there has been no time in my lifetime when that region has been at peace. Frankly, I honestly believe that liking war has become ingrained in their psyche. And yes, I actually mean that. Neither side (or sides) has made any real effort to eradicate the constant animosity.
And yes, in my view, as well, even if dirt and rocks can be holy, there is nothing holy left in that geography. In fact, I'd say it has -- over the decades -- become hell on earth. Why cling to it?
There's a pastor in the UK who refuses to permit "Oh Little Town of Bethlehem" to be sung at Christmas. The second line goes "How still we see thee lie". He says it's an utter farcical joke.
Kind of a poor choice of title, the topic would be better covered with a better title...
Yes, the conflict has been ongoing for a very, very long time. But it's also very unbalanced, when you look at the amount of damage, injuries and death that Israel has sustained versus what they have caused in Gaza. I'm far from an expert on the topic, but it seems a bit like if the US was at war with Sweden and saying Sweden needs to do something to step up and end the war. That a country supposedly as advanced as Israel, and backed by the US does what they are doing is reprehensible. Not that it makes it ok that Hamas is doing what they are. But it's kind of a David and Goliath thing, and today a UN building was bombed. It's pretty inexcusable, the types of information Israel should have, this shouldn't be happening. Also, the calling thing I keep hearing about (I have not verified if it is true yet) is just nuts. They'll call your house and tell you evacuate quickly because they are going to bomb you? How nice.
In any case, you won't find a normal person who tells you that sure, it's ok to bomb and kill innocent children.
What's happening (and has been happening) to the people of Gaza is a horrible crime, in my opinion.
The Israeli children's deaths are as unspeakable as the children dying in Gaza (at a heck of a larger rate).
I've been trying to understand this 'conflict' on my own. I have friends who are militant anti-Zionists and others who defend Israel's actions. I don't dare open my mouth to even ask questions of either side, it doesn't seem they are all that interested in understanding what's happening, they already have it all figured out.
Hamas are obviously terrorists and Israel pretends to not occupy mandatory Palestine. They are both idiots and engaged in evil acts. The US are 'stuck' in their obligation to prop up Israel because it is integral to all the other at-risk political issues between the US and the Middle East. Israel does whatever they want in spite of the UN's directives and Hamas hides their missiles in hospitals and schools.
My Christian friend who sympathizes with the Palestinian plight wondered out loud if the US supports Israel because our population primarily identifies as Christian and because the two religions have a common root, we believe the Jews are still regarded as God's Chosen people. At first I was flummoxed at what a preposterous idea that was, and then I had to wonder. Clearly politics and money provide the energy, but how much of the energy in this is driven by religious sentiment? On the US side of things, not between the Palestinians and Israelites.
The consequences of the US pulling its support from Israel are not to be trifled with. It's too late in the game.
It really is like David and Goliath @Karasti, isn't it? A US funded and backed formal military power at war with guerrillas armed with rockets they can barely aim. If Hamas played by the 'rules' they would have been a grease spot in the road years ago, but they are still very much in the game.
Oh and don't forget the actual Palestinians stuck in the middle.
Apparently it's very green though!!!!
Sorry....couldn't help myself.
I often make light of terrible things as defence mechanism. My wife has criticised me more than once for 'guffawing' when one of our kids hurts themselves.
Ah, the Palestinian question. What is the solution?
@pegembara be mindful in the present moment. Observe your thoughts with out bias.
The Western world more or less created Israel.
The Israel more or less created Hamas.
It is a shitty world. Buddha was spot on that too.
Yes we did...because Jews deserved their sandbox, too.
And, well after 60 years of Israel's existence, I'd say it's time for the Arabs to get over it and decide to live instead of die day in and day out.
60 years is just a p in the ocean @vinlyn. The Singhala and the Tamils have been at it for 2000 years of recorded history. And probably even further back.
Westerners are so naive sometimes. And they keep on making the same mistake. Irak then Afghanistan. It's like they are planning for the rest of the world to go down the drains or more like a total incomprehension of other peoples ways to think and behave.
/Victor
Kia Ora,
When it comes to the Middle East conflict, the belief in a "God" has got a lot to answer for...After all the only thing that separates these semitic people is their 'belief' in a god...
The Holy Lands should be renamed Hollow lands (without real or significant worth; meaningless:)
It truly is a sorry state of affairs, innocent man, women and children suffering and dying for what ? ? ? A belief of ownership which stems from a misguided belief in some supernatural deity ie, believing it's their "God Given right" to bomb, kill and butcher each other over a piece of dirt...
