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There are no Chiquita Bananas. There are no Chiquita Bananas
Chiquita Bananas arise, Chiquita Bananas subside.
Chiquita Bananas are similar, Chiquita Bananas are different.
Chiquita Bananas are not unified; Chiquita Bananas are not dualistic,
Nagarjuna Chiquita.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited May 2015
Yes, if we accept it all as is, that includes impermanence.
"The ultimate Truth is beyond words. Doctrines are words. They're not the Way. The Way is wordless. Words are illusions. They're no different from things that appear in your dreams at night, be they palaces or carriages, forested parks or lakeside pavilions. Don't conceive any delight for such things. They're all cradles of rebirth."
This is from "The Zen teachings of Bodhidharma." Red Pine's translation. Nuff said IMO.
I'm thankful that the likes of Bodhidharma ignored his own advice and gave us his words.
@jeffery - I love the tao te ching.
My first favourite verse: 79
I started "working and growing" from this verse.
Simple yet profound.
The same can be said the other way round.
Failure is an opportunity.
If you blame someone else,
there is no end to the blame.
Therefore the Master
fulfills her own obligations
and corrects her own mistakes.
She does what she needs to do
and demands nothing of others.
Actually Tao Te Ching was the first (or a main) influence of eastern thought for me when I was in highschool. Buddhism only started for me 5-6 years later after highschool. Just reading it (tao te ching) now as a 38 year old (20 years later) is a treat.
I'm sure we can all agree that there is nothing beyond nirvana.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Nothing is not, never was, nor will ever be.
There was always potential which could be emptiness but potential is not nothing.
Can nothing be negated based on it not being a thing?
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Jeffry hi picture this,,all of "consciouness as the ocean" and percieved individuals as the waves, now imagine the wave has concepts of seperation and harmony or dissharmony duality and non duality,,do you think the wave is seperate,,or its concepts have any truth based on its imagined seperation
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
If a wave could imagine that it is separate I would imagine it could have truth to its concepts.
Duality is an illusion until we see through it. Then it is a tool for labeling different aspects of being.
I think a wave could be separate of other waves but not separate of the ocean.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
If it is imagining anything then there is something to it.
It's hard to trick the non existent into believing it exists. It's silliness, I tells ya, lol.
The Buddha was very pracmatic and his advice is down to earth. No metaphysics here.
"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"
"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."
"In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit."
The question to enquire: Does anything at all belong to "you"? If not the question of anything beyond nirvana doesn't arise.
"Therefore you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell heedfully. We will develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.' That is how you should train yourselves."
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited May 2015
How does one go about giving a sermon with no tongue?
Maybe we just let go of it until we have to use it to explain why to let it go.
The disciples were absorbed in a discussion of Lao-tzu's dictum:
"Those who know, do not say;
Those who say, do not know."
When the master entered,
they asked him what the words meant.
Said the master, "Which of you knows the fragrance of a rose?"
All of them indicated that they knew.
Then he said, "Put it into words."
All of them were silent.
from One Minute Wisdom by Anthony DeMello
3
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@ourself said:
How does one go about giving a sermon with no tongue?
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
There is a time to teach Mahakasyapa and there is a time to teach others.
Only one of them got that sermon but eventually through words, Buddha got through to more.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yes, but at least he knew when to shut up....
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Jeffrey said:
what is truth? is it that which is not refuted?
LOL
Indeed, that is the truth in a nut/lobster shell.
As such it is very difficult to state because refuting is one of the Internets and human foibles. Language fortunately is not only about precision [@federica faints] The Truth is a process of communication that results in no opposition because it does not state absolutes but rather points out directions.
A useful illustration of Right speech is its plainness and simplicity and depth and paradox. Gibbering or cleverness is no part of this process.
Comments
no I don't think appreciating of beauty is grasping.
There are no Chiquita Bananas. There are no Chiquita Bananas
Chiquita Bananas arise, Chiquita Bananas subside.
Chiquita Bananas are similar, Chiquita Bananas are different.
Chiquita Bananas are not unified; Chiquita Bananas are not dualistic,
Nagarjuna Chiquita.
