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How Many Of You Have Had Dharma "Experiences" You Can Not Put Into Words ?
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
How Many Of You Have Had Dharma "Experiences" You Can Not Put Into Words ? In other words( excuse the pun) you find it difficult to eff the ineffable ?
Oh I just realised, it's quite possible nobody with such an experience will be able to respond to the question ...Oh Bugger 
(BTW Bugger is a slang word. The term is a general-purpose expletive, used to imply dissatisfaction )
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Yes. I have tried with horrible analogies,
but that is about it. And those fail miserably. But even trying to explain them to someone else who has experienced it, you don't have to go far before they know exactly what you mean even though you don't have the words to really explain it.
I haven't had any 'far out' experiences.
Can anyone give an example that might be familiar with the general public? Like OOBE or NDE?
@karasti yes I guess that's true and an example when trying to describe such an experience would be to say such things as "Only those who have "experienced" anatta will "know" what I mean"
Another thing that often occurs is 'disbelief' by others of one's experience because the so called experiencer can't put into words their experiential knowledge ...At times I am (to an extent) also guilty of this disbelief...
Ah, what is a "Dhamma experience"?
I never had a Dhamma experience.
Well, there are different levels of this.
For example, when a child asks a question that an adult doesn't want to answer, the adult may say, "You wouldn't understand" or "You'll understand when you're older". In reality, the adult is saying, I don't want to explain it at your level, it's too much bother.
The first year I was in Thailand I nearly fell off Wat Arun's chedi, which would have resulted in at least severe injuries or possibly even death. No, I can't fully explain every sensation that I felt as it was happening, but I can explain much of what I felt; enough to get you to understand the basic emotions I was feeling. And if I can't, either I have a very poor command of the language, or I'm too lazy to really explain.
And if someone cannot offer any explanation at all, why bring the topic up to begin with? To show some sense of superiority -- oh look at me, I'm so wise only I can understand what I'm thinking. Poppycock.
good question. i think it would be to understand a dhamma teaching or many things. meditation would be a dhamma experience?
Hi @vinlyn - there are many photos of chedis or stupas, and I wondered what exactly it is and what it looked like - it's a bit confusing as to what it is and why you were on it.
An experience that relates to ones Dharma practice (meditative experiences or just an ongoing sense of knowing that is a 'truth' beyond conventional/mundane truths that we so often cling to...
The ultimate music playing in the background that one has come to tune into every now and again when interacting in the conventional world ...
That's basically what I mean @vinlyn , @karasti seems to 'understand what was meant without too much difficulty... ie not attempting to make a mountain out of a simple mole hill
When it comes to what "Dharma" means it's a free for all "Different stroke for different folks" I guess
I hope this as clarified and not confused the issue even more...(But I won't hold my breath
)
Wat arun is "The Temple Of The Dawn" and is on the opposite shore of the Chao Phrya River from Bangkok. It's one of the main sights in the Bangkok vicinity. There were so many injuries due to the extremely steep and narrow steps, that it is now closed off to the public. But back then you could climb up 2 (or was it 3) levels. The attached is not my photo, but you can clearly see the steps.
Hmmm...that didn't work. https://www.google.com/search?q=wat+arun&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=VMtbVciPFYeYyASnsIDgCA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1846&bih=985#imgrc=S8Xkurg-bD56fM%3A;OZaMdKYc2fbLCM;http%3A%2F%2Fthelongestwayhome.zenfolio.com%2Fimg%2Fv19%2Fp301380440-5.jpg;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelongestwayhome.com%2Fblog%2Ftravel-thailand%2Fvisiting-wat-arun-in-bangkok-thailand%2F;1100;733
I remember visiting the temple back in the early 1980s....
Everything we experience is through the 5 khandhas and the 6 sense faculties, so all experiences are conditioned, not unconditioned.
Wow, how far up on that thing were you? Was it really originally built to climb up or was it supposed to be just the design? Not that that would stop dummies from using it for stairs, sorry!
I guess it's like describing what it's like to swim. Those who swim can relate to key words but those who haven't can only try understand. So I'd say we need space to allow people to try describe experiences but not prematurely jumping to conclusions. Words are fairly limiting in this realm. !
Yes, I have but I can't tell you about it..........
In all seriousness, I remember when the concept of emptiness finally sank in after reading "Seeing Yourself as You Really Are" a couple of times.
I was sitting on the train and had such an overwhelming feeling of joy I burst out laughing and had this huge grin on my face......the people around me stared at me like I was a nut case!
When you're a child you experience certain emotions but you don't have the words to describe what you experience. People around you are familiar with those feelings and can recognize them in you and are able to put a label to your experience.
Deep meditation experiences are similar. An experienced teacher or practitioner can explain to you what has occurred so you're not running around misinterpreting your experience or trying to sort through and decide from textual descriptions.
I think many years ago I had a few meditations where I entered into jhana, that's it, my practice is pretty mundane.
At the first level you're about a quarter of the way up, and you can walk around it. Then you go up higher (via extremely steep and narrow steps) to a total of about a third of the way up, and again you can walk around it at that point.
The funny thing that happened one year at the same temple was that instead arriving by ferry (which most people do from the Bangkok side), I was already on the other side of the river, so I walked in through one of the small street entrances. There was a Thai guy there with a sign: "Guided Tour" in English. I'd been there before several times, but I thought a tour might lead to some new insights. As I recall, it was 25 baht (about $1 at that time). So I handed the guy (who was essentially a beggar) the money and we began walking, within a few steps I realized he was MUTE! He would walk along and point to various things and grunt. Walk further and point something out while grunting. It was a hoot, so he got a nice tip.
