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Belief in God

federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
edited October 2014 in General Banter
Given that the thread this sub-thread is taken from, is relatively old, and has been revived, this discussion was created from comments split from: Is there anything against believing in God?.

Please note that most threads older than 6 months old do not bear revival, and it is best to create new discussions.
«13

Comments

  • @cvalue said:
    The main reason I switched from Catholic to Buddhism is I have problems with these ideas about God Creator:
    First, the idea of one single God Creator who creates and runs this entire universe is too simplistic idea. The world is way too complicated for that!
    Second, if there is a God Creator then who created God?
    Third, if there is a caring God like a loving father why God with all his powers would let his children suffer so? Why would he send Jesus, his only son to die for us? If he has all these powers, why would he even bothers to do that?
    Fourth, if we don't believe in God, we will be condemned to an eternal hell. I feel rebellious against this threat!

    I like the idea: In Buddhism, there are only Buddhas (the awaken ones) and there are thousands of Buddhas. There are many different realms and Buddha lands. The universe always exists and evolved and is ruled by Cause and Effect (Karma).

    This looks more realistic to me. Buddhas are not God but they've attained higher levels and are full of compassions when they see the rest of us suffer due to our ignorance. Shakyamuni Buddha can't help us, he can only show us the way.

    If we believe in Amitabha Buddha land and apply for immigration there, he will help but if we don't believe in him, we are not condemned to an eternal hell. We will just go to a different place.

    @shadowleaver said:
    I periodically struggle with this very issue myself. Emotionally, in my heart, I really want there to be a personal God I can have a relationship with. A part of me almost abhors the teachings about non-self, emptyness or that everything is an illusion. That part of me that could be called a soul is highly individualized and craves for a confirmation of its individuality by a supernatural Person.

    But when I get swayed by those emotional leanings, I start studying Christian religion (which rings the most true to me as far as Personal God religions go). And what do I see? Fear of the devil and of hell, a very ugly kind of fear. Self-righteousness, to the point where even believers of other Christian confessions are seen as deluded at best. Insane hangups about sexuality. And, of course, rather unsavoury history and politics.

    In my mind I can't possibly subscribe to that. And so Buddhism, as shaky as I am on some of its teachings, is the only thing that I can kind of fit into my worldview and disposition. It certainly makes more sense to me than anything else and it does teach compassion which satisfies my emotional self partially. But I haven't fully figured out what to do about this heart of mine. It is my main challenge to figure that out, to become emotionally complete and mature. I feel that the real gold is in there but mining it is no easy task to mine it.

    By the way, there's a great movie I saw which, I believe, covers this "God-craving" I'm talking about and the associated psychology pretty well. It's called "The Ledge". It definitely helped me when I was in the midst of an itense struggle with the God question. Rather raw, not happy viewing, though.

    @Hamsaka said:
    I couldn't stomach this eternal, a priori being who demands devotion from it's creations, or measures them against yardsticks that demand they deny or repress powerful instinctual behavior inherent in the design. Really?

    But I do seem to have a default sense of existing in a universe that is as alive as I am, and operates from whatever the step above 'sentience' is (or the set that includes the subset of sentience).

    I admit that a purely mechanistic or dumb materialism is so depressing, existentially, that if I could choose, I wouldn't choose to believe it. We have nice historical examples of what happens to human civilization when reductionism and materialism are imposed upon us.

    The funny thing is, we think we have a choice in the first place. We do; we can choose to believe what isn't true over what is (and here we are, welcome to Buddhism). In the end, choosing what to believe is just playing with yourself (which is fine!! It's normal!! It's natural!!). This is the kind of playing with yourself you can do in public :) In fact, we can play with each other and no one will call the police!

    Check out these videos, and the whole channel, if you have a chance

    http://www.youtube.com/user/wordonfirevideo/videos

    Do not let the collar scare you! This is a truly impressive man, graced with one of the most articulate and profound understanding of theology and philosophy I've ever witnessed

    Bunks
  • Rowan1980Rowan1980 Keeper of the Zoo Asheville, NC Veteran
    edited October 2014

    I'm more of a polytheist and animist myself. I could never get down with monotheism, but your mileage may vary. shrugs I stick to evolution, the Big Bang, cause-and-effect, etc. to describe creation.

