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God

Hello. I am new to the forum. I am sure that this has been talked about before, but I would like to post a question.

I was raised in a conservative Christian home and have always practiced the Christian faith. In recent years, however, I have become somewhat dis-enchanted with Christianity. I have studied about Buddhism quite a bit and find that I resonate with it, that it is much more practical to my daily life, and that overall, it makes more sense than Christianity. I just have one hang-up: God.

I no longer believe in God in the way that I was raised as a Christian. I believe that God exists more as the Source - or energy - behind the universe. A consciousness that is greater than us. It seems to me that things like karma and reincarnation (I know Buddhists differ on these things) point to some consciousness that is behind those things. Yet, I find that most Buddhists don't want to speak of or believe that there is a God type consciousness behind these things. I understand the whole God is irrelevant to Buddhism thing, but it still bothers me on some level that there is not more of an openness to the idea of God (not a personal God) in Buddhism.

Thoughts?

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Comments

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    I bring up this poem often in threads about Buddhism and God but if you have not read it before, I urge you to read "Call me by my true names" by Thich Nhat Hanh.

    I'm on my phone at the moment but it can be found by googling it.

  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran

    There is no creator God in Buddhism.

    Buddha taught about the cycle of Samsara which is "Uncontrolled Rebirth and Death"
    There are many Gods and Goddess but they are subject to Death like the rest of us.

    Rebirth or Reincarnation as you put it is not a cause that comes from any sort of creator but rather a result of a persons accumulated karma which throws them into their next Rebirth.

    Although a Creator God may not exist within Buddhism there are plenty of Buddha's that practitioners rely on, As seen in the top left of the Wheel of life there is a depiction of Amitabha Buddha practitioners and devotes of this Buddha rely on his practice to Transform their minds and lead their consciousness to Sukhavati Pureland after death.

    Buddhists are not open to the ideas you suggest because they do not make sense in the light of Buddha's instructions either in Theravada, Mahayana or Vajrayana.

    Hope this helps. :)

    upekka
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Don't make the assumption that all Buddhists don't believe in God. I have no idea what thread it was, but a while back there was one where quite a few of us said that we believed in God, but not necessarily in the standard Christian view of God.

    For example, I see myself as somewhat of a secularist. I look at Buddhism and Christianity from more of a philosophical perspective than a religious perspective. Such a view can free you up from the idea that you have to discard one religion before you fall into another. I believe in God, but my experiences in life have convinced me that, for the most part, God is not a micro-manager of an individual's life, or even human life, in general. I don't try to convince anyone else of that viewpoint...it's just where I am.

    I take wisdom where I find it. And I find an immense amount of wisdom in Buddhism...and in the New Testament...and many other places, as well.

    SarahT
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @kriscmh said:

    I understand the whole God is irrelevant to Buddhism thing, but it still bothers me on some level that there is not more of an openness to the idea of God (not a personal God) in Buddhism.

    To practise Buddhism you don't have to drop one set of beliefs and take on another. You might find though that your beliefs and assumptions will change over time.

    vinlynSarahT
  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran
    edited August 2014

    @kriscmh‌ You say Buddhism isn't open, but I disagree. I think you are not open to the possibility that there is no God. :D Give me good reason to believe in God, and I will. At that point I will even try to convince others, because I care about truth. Buddhism seems to largely be about truth itself, and not faith-based propositions.

    mmoBuddhadragon
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @AldrisTorvalds, that is the same thing -- give me a good reason to believe -- that many of us say about rebirth (as just one example). But why necessarily make an effort to convince others?

  • @AldrisTorvalds said:
    kriscmh‌ You say Buddhism isn't open, but I disagree. I think you are not open to the possibility that there is no God. :D Give me good reason to believe in God, and I will. At that point I will even try to convince others, because I care about truth. Buddhism seems to largely be about truth itself, and not faith-based propositions.

    How do you know that I am not open to the possibility that there is no God? :) Actually, I went through and Agnostic/Atheist period for a few years. However, I believe that there is something larger than us that is behind all of this. I just do. I would like to fit that within a Buddhist approach.

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    @vinlyn God and literal muli-lifetime rebirth and Bigfoot are all rowing in the same boat in the middle of an imaginary ocean in someone else's mind. I don't mean I'd go out of my way to convince anyone; I'd just argue for it, like I argue for transience and selflessness. ;)  

    Theswingisyellowmmo
  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran
    edited August 2014

    @kriscmh‌ But why do you believe that? You can believe in God and be a Buddhist; many do. Buddhism itself just doesn't carry that belief. And if it's not anything like the interventionalist Creator of Christianity, why call it God? That's really confusing.

