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How open-ended is Buddhism?
Sunspot5254
Explorer
I was thinking on another question and I thought about asking for people's input on here. But I didn't because I kinda thought I would get the same answer I usually get, "It's up to the person and what works for them". How do you feel about this open-endedness? Do you think the results are all the same regardless of the method? Do you think there are ANY specific no-no's in Buddhism besides murder and rape?
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Comments
Your questions seem a bit misconceived, but I do think that's because you haven't boned up on Buddha and Buddhism as much as you could, but I know you will, eventually.
As usual, I will honk my horn about the book Old Path White Clouds - because without being immersed in the scholarly (which I am not yet ready for - all the foreign names at this stage of the game, gives me the willies), it gives a fantastic view of how and why Buddha thought some of the things he did, and how the precepts etc. came about - they were all based on things that happened in real life.
Buddha specifically did not want anyone to feel they should be led around by the nose or be a yes-man or yes-woman but encouraged a very healthy independent thinking style of living. As imperfectly worded as this may be, those are my thoughts about your questions.
I won't respond until I'm absolutely sure I understand what you mean by "Open-Ended"....
The OP is a dichotomous view of the world
To be completely Open stands in direct opposition to the word Ended (which is complete closure). So the answer is simply that buddhism is neither Open nor Ended - it's the middle way!
So choose your words carefully! Otherwise you are just standing still and moving at the same time...
...\lol/...
I meant open-ended as "able to choose whatever they like but still be a Buddhist"
I think being open minded is good. It's up to you to decide what is right and wrong, but hopefully you already have the karma where you are not trying to hurt others. If you are trying to hurt others or other egoic stuff then even if you study Buddhism it will be like you don't see it. Indeed morality (doing the right thing) is part of the 8 fold path. The difference is that you think for yourself what is right or wrong.
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I thought I knew what you were getting at, but now I'm not so sure. Could you give a couple of examples of what you mean?
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Oooh! no! I don't think Buddhism is Open-ended at all!
I have mentioned before that in my personal opinion, Buddhism is much, much harder to follow that a Theistic religion.
I will choose Catholicism to speak about, as that is the Religion I was originally born into.
See, In Catholicism, we are taught to pray, and surrender everything to God's Will.
So, in essence, we take everything within, and put it all "out there"...
In Buddhism, the Buck Stops Here. WE are responsible for everything we think, say and do.
The Eightfold Path is a series of 8 Factors which give us guidance on how to live our daily lives.
The precepts (usually we. as laypeople, focus principally on the first 5) are there as points of direction, which recommend we follow certain behaviours in order to effect positive results.
But who punishes who, if we mess up?
We do.
And boy, I think, myself, I feel a whole lot worse about myself if I mess up, than I ever did when I followed Catholicism.
I
get very disappointed in myself.
If you 'choose whatever you like" do you always feel great about your choice?
If you're not happy with your choice, can you just shrug it off?
It's hard doing Right Everything" when you're intent on following a Buddhist calling.
So did I!
If you want to be a smiling compassionate appearing golden buddhist statue and thats your view of what a buddhist should be, then that's a wrong view. Seeing buddhists as humans who are awakened or who can be awakened is something else!
I can't see what difference it makes if you or others do or do not say you are a Buddhist. The important thing is your practice rather than a label. Probably a sangha will have expectations on behavior but I doubt any kick people out unless that person kicked out was very inappropriate.
It is my opinion @Jeffrey, that once you have understood buddhism, morality follows. But without naming names on this site, that view has been negated by some. I stand by my notion that when you get it right, you are right and morality with regards to fellow human beings follows without hinderance...
@anataman I didn't mean the label so much, more that if I'm trying to figure this out (as I'm super new) it would be helpful to have a general layout of what it is that I'm trying to do. This is probably just me thinking about it too much. Also, if I don't try my best to always say and do the right thing, how can I ever hope that the reactions will come naturally? Sometimes I will stop myself in a situation and say what I know would be the right thing to say even if I don't believe it. I then go home and think about what happened and figure out why that was the right thing to say. I may be a fake smiling wanna-be so to say, but at least I made someone else feel good. Or am I wrong? I probably am lol
@Federica that actually helped quite a bit. But what if you don't find something wrong that is actually wrong? How would you even know to feel bad about it? Or care?
@silver kinda like hunting, vegetarianism, drinking, meditation, etc. Things that I've personally read on here that seem to be optional but sometimes are said not to be optional.
I hate to say this, but it's never happened that way.
The Action has to be volitional for negative kamma to be activated, if you like.