From a Buddhist perspective "karma" comes into play, and even if it is a form of collective karma, I can't help but feel a deep sense of compassion for all "ignorant" parties involved...
Life is truly "Dukkha" especially for those in the Middle East ( AKA The Hollow Lands) ...
Metta Shoshin .
..
60 years may be just a p in the ocean...but all the wasted lives in 60 years are not. They clearly care nothing about their children.
hi
Goliath was born in palestine.
I think killing is wrong and that Israel is
bordering on losing any world standing it had.
however what would you do if someone was lobing
rockets over the wall? What happens if hamas get
better weapons.. better rockets?
So if diplomacy aint working what next?
In war there is no substitute for victory (mcArthur)
slainte
Collective punishment comes to mind. Innocent lives be damned.
http://www.newsweek.com/graphic-video-allegedly-shows-wounded-civilian-killed-israeli-sniper-260122
"This conflict defies rational argument and bypasses understanding. Here are people so blinded by pain that they cannot recognise suffering in anyone else. Jews and Palestinians have spent so many years beating each other and being beaten that they have become nothing more than a bruise and a stick."
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/01/my-jewish-mother-my-palestinian-father-and-family-torn-apart-260422.html
The more you hate the enemy, the more you become like them!
The only people profiting in this shit fight is the media.
Everyone outside of the warzone has not a clue what's going on. No matter what they THINK they know............
This comment is so wrong on so many levels. You insinuate I am concearned about the timespan and not the lifes lost? Think again my friend.
And ... Seriously you are gonna squabble about whos fault it is and blame it on the Arabs?
Thats such a cliche.
The warring parties care nothing for others children nor any other human lives for that matter. And that goes for all conflicts in the world.
/Victor
You are your enemy.
Jesus said it best in the story of the Good Samaritan. We have no enemies except those we create in our own minds. How many years ago did he say that? Yet people still fight.
Truly there is only enough religion in the world to make people hate each other.
No religion says it's justified to kill innocent children. No religion has stopped people from going to war, where innocents always get killed or maimed for life, either directly from the weapons or from the disease and hunger that follow the conflict.
AlaN Watts had a great quote:
If your going to try and take over a country, do so for good old fashioned greed. A least they will respect woman, children and property if only to possess them.
Don't fight a war for righteous beliefs, to do so in the name of religion means your a monster. A pure sadist or a pure. Destroyer who knows nothing of being human.
Another cool quote. Not sure who from. "God didn't create man in image of himself, man made god in the image of himself"
Metta chris
I don't know anyone in or from Israel. But I have a close friend who is from Palestine, I don't recall exactly where. His wife is from Gaza. So I talk to him and see the story through his emotions and his eyes. It is not balanced, of course, but in his view, Israel is attacking innocent people while supposedly hunting terrorists...so who is the real terrorist?
I think religion comes into play for US involvement more than we want to admit. Money and resources always comes first, but the degree to which our heads of state/congress/supreme court make decisions based on their personal religious beliefs is extensive, so I have to believe it comes into play greatly. Take the formerly pregnant Christian who was to be executed in Sudan, and the US got very involved, because of the Christian persecution. Where are we/they as women and others are executed daily in other parts of the world...except they are not Christian? Just one small example. So i believe absolutely it comes into play in larger issues.
As long as US exists, there is no chance of world peace. It just thrives on violent and wars every where. It's economy also very much depends on wars. It is sad my tax money is used to kill innocents everywhere. This is just how I feel about it. I hope I am wrong.
No @Victorious, I don't blame it on the Arabs. I have rather consistently blamed both sides for the never-ending conflict.
What I implied was that despite -- over the years -- various Arab leaders saying things like wanting to wipe Israel off the map, in reality, Israel is here to stay. And to paraphrase an old saying, if the Arabs always do what they've always done -- which is what they have been doing for 6 decades now -- they'll always get the same mess they are mired in.
At the same time, just as the Jews deserved a homeland, so do the people of Gaza. Same principle. But if the people of Israel continue to do what they've been doing -- not attempting to solve the situation and often using a sledge hammer to swat a fly -- they will get the same mess they are mired in, as well.
There is nothing pro-Israeli or pro-Arab in the original comment I made: "I'm 64 now and there has been no time in my lifetime when that region has been at peace. Frankly, I honestly believe that liking war has become ingrained in their psyche. And yes, I actually mean that. Neither side (or sides) has made any real effort to eradicate the constant animosity."
