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Have you reached the ultimate goal?

NamadaNamada Veteran
edited June 2015 in Buddhism Basics

What kind of obstacles do you face right now in your practice?

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Comments

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    "What kind of obstacels do you face right now in your practice?"

    "Samsara" (if one can can call this experience an obstacle)

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    The usual thing: carrying the insight gained on the cushion into the real world.
    Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
    A work in progress...

    ShoshinlobsterNamada
  • NamadaNamada Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @DhammaDragon Yes, I understand but Can you only gain insight on the cushion? You are still in the real world if you are on the cushion...

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    @Namada said:
    DhammaDragon Can you only gain insight on the cushion?

    No. I was metaphorically referring to the practice in general.
    Putting the theory into practice.

  • NamadaNamada Veteran

    Ok! I did take it literally :)

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Have you reached the ultimate goal?

    Not even the Buddha, the ultimate Buddhist managed that. Achieved perfect enlightenmet and then had to go on to parinirvana.
    Soon we will be hearing about hypernirvana. No rest for Ultimates ...
    Modern Buddhist usage tends to restrict ‘nirvāṇa’ to the awakening experience and reserve ‘parinirvāṇa’ for the death experience.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinirvana

    What kind of obstacles do you face right now in your practice?

    Mostly me.

    Namada
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @lobster said:
    Mostly me.

    I would have to agree with @lobster, he is my main obstacle :lol:

    WalkerlobsterNamadammo
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Distraction. Bringing so many things that are important to me into a manageable routine while also having a very busy family. Making the time for meditation, yoga, food planning and prep, exercise, home care, and child/pet care is truly more than a full time job. I don't know how people who work manage.

    Namada
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    One day at a time.

    ShoshinlobsterNamada
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @Tony_A_Simien said:
    Practice! Practice! Practice! This is how we do it.

    I prefer the alternative, perhaps you can tell us about that? o:) ... and hi :)

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @Tony_A_Simien nicely written.

    lobstersilvermmo
  • @lobster

    There is no alternative to continuous practice if one's goal is permanacy in one's natural state. How can one rediscover one's natural state without initially putting forth effort?

    We live two realities at all times. The relative ( world of names, definitions, descriptions, judgments, desires, likes, aversions, beliefs, symbolism, ritual, experience and all personal ideology which is the result of the aforementioned) and the ultimate (the absence of relativity).

    How can we possibly hope to cut through mind's conditioning to the relative without constant effort?

    Our consciousness began accumulating the relative since the moment of our birth.

    How can we even hope to penetrate all of mind's concoctions without continuous effort?

    Now there may be a point in one's practice where it becomes effortless. By effortless I mean it becomes habitual to always be aware of the contents of one's mind When it arises. One's continuous practice has lead to a condition where The relative is known immediately. If a thought arises it's known. If anger arises it's known. The knowing is so quick that it subsides as soon as it arises. One knows immediately when desires arise. One knows desire as just mind concocting based on Its contents. One can let it go. Because one knows immediately it has no time consume us.

    We naturally abide in the calm and silence prior to mind. So when mind is reborn we know it automatically. We observe effortlessly. Effortlessness has happened because of the continuity of practice. At this point it's still possible to lose ourselves in mind's web of fantasy. But because we have become skilled at self observation we naturally move away from it. Our tendency may be more towards silence and even mindedness. We become more accepting. Therefore there is less suffering. We continue our methods of practice but now with less effort. Diligence and vigilance is high but now it's natural.

    We continue this way until there is permanancy in our natural state.

    lobsterEarthninjaShoshinpegembara
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    (...'Permanence... not 'permanancy'.... :blush: )

    lobstersilverEarthninja
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    Have you reached the ultimate goal?

    Yes, but I can't remember what it was.

    Namadasilvermmolobster
  • @federica

    Yes permanence in the natural state or simply permanency. It was also misspelled. Thank you for the correction.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    (I'm the forum grammar nerd. Sorry 'bout that.... you'll get used to me... I never intend malice by it, btw... It's just a bit like nails on a blackboard to me... :D )

    Tony_A_Simien
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @Tony_A_Simien said:

    There is no alternative to continuous practice if one's goal is permanacy in one's natural state. How can one rediscover one's natural state without initially putting forth effort?