S
Like when we try to describe just seeing without added baggage and we say something like "the labels fell away"
If we've had glimpses into that state we immediately know what is meant but if we have not we could be left with half formed images.
At the time @robot, you were free to go as high as the steps took one, and it was a great place to look across the river and see Bangkok.
It was built after the Burmese destroyed the old capital of Ayutthaya (upriver), and Thonburi became the new capital. Later yet, after King Taksin I was executed, Rama I moved the capital across the river to what became Bangkok.
Monumental chedis in Thailand typically hold some supposed Buddha relic, although to be honest, I don't know about this one. It is considered noteworth, too, because its exterior (as your pic shows) is encrusted with pieces of Chinese porcelain.
I think I was able to climb two levels. As you said the stairs are intimidating. I met an Englishwoman who was terrified to descend them. Two days later she wandered into the cafe I was eating at in Chiang Mai. Weird.
The stupa they are building at Wat Tham Suea is almost as impressive as at Wat Arun.
You better come over soon to see it. I'll meet you there.
Well it looks like the 'conversation' going on between @vinlyn & @robot is definitely not short on words and whether or not it is a well worded "Dharma Experience" I'll leave up to them
Exactly so.
The unconditioned is not experienced, knowable or worded.
and now back to the experienced ...
Buddha said that the self is not the skhandas which includes consciousness skhanda aka 6 senses. But he did not say there is absolutely no self. The skhandas are mistaken ideas.
Sorry about that. I get excited about Thailand. I miss it.
I don't have anything meaningful to say about your OP.
@bookworm
I guess one could say that these ' non experiences' are beyond the grasp of the 'normal' doors of perception hence why when trying to explain it, one more often than not ends up contradicting oneself...Words get in the way....
Lau Tzu was meant to have said something along the lines of "Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know."
Quite.
@Shoshin
I think all Dharmic experiences can be expressed in words.
Unfortunately, the hearing or reading of something, compared to actually experiencing it,
is like comparing a still shot, to a movie.
Spaciousness, timelessness, oneness, and other words ending in ness.
Boringness, Loch Ness ...
@silver - Can anyone give an example that might be familiar with the general public? Like OOBE or NDE?
OOBE meaning out of body experience?
I have experienced this several times.
@federica had kindly started a new thread "new experience" sometime in April 2015.
@Shoshin - last week, while doing standing meditation...
I do not know how long i was standing from the start of my meditation..
I felt gentle vibrations in my (both) palms.
The vibrations spread (slowly) upward to my shoulders... then my back.. my chest.. my legs..
It was gentle, soft, comfortable.
(The above description of the vibrations... I experience this most times when I do standing mediation.)
From here on, its new to me, for the first time...
As I continued, I felt a hot, burning sensation at the soles of my feet. As though I was standing on burning charcoal. Yet, not a "painful burning" sensation, but hot, very hot...
In the midst of knowing and sensing the vibrations of my whole body and the "burning soles", I continued to breathe slowly...
Then, my body became luminous. Not transparent but almost see through yet not. Hmmm like a frosted glass bottle. And growing, in size. Not like someone pulling me from the top. I was growing bigger, taller... proportionately. Slow. Very slowly. And I was holding a lotus petal with my left thumb and index finger. I grew until my head was with the clouds.
I don't remember about my breathing at this point.
Everything becomes nothing
Nothing exists
Only me, my vibrations and this infinite space
Greatest degree of silence
Quiet Tranquility (I can't describe the immensity of it)
Quiet Joy
Quiet Pleasure
I am recalling and writing this and I am taking a long time doing it.
I'm trying to say it as it had happened.
My words pale in comparison with my experience.
Namaste
Zenni
Quite the contrary.
Really? Sounds interesting, did it feel like a sunburst of joy? Like the feeling of joy couldn't help but make you wonder if there was like a of sphere of energy in your chest, or like a sun?
I've had two experiences in particular but as I say in general my sittings are just ordinary as usual in my life. One of the two experiences: my head was glowing with pleasure and I sat maybe a half hour like that and then my mom came down the stairs; she had gotten up in the morning. My good mood was infectious for awhile and I still felt good but eventually my mom remembered that her dad died very recently and the sadness replaced the good feeling in my head and then that feeling was just gone.
The second experience wasn't as pleasurable but I had no resistance pushing against meditation. There was no feeling of exertion to keep meditating and it was effortless. I meditated 2 hours and then later in the day another 3 hours. Eventually on my third sitting (trying to keep the good feeling) it was actually uncomfortable rather than effortless.
I honestly can't remember the exact details but it was just like a weight lifting off my shoulders and I just felt totally happy.
I have read Tibetan monks say that this is normal. People often get great feelings of joy or fear when they realise emptiness. The feeling settles down and goes away of course.
That's awesome, I know that feeling, and I felt a great joy as well once, it happened to me after I read and contemplated the anatta lakkhana sutta when I read it for the first time.
I have had some. They might all be illusions.
I think Dharma as a teaching can be transmitted and shared for people to walk the path by themselves as they see fit... as long as it is conducive to the cessation of their suffering.
How we live those teachings, how they translate into blissful Dharma experiences, that's very personal and impossible to transmit.
And the more we talk about it, the more banal they appear to the person we attempt to describe them to.
Some experiences are not meant to be put into words.