Let me re-emphasize that last sentence: Neither side (or sides) has made any real effort to eradicate the constant animosity.
In a way it's too bad that they changed the title of this thread (without having said so, as far as I can tell). "Is it justifiable to kill innocent children?"
That should be what both Arabs and Israelis alike should ask themselves —every day.
Rather, they ask themselves whether they should ever give up a single square inch of their lands —to which they have inviolable and sacred rights. In other words, it's all about each side being absolutely in the right. That's the problem —that mentality that blocks out all other light.
Agreed. Mostly.
.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/24/headlines#7243
**U.S. Casts Lone No Vote Against U.N. Probe of Israeli War Crimes
As the bombing of Gaza continues, the United Nations Human Rights Council has voted to investigate Israel for potential war crimes. The vote was 29 to one, with 17 abstentions. The United States cast the lone "no" vote. In Washington, State Department spokesperson Marie Harf told reporters: "We will stand up for Israel ... even if it means standing alone."**
Looks like my country is ran by people with satanic characters. With action like this, how can they ask god to bless America?
Don't forget, people have an infinite capacity to justify their actions. Both sides blame the death of innocent children on the other side no matter who pulled the trigger, so neither side actually feels guilty or responsible. Thus people slaughter each other and both sides feel justified. Isn't the human mind an incredible thing? "Look what you made me do!"
Was the vote wrong? In my opinion -- yes.
But to say we are therefore "satanic", and to bring god into it, is an over-reaction.
I also think it's interesting to note some of the countries who voted in favor, including: Algeria, China, Congo, Cuba, Ethiopia, Kenya, Kuwait, Mexico, Morocco, Namibia, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates.... Bastions of personal rights. (sarcasm)
That's what the Muslims who bomb us think anyway. I think we get involved too often and should be more concerned about what's going on right here... but the US going away wouldn't bring world peace, it would open up the possibility of world domination by other countries. I don't like the US being cast as, or acting as, "world cop"... but I appreciate that it's a watchdog against global war.
I think it's hard to deny that this current round of violence between Israel and Hamas began when Israel accused Hamas of abducting and murdering three Israelis in the West Bank and started cracking down on Hamas. Many were skeptical that Hamas had anything to do with it, and Hamas itself denied any involvement (which has recently been confirmed by an Israeli police spokesman who said that "a lone cell not operating under Hamas leadership was responsible for the abduction and killing of three Israeli teens last month"); nevertheless, Netanyahu was quick to place the blame squarely on Hamas, saying, "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay."
So despite Hamas' denial of involvement, and little to no proof they were involved, Israel initiated a crackdown of Hamas anyway as Netanyahu declared they "knew 'for a fact' that the kidnapping was Hamas’ work." Numerous arrests of Hamas members took place (including members released during the 2011 prisoner exchange), and both commercial and pedestrian crossings into Gaza were closed. As the crackdowns were intensifying, Hamas began firing homemade rockets into Israel in retaliation. Israel responded in turn with 6 airstrikes in Gaza, followed by the shooting death of 15 year-old Mohammad Dudin by the IDF during a search of his home for the three other teens, intensifying outrage.
The violence escalated from there, with more Israeli airstrikes, more rocket fire from Hamas, and the murder of a 16 year-old Palestinian boy, who was found "burned alive in a Jerusalem forest, the day after the burial of the three Israeli teens," presumably in revenge. Cue more rocket fire from Hamas (which the US condemned), hundreds of airstrikes by the IDF (which the US said nothing about, of course), and an eventual ground invasion of Gaza by the IDF, culminating thus far in 850 Palestinian casualties (mostly civilians according to the UN) and 5,200 injured (again mostly civilians).
In addition to instigating this round of violence, Israel claims it's not intentionally targeting civilians, warning people to leave before attacks come, but Gaza in an open-air prison, there's nowhere for people to go. Israel has bombed almost every part of Gaza, including beaches, hospitals, mosques, sports arenas, fishing boats, and schools, many without any warning at all, like the UN Relief and Works Agency school that was converted into a make-shift shelter for Palestinian families. Yes, there have been Israeli casualties as well, approximately 35 soldiers and 3 civilians (one of which was delivering provisions to soldiers), which are just as tragic as those killed by Israeli forces. But I have a hard time feeling sympathy for Israel's position.