@igor.bayluk;
There has always been the potential for Chiquita bananas.
What was there before there was anything?
The potential for everything.
"The ultimate Truth is beyond words. Doctrines are words. They're not the Way. The Way is wordless. Words are illusions. They're no different from things that appear in your dreams at night, be they palaces or carriages, forested parks or lakeside pavilions. Don't conceive any delight for such things. They're all cradles of rebirth."
This is from "The Zen teachings of Bodhidharma." Red Pine's translation. Nuff said IMO.
I'm thankful that the likes of Bodhidharma ignored his own advice and gave us his words.
the Tao Te Ching
@jeffery - I love the tao te ching.
My first favourite verse: 79
I started "working and growing" from this verse.
Simple yet profound.
The same can be said the other way round.
oh i like 79 too...
Actually Tao Te Ching was the first (or a main) influence of eastern thought for me when I was in highschool. Buddhism only started for me 5-6 years later after highschool. Just reading it (tao te ching) now as a 38 year old (20 years later) is a treat.
I'm sure we can all agree that there is nothing beyond nirvana.
but is nothing a thing?
There is no such nothing as thing.
There was always potential which could be emptiness but potential is not nothing.
Emptiness is the potential for change.
Nothing is just a handy concept.
Can nothing be negated based on it not being a thing?
Should it be dismissed as nothing simply because it takes up no space?
But logically, I am led to believe that if something can ever be called "it" then it is not nothing.
Nothing would include a lack of "itness" and any and all potential for absolutely anything including emptiness (the ability to change) and awareness.
yes I think nothing is not an itness. it couldn't be by definition. it don't know if it could be potential for an itness.
If you said 'nothing' is such and such then it wouldn't be nothing. Right?
emptiness is empty of emptiness. I don't know if it is empty (or full) of itness. good question
Should I convert to Taoism?
http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/05/zen-minus-buddhism-equals-taoism.html
What will I do with my collection of meditation cushions?
loan them to a cafe
what is itness? is itness mental? is it real? or like a pile of rocks is real?
Jeffry hi picture this,,all of "consciouness as the ocean" and percieved individuals as the waves, now imagine the wave has concepts of seperation and harmony or dissharmony duality and non duality,,do you think the wave is seperate,,or its concepts have any truth based on its imagined seperation
so the wave is itself having a notion of waveness.
Duality is an illusion until we see through it. Then it is a tool for labeling different aspects of being.
We may not be separate but we are each unique.
I think a wave could be separate of other waves but not separate of the ocean.
It's hard to trick the non existent into believing it exists. It's silliness, I tells ya, lol.
what is truth? is it that which is not refuted? i would think that there is no truth unless there is a mind that can recognize truth.
The Buddha was very pracmatic and his advice is down to earth. No metaphysics here.
The question to enquire: Does anything at all belong to "you"? If not the question of anything beyond nirvana doesn't arise.
Maybe we just let go of it until we have to use it to explain why to let it go.
Just being cheeky, sorry.
Or no-cheeky.
The disciples were absorbed in a discussion of Lao-tzu's dictum:
"Those who know, do not say;
Those who say, do not know."
When the master entered,
they asked him what the words meant.
Said the master, "Which of you knows the fragrance of a rose?"
All of them indicated that they knew.
Then he said, "Put it into words."
All of them were silent.
from One Minute Wisdom by Anthony DeMello
Like..... this....?
Only one of them got that sermon but eventually through words, Buddha got through to more.
Yes, but at least he knew when to shut up....
LOL
Indeed, that is the truth in a nut/lobster shell.
As such it is very difficult to state because refuting is one of the Internets and human foibles. Language fortunately is not only about precision [@federica faints] The Truth is a process of communication that results in no opposition because it does not state absolutes but rather points out directions.
A useful illustration of Right speech is its plainness and simplicity and depth and paradox. Gibbering or cleverness is no part of this process.
... and now back to the beyond ...
All this wisdom is making my brain hurt.
You have a brain..?! Sheer luxury!!
Lettuce all zinggg!
Take it easy on me now, there's nothing more I can do
I'm so full of what is right, I can't see what is true
From The Color of Right by Rush