  • ToshTosh Veteran

    @Jeffrey, one thing to note is that there are many different concepts of God - though many here will just assume that when we talk about God, we're talking about some magical man who lives in the sky. This might be merely a raft to a deeper understanding.

    A good book that covers this subject is:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/What-Talk-About-When-God/dp/0007556187

    The author is a Pastor called Rob Bell; he's quite a good guy to listen to.

    Another talk - from a priest I like is this one:

    https://www.ted.com/talks/tom_honey_on_god_and_the_tsunami?language=en

    If you listen towards the end of the talk, after he explains his struggle with his faith after the tsunami, he almost starts sounding 'Buddhist' with regards his thoughts about God.

    And then there's Christian Mystics - who definately don't hold the 'magic man in the sky' concept of God; in fact they can describe God in terms that Emptiness could possibly be described as:

    I don't expect you to read the book or watch the links, all I'm doing is explaining that the word 'God' means many different things to different people, and there are concepts of God far deeper than the strawman 'magic man' concept.

  • I am Catholic. Thus I agree with Aquinas, when he infers God is the pure act of to be itself, "ipsum esse subsistens". Though I maintain God is transcendent to His creation - but at the same time Omnipresent, meaning that He continuously sustains the whole of creation: His love of creation is such that He will not withdraw His Presence, which would be the ultimate form of annihilation, not merely imposing death, but ending existence altogether - I find there are many interesting aspects in Buddhism, especially its Zen variety.
    Again, I do not adhere to panentheism, but Zen master Soyen Shaku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyen_Shaku) has some very interesting insights on this matter and concerning God. An occasion to really appreciate subtle analogies and differences between Christianity and Buddhism

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zfa/zfa04.htm

    The following script shows how God is understood in the context of Catholicism

    http://www.scotthahn.com/download/attachment/4835

    I would also suggest the works of Trappist monk, mystic, writer and poet Thomas Merton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton), a seminal figure in interfaith understanding, who devoted a big part of his life to the study of Eastern religions (particularly Zen Buddhism)

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Perhaps God isn't what "we" think God is. Perhaps he doesn't behave the way we think he should behave. So let's just totally dismiss the concept since what may be reality doesn't fit our desired reality.

    Hamsaka
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    Precisely what I intend NOT to do. To not engage with some desired reality.

  • @vinlyn said:
    Perhaps God isn't what "we" think God is. Perhaps he doesn't behave the way we think he should behave. So let's just totally dismiss the concept since what may be reality doesn't fit our desired reality.

    I'm trying to figure out what you are getting to here, vinlyn.
    Is it in line with your comments earlier in the thread addressed to swingisyellow about one including others in statements about one's personal view?
    Or are you taking a poke at the view of those who reject God out of hand with what might be considered closemindedness to the idea of it?
    Is dismissing a concept the same as rejecting it? To reject it seems about the same as accepting it, in that one has to take a side. I can say that I don't accept the concept of God without rejecting it.
    What about just not bothering with it at all, as Hamsaka suggests? Choosing not to spend time thinking about it? Would that be open or closemindedness I wonder?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited October 2014

    @robot said:
    I'm trying to figure out what you are getting to here, vinlyn.

    Is it in line with your comments earlier in the thread addressed to swingisyellow about one including others in statements about one's personal view?
    Or are you taking a poke at the view of those who reject God out of hand with what might be considered closemindedness to the idea of it?
    Is dismissing a concept the same as rejecting it? To reject it seems about the same as accepting it, in that one has to take a side. I can say that I don't accept the concept of God without rejecting it.
    What about just not bothering with it at all, as Hamsaka suggests? Choosing not to spend time thinking about it? Would that be open or closemindedness I wonder?

    Good question, Robot, and I'm not sure there is one answer.