What's happening, and has been happening, to the people of Gaza is a horrible crime; and it has to be condemned as well as discouraged, especially by the US. But that's not likely to happen, and I can only conclude from the recent, unanimous Senate vote in support of Israel that our politicians are so blinded by money, political ambition, and/or a clearly one-sided narrative that not one is willing to stand up and say this is wrong and that we need to immediately withdraw our monetary, diplomatic, and military support until Israel ceases this carnage, halts its continued settlement expansions, and ends its apartheid-style treatment of Palestinians.
That's why I stand with Gaza.
Thanks for the summary, Jason.
My sympathy is with the Palestinians also. The Israeli commanders are criminals, in my opinion.
So let's say that the US totally stopped supporting Israel. Now let's see...what would happen? Total peace. Right?
This whole thing is two brothers who have been fighting each other for thousands of years, it will never end and is one of the many many many places the US government should be out of both financially and militarily.
being the "world police" never works, the UN is a complete sham of an organization that shouldn't of existed in the first place and is used as a puppet of the major powers. Regional conflicts need to be handled by the people in said region, and all countries do by getting involved in other people's business is to breed resentment and hatred, look at how well America has done in the past 40 years propping up and supporting every "evil" person we eventually had to take out later.
Even if our taking a hard stand and pushing Israel to it stop its current assault, halt its continued settlement expansions, and end its apartheid-style treatment of Palestinians didn't lead to a lasting peace, I think it's preferable to unanimously supporting what's going on. YMMV, of course.
Here's the problem I have with that scenario:
People (not you, necessarily) say that the US shouldn't be the world's policeman, BUT we should take a hard stand and pushing Israel to it stop its current assault, halt its continued settlement expansions, and end its apartheid-style treatment of Palestinian. That is being a world's policeman.
But your comment doesn't answer my question. If we simply bowed out tomorrow, what do you think would happen?
According to some (including on this forum) the U.S. is the problem. So I guess they think there would be instant peace.
Others would say Israel would stop holding back at all without the restraint of the US support and bomb the hell out their neighbors, including the use of nuclear weapons that we all "know" Israel has.
Others would say that the "Arabs" would do exactly what they say they want to do -- wipe Israel off the map.
Let's face it -- there is no apparent solution to the problems.
I don't think there is a solution, either. This is a religious war, and the dead Muslim civilians are 'martyrs' with tickets to Heaven in Hamas's eyes. That puts stockpiling their rockets in hospitals in perspective. Life doesn't matter. The goal of Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map, it is a directive from the Quran as far as they are concerned. Hamas doesn't want a free Palestine, they want NO Israel. So whether we (the US) stay or go has no impact I can see. The general public believe Palestine is at war with Israel, that these poor people just want their own land back, but that doesn't look like the case at all. Hamas is at war with Israel and the Palestinian people are being used by Hamas as a 'weapon' of media terrorism (Oh look at all the poor innocents Israel is killing!).
I don't think 'the rest of us' onlookers realize even if Israel gave up air, sea and land access control over Gaza and threw in Jerusalem that Hamas will not stop -- land and 'free Palestine' is not their goal, it never was.
I think you're correct, Hamsaka.
And I'll add this: The size of Gaza is 32 X 7 miles. Tiny. If the Arab neighbors really wanted the Gaza people to have a homeland, couldn't one of the comparatively huge Arab nations in the region spare a little strip of land that big? No, they can't, because it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with destroying Israel.
And just for the record, I am far more on the side of the people of Gaza than I am on the side of Israel, and I think the American Congress should quit kissing Israel's ass. But all those are side issues to the real issue.
Me too, I am horrified for the Palestinian people. Unfortunately, SOMEBODY Palestinian voted in Hamas, but let's be frank, who 'voted' and what constitutes a 'vote' in the context of that kind of mindset? Hardly inspires democracy, so I'm not thinking the Palestinians getting bombed are the ones who voted in Hamas.
As for Israel, I try to put myself in their situation, which I probably can't. Maybe it's a lot like having a horrible neighbor who keeps letting his vicious dogs out and they attack my kids or my animals. After a while, I would have a very hard time remembering my neighbor is just another human being like me, every time I found another dead chicken or took my kid in for stitches or worse. Add in Israel's own religious underpinnings, and the long history of genocide and oppression inflicted on the Jews. There's a few articles out there pulling THAT card "We Jews have been the target of some or other pogrom since 1400 BC" or along those lines. That just pisses me off. So THAT'S an excuse, a reason for Israel bombing people in a fish bowl? I doubt most Jews would touch that one with a ten foot pole!
I don't think the American Congress DARES NOT kiss Israel's ass. It's a shame.
