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Nibbana is flame going out?
genie
Explorer
Nibbana is often compared to the flame going out, so basically consciousness ends or goes out of the body. How is this different from what usually happens (at death)? So what I am asking is, did buddha teach the ending of consciousness (which seems odd), or something else?
Thanks.
0
Comments
Nibbana (with residue) is not the ending of consciousness but the ending of flames of greed, hatred and delusion. It is also described as the realisation of the reality of non grasping where the 5 aggregates are seen as impermanent, unsatisfactory and not self.
Parinibbana (ie. nibbana without residue) is a different thing where the 5 aggregates being seen for what they are is allowed to "cool" or cease.
No - the Buddha taught only two things.
The cause of suffering and the end of suffering.
I think you'll find the flame going out was the Buddha's comparison of craving ending and not the end of consciousness as you stated above.
@genie
Try thinking of that flame as our conditioned reflex responses to phenomena.
&
the flame going out is just the transcendence of that conditioned inertia.
This is about deathlesness, not death.
Here, consciousness is unhindered by all such thoughts of self verses others.
Think of it renunciation rather than acquisition, and then just drop it all.
The quicker a practitioner puts aside all concepts of Nirvana, the quicker** those** concepts will not be what obstructs it's manifestation.
"Phew" what a relief....
So consciousness will not end and will remain? If so, how is this different from Hinduism? I am sorry, but it's hard to believe the buddha merely repackaged hinduism.
I still feel buddha included everything - greed, clinging etc. - in consciousness.
Something else, which is not so odd. The ending or rather the lessening involvement with our long suffering karmic Dukkha.
In other words a wake up call. The extinction of the Matrix Machine.
"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream, Neo? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? "
Morpheus
as for the continuation of recognizable personal consciousness after being recycled into worm fodder, good luck with that ...
Mooji says consciousness is the fragrance of the divine BUT there is awareness of even consciousness. That which is aware of even consciousness is beyond any concept or name. I think this is the distinction or difference.
This is beyond space, time, death, birth, mind... All these are perceived in it.
Candle blowing out is the death of concepts and realising that which is doesn't die.
Let's find out shall we?
This sutta will clear things up for you.
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.1
Thanks so much. From the very same link:
“But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness ...."
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.1
Suttas like this do appear to describe liberation from a cycle of birth and death.
See also the next sutta: https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2, where ( literal ) birth, ageing and death arise in dependence on bhava ( existence or becoming ).
An alternative view is that with dependent cessation what is being described is cessation of ignorant formations, ignorant consciousness, ignorant contact, not the complete cessation of these processes. But this view is structurally problematic when you look at all 12 links.
There is no concensus on how dependent origination or dependent cessation should be interpreted, just a lot of opinions and some very convoluted theories.
Practically speaking it's probably best to focus on the section which is immediately relevant to our experience, ie contact-feeling-craving.
Our dharmakaya nature never goes anywhere nor returns. And then at the same time there is a manifestation that we can say is 'me'. Otherwise how do you know that there is a difference between me and you? I am a different person right? So there has to be a manifestation. So at death the manifestation I have for this life changes and is gone. But dharmakaya never goes or comes and it does not 'snuff out'.
The big problem is self clinging. The problem is not that there is something 'there'. Because there could be Buddha qualities of love and compassion or intelligence or whatever.