    I only care whether there's good reason to think something is true. People believe things for all sorts of reasons, many of which I consider to be bad reasons. Hence so many religions all claiming different things; so many pseudosciences and con-artists in the world taking advantage of this human weakness.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @AldrisTorvalds said:
    vinlyn God and literal muli-lifetime rebirth and Bigfoot are all rowing in the same boat in the middle of an imaginary ocean in someone else's mind. I don't mean I'd go out of my way to convince anyone; I'd just argue for it, like I argue for transience and selflessness. ;)  

    cool

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2014

    @vinlyn said:
    For example, I see myself as somewhat of a secularist. ....I believe in God

    I still find it puzzling that you're secular about Buddhism but not about God. I'd have thought that anyone with a skeptical orientation would be skeptical about all of it.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:
    I still find it puzzling that you're secular about Buddhism but not about God. I'd have thought that anyone with a skeptical orientation would be skeptical about all of it.

    Why does one's beliefs have to be absolute?

    I stake very little belief in the Old Testament.
    I think every mainstream Christian church has got most of "it" wrong, although they may be very well-meaning.
    I see much wisdom in the overall philosophy of Jesus...at least as it is recorded, but don't have enough evidence to believe in the miracle/magic aspect of it all.
    I also disagree with the extent to which we have come to believe that science is all that coincidental.

    SarahT
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @vinlyn said:

    Aren't secularists skeptical about everything which is religious and / or unverifiable?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited August 2014

    So, SpinyNorman, does it come down to:

    All Christians must believe the entire body of X.
    All Buddhists must believe the entire body of Y.
    All secularists must believe the entire body of Z.

    ?

    It seems to me that if that is true, then secularism is just another religion.

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran
    edited August 2014

    You don't have to be a Skeptic to be a Secularist.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    No, that's not the point. You labelled yourself as a secularist, I'm saying that's it's an incongruous label given your belief in God.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    @kriscmh

    To impart cause and effect with a consciousness, is to study it through Christian colored glasses. That consciousness is only being brought to the table by you.

    People will believe in just about anything that is possible to believe in.

    One of the purposes for** practicing** meditation is to simply allow existence to unfold as it is, free of where both the worldly & the spiritually inclined have habitually dressed it up to suit our own story lines.

    Whatever anyone else wishes to believe, how can that really compare that to you dropping the leash to whatever binds you to such beliefs.

    DairyLamakriscmhBuddhadragon
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @AldrisTorvalds said:
    You don't have to be a Skeptic to be a Secularist.

    The two are inextricably entwined. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Secularist

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    Not in practice.

    Chaz
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @AldrisTorvalds said:
    Not in practice.

    So you're not a skeptic?

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    I am, and I've said I am many times. It's secularists that aren't necessarily Skeptics (note the capital S, not skeptical about just some things but all unsubstantiated claims). I'm an atheist and I know atheists that believe in ghosts and Bigfoot. You don't have to be uber-rational and skeptical to not believe in some things.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    Secularists are by definition skeptical or dismissive about anything religious. So an atheist that believed in ghosts wouldn't be classed as a secularist, and similarly a Buddhist that believed in God wouldn't be classed as a secularist. OK, so I'm being pedantic but I get a bit irritated with the lazy and imprecise use of language we see on forums like this.

    Chaz
  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran
    edited August 2014

    But what's "religious"? Beyond that, being skeptical of religious stuff doesn't make one a Skeptic. Skeptic means you apply skepticism to all unsubstantiated claims, which would include UFO abductions, Bigfoot, ghosts, homeopathy et al... it's the application of intense scrutiny to all areas of belief.

    And when I hear Secular, I think more about how Wikipedia puts it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism). Many people are Secularists without necessarily being Atheists, and certainly without going so far as to consider themselves downright Skeptics. How people actually use the terms is at least as important, if not more so, as the dictionary definitions (which are supposed to reflect usage, not set meanings in stone).

    Anyway I think we're derailing the thread. :D  

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:
    No, that's not the point. You labelled yourself as a secularist, I'm saying that's it's an incongruous label given your belief in God.

    From Wikipedia: "It has been argued that the definiton of secularism has frequently been misinterpreted. In a 2012 Huffington Post article titled Secularism Is Not Atheism, Jacques Berlinerblau, Director of the Program for Jewish Civilization at the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University, wrote that "Secularism must be the most misunderstood and mangled ism in the American political lexicon. Commentators on the right and the left routinely equate it with Stalinism, Nazism and Socialism, among other dreaded isms. In the United States, of late, another false equation has emerged. That would be the groundless association of secularism with atheism. The religious right has profitably promulgated this misconception at least since the 1970s."