    But one of the criticisms that I have heard from disillusioned Christians (including myself at one time) was that God doesn't answer prayers (and I think I agree), he isn't fair (and I think I agree), and so on and so forth.

    But who that actually KNOWS what God does...if he does exist? Why do so many Christians assume he is a micromanager? In Buddhism we seem to believe what happens in life is up to us. I like that. And maybe that's what life is meant to be...without micromanagement by God. When I was a principal, I didn't micromanage 76 teachers, 3 lesser administrators, 4 guidance counselors, a half-dozen teacher aides, 4 custodians, a dozen cafeteria workers, and 22 school bus drivers. It would have impossible. What I could do was to create an environment where learning could occur. Perhaps that's sort of what God did...if there is a God. Perhaps we should forget about the Bible, or at least the Out-Of-Date Testament.

    Just because God doesn't fit what the Bible says he is (if he is), doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

    Do I know all this? Of course not. Just tossing out another scenario.

    As far as openmindedness versus closedmindedness, eliminating any possibility is certainly closed. Settling on any possibility is also closed. Because none of us KNOWS. But what I see a lot on this forum is the old "Well before I was a Christian, but now I know that was wrong, and now I know that Buddhism is right" scenario. I am reminded of my best friend in high school, John L. He persuaded me to transfer from the Methodist Church to the Catholic Church. He was very persuasive about how wonderful the Catholic Church was. Years later I learned that John had left the Catholic Church and became a Born Again Christian. At some point later I used Facebook to get back in touch with a number of old friends. When I contacted John I learned that not only was he sort of a lay pastor in a Born Again Church, but he immediately began trying to convert me from (gasp) Buddhism to being Born Again...and explaining all the ways he was wrong about Catholicism, but how he now was so right about being Born Again. And I've seen so many scenarios just like that over the years. And, I've met Buddhists who have learned how "wrong" they were and who have converted to Christianity. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. And what is the key to all of this changing of mind? That the "advertisements" for a particular faith -- almost any faith -- don't meet the reality.

    So to me, real openmindedness is saying something along the lines of, "Buddhism seems to fit pretty well, but maybe it's only part of the story. Maybe there are other stories out there that are partly true also."

    But that's just me.

    lobsterrobotToraldrisKundo
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited October 2014

    @Jeffrey‌

    This thread was aimed at Siluon and SimonthePilgram only?

    But since the discussion is on I will attempt an answer too.

    I guess that you are familiar with buddhist cosmology? That the dhamma does not believe in a creator God or gods? It can be found in the brahmajala sutta I think.

    In the Digha Nikaya. The Buddha teaches the path to Brahma. He says that the path to union with the Brahma is a sidetrack on the path to nibbana.

    And in the Great Forty Sutta belief in heeaven and gods is not only right view but it is written that not believing in their existance is wrong view. Hope you get the distinction?

    In the suttanipata love for all beings is described as a heavenly state. The cultivation of the four heavenly states are according to the buddha the path to union with Brahma.

    So according to that the virtues of the Brahma is truly Love and Compassion.

    Nothing of the above is any evidence that it is this way or that. But concretely this is a good base to evaluate the current question of what we know that Buddhism thinks about God/gods

    /Victor

  • @federica said:
    Given that the thread this sub-thread is taken from, is relatively old, and has been revived, this discussion was created from comments split from: Is there anything against believing in God?.

    Please note that most threads older than 6 months old do not bear revival, and it is best to create new discussions.

    If you are pursuing the state of Enlightenment (that Buddha attained) then you would not believe in God in terms of a form that can be worshipped or can give out reward or punishment.
    Enlightenment is the state of infinite consciousness there is no heaven, hell or rebirth.
    God or the Absolute as I prefer is infinite – if the Absolute wasn’t infinite there would be edges or a beginning and an end - therefore could not be eternal.
    As the Absolutes is infinite (an undifferentiated unity) it does not do or want for anything because it is everything, which makes it absurd to think that you can pray to or have a response from the state.
    Attain Enlightenment like the Buddha and you will know the Absolutes truth which cannot be challenged and does not need defending.