Well, for starters, I don't think we should simply 'bow out'; I think we need to actively put pressure on Israel to loosen its chokehold of Gaza and the West Bank and negotiate a one-state solution seeing as how I don't think a two-state solution will work given the history and logic of settler states.
As for the rest, I agree that the US is part of the problem in terms of its fervent support of Israel and its policies (including monetary and military support), as well as our fairly aggressive foreign policy in the region over the past 60+ years. I think both of those things need to change for there to be any hope of a peaceful end to these conflicts. Sitting back while they basically shoot fish in a barrel with Gaza isn't a better alternative, in my opinion.
There was recently a vote held to investigate possible war crimes by Israel. The only dissenter? The US. Because we will stand up for Israel no matter what. I thought that was pretty significant, but it lost something when I saw the list of countries that voted for the war crimes investigation...many, many of them countries who have anything but decent human rights records.
In the end, for me, it's just incredibly saddening, all through history, the lengths humans go to kill and maim other human beings in the name of beliefs, land, resources, money and so on. It doesn't feel like I can do anything about it. Knowing it happens is distressing. Knowing I can do nothing is also distressing. Sometimes, the Ignorance Is Bliss road seems most appealing.
I know what you mean. It's all so disheartening.
Me too @Karasti. I said before I have acquaintances who are anti-Zionists protesting in Los Angeles and posting pictures of dead little boys and then other acquaintances supporting or apologizing for Israel. Both sides seemed to be just hoisting their petard and chanting a 'party line' and you and I know there's more emotion and less logic in a party line than ought to be legal lol.
So I spent some time looking at both sides and paying attention to WHOM was writing and where their loyalties lie. After a while, I feel better educated but like you, less able than ever to even have an idea about the whole thing.
Hamas is high fiving each other with every European and American city blowing up with anti-Israel protests. While the civilians under THEIR supposed 'governance' are without power or clean water or food, Hamas sees themselves as gaining ground on the world's stage -- they are in the headlines once again.
What I find JUST as unfortunate and despairing as Hamas's passive genocide of Palestinians and Israel's whining and bullying is how quickly the rest of the world swallows either side's propaganda hook line and sinker. Once again, the point is being missed and if someone were to try and engage either side in some OBVIOUS questions and facts that don't fit, that someone would be shouted down and accused of siding with the baby killers in Israel or supporting terrorism.
I'm not a huge fan of Hamas, but to be fair to them, every protest is a good thing from their point of view media-wise. For one, they've got mostly negative press over the past few years, generally being portrayed as little more than violent terrorists and nothing else, even when they'e tempered their violent behaviour and their political arm was elected to power.
Taking a look at the history of this region, it's a very one-sided portrayal, and many people overlook harmful Israeli policies and actions, as well as Israel's own past with terrorist groups. With increasingly more people protesting Israel's actions, it helps put a spotlight on the region and can potentially help push foreign governments to intervene. In addition, Israel supplies water and electricity to the Gaza Strip, as well as all access to the region. Hamas has no control over that. They're at the mercy of Israel besides what little can be smuggled in.
Yes, Hamas is involved in acts of terrorism, but at the same time, much of what they do can also be seen as resistance to Israel's occupation, continued settlement expansions, and apartheid-style treatment of Palestinians, not unlike the actions of the ANC in apartheid South Africa.
While I think you make a good point about people simply swallowing of one side or the other, I also think it's hard to deny the terrible amount of suffering the people of Gaza and the West Bank have been forced to endure, particularly the high number of civilians casualties.
That being said, I'm willing to concede that the Palestinians, or at least a certain section of the population, are basically their own worst enemy when they fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel. Even though I see these attacks as acts of desperation that do relatively little damage, they do kill innocent people. Moreover, it makes them look bad in the international media, as well as provokes retaliations by Israel, who obviously have the upper hand militarily.
But as much sympathy as I have for Israel and Jewish people in general, who have experienced their fair share of suffering, I think the suffering and misery experienced by the entire civilian population of Gaza is appalling and agree with John Ging, former director of operations for the refugee agency UNRWA in Gaza, that it's "creating fertile ground for the extremists."
I think that's part of the (and many) problem(s) around the world. People want to simply see "it" as one side is good and right, the other is bad and wrong, and in reality it's almost always a mixed bag of good and bad.
Israel can't wear the white hat here. But I think anything that would limit the influence of Israel and its ability to defend itself would unleash another type of hell that few of us could imagine.