    ToraldrislobsterJeffrey
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:
    Secularists are by definition skeptical or dismissive about anything religious. So an atheist that believed in ghosts wouldn't be classed as a secularist, and similarly a Buddhist that believed in God wouldn't be classed as a secularist. OK, so I'm being pedantic but I get a bit irritated with the lazy and imprecise use of language we see on forums like this.

    There are few words, including "secularist", that have one absolutely precise meaning. Take the word "blue". Is there only one exact "blue"? No, there's actually a continuum. Take the word "Buddhist". Are you telling me there's a precise definition of "Buddhist". Because if there were such a precise definition, we wouldn't have so many sects of Buddhism.

    And, it's that continuum of religion that I (and you) are on. I believe in God. I do not believe he micromanages lives. I do not believe that he answers all prayers. There are tons of things about him I don't believe...that are, in my view, just part of the fable that has built up around the concept of God.

    lobsterToraldris
  • @vinlyn said:

    I take wisdom where I find it. And I find an immense amount of wisdom in Buddhism...and in the New Testament...and many other places, as well.

    this is what any intelligent person should do
    but
    remember these are worldly wisdom

    and

    only Buddha's Teaching provides the Wisdom beyond the world

  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    My impression was the Buddha avoided or outright refused to answer questions that begged him to confirm or deny a transcendent Being (Brahma in that day and age).

    The Buddha said it is the question (is there a God?) that is problematic. You can ask the wrong questions and get distracted and go down a completely useless dead-end road.

    There may be a transcendent Being or there may be no such thing -- this question is addressed in the Pali canon (the earliest Buddhist scriptures) as 'not helpful or useful TO answer'.

    KundoSarahT
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    To me, karma and rebirth do not necessarily require a higher being/energy/whatever in order for them to be true. To me, it makes the most sense that these things are stored in our stream of consciousness, which in rebirth is what moves through lives and times. It's not about being accountable to something "out there" that is keeping track. But everyone has a slightly different understanding based on their history, their tradition, their teacher, their reading and other things. That's ok because none of us knows. We just suspect.

    If you want to believe there is something there, you are free to do so, even within Buddhism. The biggest thing to remember is to always keep your mind and heart open so that you are willing to observe your views shifting. You might find they change entirely, a little, or not at all. You might find things you thought you strongly believed in fall away. I have experienced all of those. If you are open to the constant shifting, things will be fine. But when you cling to any belief, such as "I totally believe there is a Godenergy out there, and NO one will EVER convince me otherwise" you are going to miss some thing as you practice and study because of your attachment to that belief. Leave them all up for grabs. You find your way the easiest by being willing to let things go.

    kriscmhStraight_ManSarahT
  • I understand the whole God is irrelevant to Buddhism thing, but it still bothers me on some level that there is not more of an openness to the idea of God (not a personal God) in Buddhism.

    I am perfectly open to gods that transcend their own being/non being. Know any? It is part of my practice, where I am happy to state, 'God is Greater'. In other words God integrates or transcends ideas, labelling, affiliations, my Yahweh is better than your Allah, Faceless Existence, ineffability etc.

    Here is a Buddhist depiction of wisdom (Manjushri), that is only a click away from being and non existence . . .

    anataman
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    When I think of God, I think of a process and a mind set. A universal state of being rather than a being that created the universe.

    When I think of things like natural selection and instinct I feel there must be some kind of driving force at work. Something that tends towards the sharing of information and awakening.

    In my view, even God could not be a permanent and unchanging self because there are an infinite amount of perspectives and constant growth.

    SarahTmmoHamsaka
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Interesting, @ourself.

    Theswingisyellow
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @kriscmh said:
    Hello. I am new to the forum. I am sure that this has been talked about before, but I would like to post a question.

    I was raised in a conservative Christian home and have always practiced the Christian faith. In recent years, however, I have become somewhat dis-enchanted with Christianity. I have studied about Buddhism quite a bit and find that I resonate with it, that it is much more practical to my daily life, and that overall, it makes more sense than Christianity. I just have one hang-up: God.

    I no longer believe in God in the way that I was raised as a Christian. I believe that God exists more as the Source - or energy - behind the universe. A consciousness that is greater than us. It seems to me that things like karma and reincarnation (I know Buddhists differ on these things) point to some consciousness that is behind those things. Yet, I find that most Buddhists don't want to speak of or believe that there is a God type consciousness behind these things. I understand the whole God is irrelevant to Buddhism thing, but it still bothers me on some level that there is not more of an openness to the idea of God (not a personal God) in Buddhism.