An accidental wrong, isn't a wrong. It may result inappropriately, or unskilfully, but you have to KNOW what you're doing, to be able to evaluate it.... surely?
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No, not optional. They're not optional as in 'take it or leave it'.
They're optional as in, "By all means do it, but accept the consequences".
In order, (hunting) taking another sentient creature's life, and (drinking) deliberately imbibing a product which leads to confusion and clouding of the mind.
you know these things happen as a consequence.
What skilful choice will you make, based on this knowledge?
Your life is your path @Sunspot5254; mine continues to be one of meandering, wandering and wondering, but always I am aware I am experiencing it.
Sometimes I feel in control, and at other times I feel I'm not - my daughter was choking on a sweet the other day whilst I was trying to take a photograph of her and her friends having fun at her birthday party. It was only when I withdrew from the camera, I saw the fear and understood the horror she had just gone through, and all I wanted was to capture the pleasant experience we were giving her.
Sometimes viewing life through a lens distorts the view - and viewing buddhism as a religion leading to Nirvana can distort the view.
It's a balancing act!
Perhaps you might think of it like this:
Strolling along through life, not realising we are born awake, we start as your average Goofy.
Through a strange series of fortuitous events we come across the Middle Way (or similar).
We become Micky Mouse Buddhists, convinced we are on our way to Disneyland Nirvana.
We start to realize we are a comic creation, that our characteristics are drawn from a Fantasia.
Now we begin to focus on what animates us both good and bad.
Our inane jollity and crazy capers become nothing more than a play of light and entertainment.
Now what?
We try to understand what real behaviour, real morality, real change can and does mean. The path narrows, we implement Śīla, discipline, 8 fold path type behaviour. Our life goes on but we have a widening understanding . . .
Like all of us (yeah all of us), we're reaching out and searching around in the dark...
All is allowed.....you have your own life to lead, you decide if an occasional drink at a special time (toasting a wedding or a birth or Christmas/New Year) it's all up to you, but there IS no angry god glowering down on you and devil just waiting for you to slip up.
I think when you understand what Buddha was all about, you'll know there is NO ONE to judge you - it's just you making educated, conscientious decisions in your own life and helping others to the extent you are capable of.
@Lobster I think I know what you mean.
@anataman I hope your daughter was okay!
For something to be 'Buddhist', I think it has to be in accordance with the Four Seals of Buddhism.
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Four_seals
According to Gelug Buddhism, anyway.
Buddhadharma has often been compared to a medicine and the Buddha to a doctor, so how open-ended is Buddhism, @Sunspot5254?
It depends on how open-ended you want the effect of the medicine to be.
Buddhism rests on three pillars: wisdom, morality and meditation, and not precisely in that order.
Or in the words of the Dhammapada:
You can't overlook one pillar without threatening the delicate balance of the whole.
It's not about anyone pointing the finger at you, nor feeling guilty over every unskillful decision you make, nor smirking your way through life.
You can do whatever you want of your life, but you have to assume responsibility for those decisions.
That's all.
@Tosh, some Buddhist schools say that only conditioned phenomena are impermanent. But non-conditioned phenomena neither come or go and they are ungraspable in space even. So the Bodhicitta is: self, satisfying, and 'eternal'. But I find it harder to understand 'Bodhicitta' than I do understand 'craving'.
For me, Buddhism doesn't dictate rules for behavior or preferences. It's about seeing the skillful versus nonskillful. It's not that 'anything goes' in Buddhism. It's that unskillful things don't make sense to do if your goal is the cessation of suffering.
It seems stupid and impossible to murder another person, or even a cow, if you deeply cherish and respect their life. This holds true for much less dramatic things, like what you say in response to a question. If you have compassion, insulting someone seems abhorrent. Getting drunk creates more problems than it is worth. Stealing, the same. There's always some intelligent reasons behind what appear to be 'shoulds', which defeats the purpose of a 'should' in the first place. I don't steal from the neighbors but not because I'd be a bad Buddhist if I did.
Do i know you Guys?
i feel so
THANKS OP and for the WISE responses
we can learn lots because the day is still young
thanks again friends / relatives (*)
Not if the method involves anything "wrong" so to speak. Like wrong view for example. If one does not understand the proper method then one might think they are practicing the proper method but end up practicing it wrong, thus not practicing the method to begin with. Practicing the method properly or improperly surely results in a different outcome.
Yes. If you are a layperson, the layperson's precepts. If you are a monk, the monk's precepts. But, if you are not that interested in making progress, then I would say you might be able to break them sometimes, maybe, and you might be ok. If you are interested in making progress, I would say it's best to consider them as hard rules, never to be broken, within reason of course. Breaking them makes bad karma. Making bad karma is bad, so it would make sense to not make bad karma.