    Zenshin
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @BeyondTheAstral said:
    If you are pursuing the state of Enlightenment (that Buddha attained) then you would not believe in God in terms of a form that can be worshipped or can give out reward or punishment.

    Enlightenment is the state of infinite consciousness there is no heaven, hell or rebirth.
    God or the Absolute as I prefer is infinite – if the Absolute wasn’t infinite there would be edges or a beginning and an end - therefore could not be eternal.
    As the Absolutes is infinite (an undifferentiated unity) it does not do or want for anything because it is everything, which makes it absurd to think that you can pray to or have a response from the state.
    Attain Enlightenment like the Buddha and you will know the Absolutes truth which cannot be challenged and does not need defending.

    How you could write that after writing in another thread, "What do we really know?", I don't understand.

  • edited October 2014

    Sorry I don’t understand where you are coming from on this point.

    Knowledge and Wisdom have nothing to with states of consciousness – it is possible to have attained Enlightenment having not seen all the chakras for instance. A truth to consider is the mind does not get Enlightened.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    BTA, how do you REALLY KNOW the following:

    1. "Enlightenment is the state of infinite consciousness there is no heaven, hell or rebirth."

    2. "God or the Absolute as I prefer is infinite – if the Absolute wasn’t infinite there would be edges or a beginning and an end - therefore could not be eternal."

    3. "As the Absolutes is infinite (an undifferentiated unity) it does not do or want for anything because it is everything, which makes it absurd to think that you can pray to or have a response from the state."

    4. "Attain Enlightenment like the Buddha and you will know the Absolutes truth which cannot be challenged and does not need defending."

    Have you personally experienced all that? Because if you haven't, then you don't really know.

    robotTosh
  • @vinlyn said:
    BTA, how do you REALLY KNOW the following:

    1. "Enlightenment is the state of infinite consciousness there is no heaven, hell or rebirth."

    2. "God or the Absolute as I prefer is infinite – if the Absolute wasn’t infinite there would be edges or a beginning and an end - therefore could not be eternal."

    3. "As the Absolutes is infinite (an undifferentiated unity) it does not do or want for anything because it is everything, which makes it absurd to think that you can pray to or have a response from the state."

    4. "Attain Enlightenment like the Buddha and you will know the Absolutes truth which cannot be challenged and does not need defending."

    Have you personally experienced all that? Because if you haven't, then you don't really know.

    Great observations - exactly what I would have said.

    The next statement is where people can call me crazy or full of BS:
    I have attained to the state of Enlightenment and my statements are coming directly from the realizations made on attaining God consciousness

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    We call you neither crazy nor full of BS.
    Unless of course, you ride its coat-tails..... We've had countless members do that so far... So in that specific aspect, you join a merry band of many. ;) .

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @BeyondTheAstral said:
    I have attained to the state of Enlightenment and my statements are coming directly from the realizations made on attaining God consciousness

    To be honest, I doubt you. But that's okay, as it is okay for you to say you have accomplished all of that.

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran
    edited October 2014

    @vinlyn said:
    To be honest, I doubt you. But that's okay, as it is okay for you to say you have accomplished all of that.

    I'll just second this.

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    God is a conceptual name framework and as such - it's what you want it to be, and that is desire!

    This is a teaching for you that desire GOD as your ultimate being:

    De - in many languages means "from"

    Sire - is in reality a form of address which means you are "superior".

    So your desire is to to mean you are seeking to be some thing "from a Superior Realm"
    Well - you are (bless you) - and you are not. But don't let that tie you up i such a knot that you know not what you really are!

    Meditate on this the knower and the known are the same - the thinker and the thought are the same!

    The mess you get yourself into when you become one or the other without knowing one is the other and vice versa - is an insoluble problem - it's called dukkha! and as Anatman you will know and understand this, and impermanence reveals it all period.

    That's just my view btw!

  • You forget you are from that. When you answer it is by way of that.
    We are the feedback for that. We can change the future. We can answer payers.

  • Well the response was kinder than I anticipated!
    There was an “I doubt it” comment, how do you draw such a conclusion? Where are the rules (and who made them) that say you can’t attain to the state of Enlightenment.