    Thoughts?

    Well there is consciousness right? How can conscious intelligence come out of an unintelligent universe?

    I believe we are all part of it. Call it whatever you want :)

    SarahTmmoHamsaka
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    I think consciousness is just an emergent property of biological life.

    Anyway "God" has become a meaningless term because everyone has their own idea about it but can never quite explain what that idea is.

  • @SpinyNorman said:
    Anyway "God" has become a meaningless term because everyone has their own idea about it but can never quite explain what that idea is.

    A bit like Nirvana then?

    A good book on the subject, is this one:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/What-Talk-About-When-God/dp/0007427336

    It's pretty good and non-dogmatic; almost 'Buddhist' in parts.

    vinlyn
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    Buddhists don't believe in god because there is no concept of god in buddhism.

    Perhaps one should be analysing the basis of potential eternal and permanent concepts first before positing God and see where that leads. If you can name something that fulfils the criteria of eternal and permanent, then we might discuss God in a more meaningful way.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @anataman said:
    Buddhists don't believe in god because there is no concept of god in buddhism.

    Perhaps one should be analysing the basis of potential eternal and permanent concepts first before positing God and see where that leads. If you can name something that fulfils the criteria of eternal and permanent, then we might discuss God in a more meaningful way.

    Buddhists are a diverse bunch and some do believe in something similar to God. I don't bother believing but I have a feeling.

    As far as we know, the universe is eternal and permanent even though it is in a constant state of change.

    No need to posit a universal consciousness but it makes sense from some points of view given that awareness is obviously a function of the universe.

    anataman
  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @ourself Matter and energy at least seem to be a mainstay, but all compounded things made up of matter and energy are fleeting.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @AldrisTorvalds said:
    ourself Matter and energy at least seem to be a mainstay, but all compounded things made up of matter and energy are fleeting.

    Well sure, but they change, their essence isn't lost or anything.

    There's nowhere to go, really.

    SarahT
  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran
    edited September 2014

    @ourself What essence? ;) This is, I think, the point.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @AldrisTorvalds said:
    ourself What essence?

    The potential for change.

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    @ourself Perhaps "nature" is better, but I understand you. Anyway that's enough of us derailing the thread. I must go back to learning proper Zazen! :D  

    lobster
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    Nature, essence, Tao, whatever...

    We aren't derailing the thread, this is the topic.

    To be empty is really to be full of potential. The same potential for awareness that has always been.

    SarahTanataman
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited September 2014

    The element of the topic lies within the contents of the first post.

    I understand the whole God is irrelevant to Buddhism thing, but it still bothers me on some level that there is not more of an openness to the idea of God (not a personal God) in Buddhism.

    >

    vinlyn
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @federica said:
    I understand the whole God is irrelevant to Buddhism thing, but it still bothers me on some level that there is not more of an openness to the idea of God (not a personal God) in Buddhism.

    I'm not surprised.

    Most Westerners are running away from their former religion...some form of Christianity. To truly run away, one must reject.

    Some of us are, instead, attempting to broaden our understanding and human being and the world. Rejection is not important to us. It doesn't consume our thinking.

    I am glad that you phrased your sentence perfectly by saying that God is irrelevant in Buddhism, which is not the same as saying God does not exist. And one cannot pretend to be open-minded when they are only open-minded about the things that appeal to them (not you, just in general).

    Jeffrey
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    Is there a God?

    Isn't there a God?

    Does somebody here think that their belief will make one or the other true?

    Anybody want to ask themselves why they care?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    If you read my first post on the subject you will see that that is precisely the point I made. I don't really care one way or the other....

  • Perhaps it is a question of skilfulness and focus.

    There are many things that are not part of what is important to our happiness. Buddhism does not focus on music or scientific discovery.

    In dharma God can be an unnecessary fiddler. However @Tosh in another thread, has described a skilful use of looking for god in situations . . .

    :wave: .

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @vinlyn said:

    Rejection is not important to us. It doesn't consume our thinking.

    I agree that disbelief and rejection can be as problematic as belief and attachment. But then why are the teachings on rebirth still a problem for you?

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @how said:
    Is there a God?

    Isn't there a God?

    Does somebody here think that their belief will make one or the other true?

    Anybody want to ask themselves why they care?

    It's an interesting line of thought is all. There doesn't seem to be room to hang any hope on the idea but it's fun.

    Since it seems logical to me, I need no faith and without faith a belief is just something one thinks is true.

This discussion has been closed.