    My natural state is not a goal, it is the uncovering of the cause of effort.

    How can we possibly hope to cut through mind's conditioning to the relative without constant effort?

    Where there is a will there is No Way?

    How can we even hope to penetrate all of mind's concoctions without continuous effort?

    We never will as far as I know ...

    Now the alternatives:

    • One is Love, devotion and surrender - also available in Dharma. The heart based path.

    • Another is to stop using effort to make breakthroughs, attain goals, change from the present. This as you probably know, is the approach used in some Zen and Dzogchen teachings.

    ... and now back to the obstacles ...

  • @lobster

    We all express ourselves differently. Our expressions are based on our previous conditioning (e.g traditions, culture, experience, knowledge etc.) These are only words used to direct one to that which we are.

    Because one being's expression of their experience Or knowing is different does not invalidate it. I can only express to you my knowing from practicing continuously. If what has been expressed does not seem to fit within one's own view then do not follow what has been expressed here. And that's fine.

    There are over 7 billion people on the planet. Each with their own unique ideology and interpretations. If 7 billion people read these writings there would be 7 billion unique interpretations of its meaning. Some would agree some would not. I do my best to express my life as a dedicated practitioner. Our lives have all been different, therefore our interpretations Will be different And our expressions of it will be different.

    I have one rule which I always do my best to follow. I never speak of aspects of meditative living that is not within my personal direct knowing. If I cannot validate it from knowing directly (from living the life) I will not intentionally speak of it.

    How can I speak with any authority about that which I have not known directly? By discussing practice and the result of it without the direct knowing to validate it personally I may cause more harm than good.

    So I don't speak from books or scripture. I only speak of what I know from living that life. And like yours and everyone else's. This expression is unique to me. And I don't expect or need everyone to agree. I'm only telling the story of my life as a practitioner.

    lobster
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    @Tony_A_Simien said:
    lobster

    We all express ourselves differently. Our expressions are based on our previous conditioning (e.g traditions, culture, experience, knowledge etc.) These are only words used to direct one to that which we are.

    Because one being's expression of their experience Or knowing is different does not invalidate it. I can only express to you my knowing from practicing continuously. If what has been expressed does not seem to fit within one's own view then do not follow what has been expressed here. And that's fine.

    There are over 7 billion people on the planet. Each with their own unique ideology and interpretations. If 7 billion people read these writings there would be 7 billion unique interpretations of its meaning. Some would agree some would not. I do my best to express my life as a dedicated practitioner. Our lives have all been different, therefore our interpretations Will be different And our expressions of it will be different.

    I have one rule which I always do my best to follow. I never speak of aspects of meditative living that is not within my personal direct knowing. If I cannot validate it from knowing directly (from living the life) I will not intentionally speak of it.

    How can I speak with any authority about that which I have not known directly? By discussing practice and the result of it without the direct knowing to validate it personally I may cause more harm than good.

    So I don't speak from books or scripture. I only speak of what I know from living that life. And like yours and everyone else's. This expression is unique to me. And I don't expect or need everyone to agree. I'm only telling the story of my life as a practitioner.

    Hey, cool. Wow, you're no beginner, are you? Where'd you come from?

    You remind me of Morpheus (your avy picture). ;)

  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran

    No.
    I haven't.
    Enlightenment is not a goal. It is a process. It not something you reach but something you are.
    J.Krishnamurti, an Indian mystic (not a Buddhist) said something that is very relevant to all spiritual paths, including Buddhism. He said, "
    "As long as you are a Seeker, you will not Find."

    EarthninjaNamada
  • Tony_A_SimienTony_A_Simien Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @silver

    I've been around for awhile. But I have not written anything publically for 6 months until now. Anything written was only shared with family and friends.

    I used to write articles for a Google plus account and also many other Google Plus communities.