    You can get a better picture from my bio if you choose to read it,
    http://lightandsoundmeditation.com/about.html

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    @BeyondTheAstral said:
    Well the response was kinder than I anticipated!
    There was an “I doubt it” comment, how do you draw such a conclusion? Where are the rules (and who made them) that say you can’t attain to the state of Enlightenment.

    You can get a better picture from my bio if you choose to read it,
    http://lightandsoundmeditation.com/about.html

    Read it.

    What do you have to say that is knew?

  • ToshTosh Veteran

    @BeyondTheAstral said:
    Well the response was kinder than I anticipated!
    There was an “I doubt it” comment, how do you draw such a conclusion? Where are the rules (and who made them) that say you can’t attain to the state of Enlightenment.

    You can get a better picture from my bio if you choose to read it,
    http://lightandsoundmeditation.com/about.html

    I sense a lot of ego around your on-line persona; that's what makes me think you're not enlightened.

    Why the ego? Why read my bio - which is written in the 3rd person (something I've read that people suffering with megalomania do)? Why the fancy 'BeyondTheAstal' name? I just use the one people call me.

    I doubt it too. Sorry. Maybe you really believe you are, maybe you are, or maybe you suffer with mental health problems. I don't know. If you are, I'm happy for you. If you're not, I hope it doesn't cause you any problems.

    Toraldrisanatamanvinlyn
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    don't feel let down by these comments btw

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran
    edited October 2014

    An enlightened being wouldn't care to make others believe they were enlightened. They wouldn't be offended in any way if they were doubted, because there's no ego to bruise (or with anything to prove). Ego-speak is very identifiable, because it's what we unenlightened folk are about most of the time! ;)  

    It would only be for the purpose of teaching people, helping them, that they'd point to themselves as examples of non-suffering. Not as an attainment or badge of honor... It takes much less time to reveal non-enlightenment than true enlightenment, because a good con artist can fool themselves and others for years while most people who make the claim are not good con artists.

    vinlyn
  • My attitude and approach to the idea of God, and Christianity in particular, has changed a great deal over the years; and while I still see myself as primarily a Buddhist, I've been going to a local Catholic Church for a couple of months now.

    Outstanding post.

    For some it is impossible or difficult to find any value in the Abrahamic traditions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). Others have no interest or concern for God, gods or ethereal entities.

    OK. Fine.

    Buddhism does not start from such things, though they appear in some dharma.

    Primarily a Buddhist and yet have seen beyond the superficial mask of non mystical Christianity. Great.

    The mystic teachings are there in the Abrahamic religions and they are profound. I find Buddhism can throw light on the essentials as I find it provides the best and fastest tools to knowing.

    However . . . the Abrahamic traditions provide heart, family and community to a greater degree than much Buddhism, which is sometimes a little clinical and head based.

    'God is Greater', as I keep reminding Her.

    ToshVastmindrobotKundo
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    a little too enigmatic @lobster - but that's your perspective!

  • The Bio was to provide where I am coming from and the state that has been attained – not in any way shape or form to say “look how cool I am”
    I don’t really know what Buddhists mean by Enlightenment - is there anybody who is Enlightened that can stand up and testify to the state?
    If there isn’t anybody that can do this – don’t you think it is time to question?

    As stated Enlightenment is nothing to do with the mind/personality how I present myself is nothing to do with the state.
    FYI I am just an ordinary person that has been given the energy to enable the realization to be made.

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    @BeyondTheAstral‌ Digging a ditch.

  • When I first saw the light my reaction was. This should hurt my eyes. Then everything was perfectly clear in the light. The light was out side or inbetween everything.
    This experience was given to me by my master Guru.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2014

    Heart Sutra:

    ::snip::
    No suffering no origin of suffering no release from suffering no path and no attainment.