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I'm sorry, you don't seem to get it.
Karma doesn't forgive, because it doesn't judge in the first place.
Karma is just a process. The word Karma simply means, in translation, "Action".
It has to be wilful, it has to be pre-determined and deliberate.
But the judgement comes form YOU, not Karma.
A good way of understanding this is to consider the following.
"Karma is not being punished FOR your 'sins'. It's being 'Punished' BY them...."
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Have you considered going back to the store and making a charitable donation, or writing them a letter of apology and enclosing some money?
If you know you screwed up, do something - anything - to 'make up for it', but don't forever be smacking yourself over the head with a cast-iron skillet because of it.
You did what you did to feed your child.
Now do something to make amends. Even a gesture will help.
Or help someone else who's low on groceries.
If you ever find yourself in a queue at the checkout, and the person behind you is counting their pennies to be able to afford a loaf of bread, if you can, pay for their bread. That kind of thing....
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This situation is likely to be as rare as Rocking-horse manure.
However, I seem to vaguely recall a fellow Buddhist (I can't remember if it was on this site, or another) was actually put in this position in his own home, and he ended up shooting an intruder fatally.
This is something he will have to live with for the remainder of his life.
Killing involves some kind of consequence.
With regard to Kamma, (Volitional deliberate Action) it all counts, and you don't get away with anything.
But the remedy, is up to you.
(Kamma = Pali. Karma = Sanskrit).
And I really am trying to get it.
I know you are, darling....
Kamma begins as a seed of action the instant you think of behaving in a particular way. The seed is sown, in the thought.
It's in the Dhammapada, which is a series of verses, said to represent the entire Life-teachings of the Buddha, condensed into several sections, or chapters.
The very first two verses, of the very first chapter ('Pairs') states how Kamma works.
ruled by the heart,
made of the heart.
If you speak or act
with a corrupted heart,
then suffering follows you —
as the wheel of the cart,
the track of the ox
that pulls it.
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ruled by the heart,
made of the heart.
If you speak or act
with a calm, bright heart,
then happiness follows you,
like a shadow
that never leaves.
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Your heart's desires are expressed first and foremost in your Mind. The heart-desire is born in your thinking....
The CONSEQUENCE to Karma/Kamma, is Vipaka.
Action - Consequence
Cause - Effect.
Mine says....
Experience is preceded by the mind
Led by the mind
Ruled by the mind
Or something of that sort. I am at work and don't have it on me.
I just see how they could be translated so differently. Is my copy a bad one?
For some the heart and mind are the same, and to some extent they are...
TB - let it be!
@Sunspot5254, tell me....
... When you are animated in discussion, and you say you believe something emphatically; when you say, "Well, let me tell you what I think...!"
Do you point to your chest, or to your head?
I would have done the same thing and to hell with some thing called 'karma'.
"Karma" isn't a THING or a floating judge out there keeping score so that you can get a pay back someday.
An example of karma would be you getting caught stealing and the consequences of shoplifting. They are rather immediate. Another example of karma is you feeling regret NOW for stealing, which you understand to be deeply wrong. So karma is both outside and inside experiences.
If you hadn't done what was necessary to feed your baby, and your baby suffered bodily damage, THAT would be the karma for NOT providing for your baby. Karma isn't personal, it is simply consequences that happen to anyone and everyone who take action.
There is no 'being' or 'force' outside of us. All this what appears to be out there, like a god, is a misapprehension, a 'projection'. Inside you is where the 'judge' resides. The judge is YOU.
I'm sorry you were in such a situation
In this day and age no infant alive should suffer for lack of food. There is PLENTY of food and then some. I'm glad you weren't 'caught', too. You still suffer the karma from the inside, though, but now you can put that to rest when you regard your healthy child. THAT is the karma for 'stealing' formula -- your well developed child.
'Mano' is the mental sense organ.
'Manas' is the deliberate, willed thinking.
In Buddhism heart and mind are the same (called Citta), but we have intuitions pointing to our true nature within the language we use. This is the topic of first work book (of four) by my Lama as an introduction to Buddhism. The heart language we use has intuition that starts from day one and goes all the way to the end of the path. Even if you understand heart as a muscle or cookie shape that can still be a starting point.
The Dhammapada: the Buddha's path of wisdom translated by Acharya Buddharakkhita is the best translation. Mind precedes all mental states.
I wouldn't dream of pointing, it's very rude...