    Thus have I heard
    Once the Blessed One was dwelling in Rajagrha at Vulture Peak mountain, together with a great gathering of the sangha of monks and a great gathering of the sangha of bodhisattvas. At that time the Blessed One entered the samadhi that expresses the dharma called profound illumination, and at the same time noble Avalokitesvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, while practicing the profound prajnaparamita, saw in this way: he saw the five skandhas to be empty of nature.

    Then, through the power of the Buddha, venerable Sariputra said to noble Avalokitesvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, "How should a son or daughter of noble family train, who wishes the practice the profound prajnaparamita?"

    Addressed in this way, noble Avalokitesvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva said to venerable Sariputra, "O, Sariputra, a son or daughter of noble family who wishes to practice the profound prajnaparamita should see in this way: seeing the five skandhas to be empty of nature. Form is emptiness; emptiness also is form. Emptiness is no other than form; form is no other than emptiness. In the same way, feeling, perception, formation, and consciousness are emptiness. Thus, Sariputra, all dharmas are emptiness. There are no characteristics. There is no birth and no cessation. There is no impurity and no purity. There is no decrease and no increase. Therefore, Sariputra, in emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no formation, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no appearance, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no dharmas; no eye dhatu up to no mind dhatu, no dhatu of dharmas, no mind consciousness dhatu; no ignorance, no end of ignorance up to no old age and death, no end of old age and death; no suffering, no origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path, no wisdom, no attainment, and no nonattainment. Therefore, Sariputra, since the bodhisattvas have no attainment, they abide by means of prajnaparamita. Since there is no obscuration of mind, there is no fear. They transcend falsity and attain complete nirvana. All the buddhas of the three times, by means of prajnaparamita, fully awaken to unsurpassable, true, complete enlightenment. Therefore, the great mantra of prajnaparamita, the mantra of great insight, the unsurpassed mantra, the unequaled mantra, the mantra that calms all suffering, should be known as truth, since there is no deception. The prajnaparamita mantra is said in this way:

    OM GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA

    Thus, Sariputra, the bodhisattva mahasattva should train in the profound prajnaparamita."

    Then the Blessed One arose from that samadhi and praised noble Avalokitesvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, saying, "Good, good, O son of noble family; thus it is, O son of noble family, thus it is. One should practice the profound prajnaparamita just as you have taught and all the tathagatas will rejoice."

    When the Blessed One has said this, venerable Sariputra and noble Avalokitesvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, that whole assembly and the world with its gods, humans, asuras, and gandharvas rejoiced and praised the words of the Blessed One.

    lobsterBuddhadragonRowan1980
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    @BeyondTheAstral‌ the form is such that you cannot go to a discussion forum and say I am enlightened - not saying you are, but then immediate react of the community will be that as a particular person with no references, doubt of your understanding will be questioned. Indeed, there is an intellectual understanding of what you ' know' and what you 'profess', however, every person who comes to this site will doubt you, even with your credentials, as you have not been accepted into the family!

    Just demonstrate your wisdom mind! There are plenty of people here who do demonstrate it, but subtlety is a necessary requirement.

    JeffreyrobotpersonKundo
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited October 2014

    HI....nice to meet you .. :) ....

    Me personally....I'll wait till I know you better before I start to share my attainments/wisdom and my enlightenment opinion on things....hahahaha...See you around........

    anataman
  • Yes nice to meet you.

    Vastmind
  • My first thought? That boy has been eating too many mushrooms!
    Which is cool. Been there myself.
    How much will it cost for my personal mantra @BeyondTheAstral‌? Looks like you are in the enlightenment business to me.

    VastmindToshvinlyn
  • ToshTosh Veteran

    @robot said:
    How much will it cost for my personal mantra BeyondTheAstral‌? Looks like you are in the enlightenment business to me.

    I thought that too.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @Toraldris said:
    BeyondTheAstral‌ Digging a ditch.

    Yes, I quite agree.

    Look, in my life I have talked to Christians who have told me they talk to God and hear him answer (yes, in an actual voice). I doubt them.

    I have talked to a Buddhist who supposedly watched a respected abbot disappear into thin air. I doubt him.

    I have talked with people who have seen ghosts. I doubt them.

    I have talked to people who have done things psychics have told them to do. I doubt the wisdom.

    I have heard the story of Joseph Smith and the Angel Moroni. And I doubt it.

    I have heard the story of Jesus feeding the multitude with a few loaves of bread and a few fish. And I doubt it.

    Any one, or several, or all of these things may have happened. But there is simply no evidence to support it. Just saying it's so doesn't make it so.

    Rowan1980
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    I researched myself, because that's what buddhists should do - and I have come to doubt I really exist as I imagine I should imagine myself to be!

    But this does not support either your argument @Vinlyn or @BeyondTheAstral - it serves to outline one thing - our interdependence is necessary and your doubt and all the facts you state and @BeyondTheAstral's statements and BLOG etc serve one purpose in my life - you are both, and all those people mentioned and unmentioned, are necessary for me to exist - cheers!

    I'm going to bed!

    Good night,
    sleep well,
    and don't as your drifting off
    upon your life dwell!

    Anataman!

  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    This thread certainly derailed from "Belief in God"!

    JeffreyChaz
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    edited October 2014

    The claim to enlightenment does that . . .

    It does no one any good, when you get down and examine it courageously. It might 'sell product', briefly. By product I also mean ideas and concepts.

    I'm only familiar with the Theravadin monks who gently refuse to disclose (if any) personal attainments. It's a very conservative stance, but that's Theravada for you. As big a drama whore as the generic ego is, a conservative approach to disclosing personal attainment ain't a bad idea.

    I've only known folks here for a year or so, but visit at least once daily, sometimes for a minute or less. I've gotten to know several members well enough to believe their money and their mouths are in approximately the same place. If Lobster confessed to me he's in the seamless state of the Deathless or the Unborn I'd say NO SHIT, really??? Which one of your cushions were you sitting on?? ahem, I'd worry his NewBuddhist.com account had been hijacked. If it really were him though, I 'know' him well enough to know he went off his meds. In plain speech, he just wouldn't DO that (too enlightened).

    Shoshin
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    BeyondTheAstral -- do you consider Buddhism to be religion?

  • I guess there is nobody who can stand up and say they have attained to the state of Enlightenment. I am not in this to make any money just guide those who are sincerely seeking the truth - we deliver the goods period

  • @BeyondTheAstral said:
    I guess there is nobody who can stand up and say they have attained to the state of Enlightenment. I am not in this to make any money just guide those who are sincerely seeking the truth - we deliver the goods period

    So the service you offer on your website is at no cost? That's great. Not for me though.

  • We are all sincerely seeking the truth. The Truth delivers the fruit. At each level it seems like "the break through" That is because it is. There is always more until you are there.
    For me his discovery of the middle way was a great gift. I would have thought the direction of the Gods was the way. It is a way but not to the goal. There are many wondrous things in the world more than enough to make the Ego happy. They are also true in there own right. The Gods are not all powerful. They have there place. Without them we would not know of heaven. Even if it is only the future.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited October 2014

    One thing that "I" know for sure is that the unruly mind can play some elaborate tricks on the unexpected... It's fooled me on more than one occasion . :D ..

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2014

    @Greg911 said:
    We are all sincerely seeking the truth.

    >

    I'm not. The only thing I seek is the origin of Suffering and its cessation. Everything else is a bonus.

    BuddhadragonRowan1980Toraldris
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran
    edited October 2014

    The more I tread, the clearer it seems to me that it is not God that created Man, but Man that created God.
    And some people simply can't let go of the balloon and stand on their own two feet by themselves.
    Man needs God. God does not need Man.

    Rowan1980
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited October 2014

    I am assuming that by "God" we mean the Biblical character.

    I do think Jesus realized his true nature but I don't think even he believed in Abrahams notion of God.

  • @BeyondTheAstral said:

    "I have attained to the state of Enlightenment and my statements are coming directly from the realizations made on attaining God consciousness."

    "I don’t really know what Buddhists mean by Enlightenment - is there anybody who is Enlightened that can stand up and testify to the state? "

    And a website making knowledge claims? I don't get it.

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