    I have a regular job and regular household responsibilities so I found that writing, commenting and answering questions was taking up much of my time. So I deleted everything. The entire account including all of my writings.

    As long as that account existed and there was a question which I was able to answer; I did. Sometimes I would wake up in the middle of the night to answer questions. Which was fine. But I had little time of other necessary duties.

    I happened upon this forum while doing a search and thought that maybe I could possibly be useful to someone. Even if its just one; that is enough. But it's not necessary.

    We are all beginner's. Every moment is fresh and New.

    silverlobstermmopegembara
  • WalkerWalker Veteran

    @Tony_A_Simien said:

    One could compare seated meditation to learning to drive in a parking lot. And practicing continuously Is like learning to drive on the road and highways. To be really skilled at driving one must expand one's practice to the busyness of the road (busyness of life). In the beginning We only practice in an empty parking lot to become accustomed to the activity of driving. We allow it to become somewhat habitual. Then we must take it to the open road. What's the point of learning to drive if you only do it in an empty parking lot? How does that benefit us? By practicing from within the busyness of daily life we learn to overcome the effects of mind by practicing during those moments when mind is most conflicted.

    I really like that analogy Tony. Thanks.

    Tony_A_Simien
  • @Walker

    You're welcome. I'm glad you found it useful.

  • NamadaNamada Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @Tony_A_Simien "When our senses contact an appearance mind comes into being. Mind is born. We name, define, describe, judge, desire and or have aversion to every object which appears to the senses. This is mind"

    To watch and see what mind creates at all time can be difficult, since it is an ungoing process that never stops.
    We judge we have aversion for things all the time.

    But how to live with this judging mind or how to be aware of this?

    Its with mindfullness and meditation
    or sati samadhi and panna.

    Anyway it can be confusing, since our judging mind is very strong.
    So it difficult to always know when you are one real Lotus Flower or just
    digging in the mud :)

  • Tony_A_SimienTony_A_Simien Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @Namada

    "To watch and see what mind creates at all time can be difficult, since it is an ungoing process that never stops.
    We judge we have aversion for things all the time.

    But how to live with this judging mind or how to be aware of this?"

    Yes the nature of mind is activity. And it can be difficult to observe initially. This is why continuity of practice is essential. In this case practice refers to self observation. We observe ourselves continuously.

    Consciousness never stops. Only upon bodily death does consciousness stop. Consciousness continues until the body is no more.

    Mind however can be stopped. Mind are those qualities which we have attached to objects as a result of worldly life. It is possible to uncondition consciousness of its incessant habitual tendency to attach characteristics to whatever appears. We experience our daily lives silently. Consciousness is silent. There are activities in the background which controls bodily functioning. There is continued activity which dictates our responses during different situations; all of this continues as long as there is breath in the body. But mind can be ceased for a time. Depending upon how one has trained (appropiate training for one's character; continuity of practice, vigilance and diligent in applying oneself to the practice).

    Every practitioner is different. However it Is indeed possible to simply be this knowing presence prior to mind without being influenced from the judging mind. Conscioussness continues but mind subsides.

    I know for some, because of their current condition, This may seem like an impossibility. However It is a possibility for All.

    We practice tranquility (Samatha) meditation to bring calmness and stillness to mind. As we begin to experience stillness and clarity; We move on to insight (vipassana) meditation.

    Because our mind is less active, we now have space for investigation into the true nature of things. We begin vipassana. We observe ourselves during daily activities. We observe our reactions to objects, which includes people. Our investigation into reality has more clarity and vividness now. Before our mind was cluttered continuously. Now there is a little silence. There is a gap. Or many extended gaps.

    As we observe, mind interferes less. Mind interferes less because our investigation; our observation is happening in the gap. We begin to realize aspects of life we did not realize before. Because mind continuously interfered. The activity of mind was always there. As we realize more we begin to lose some of our interests. We become dispassionate. Because we know them as they really are. When we lose interest in an object consciousness creates less or no thoughts regarding those objects. When they do arise they are let go because we have NO interest.

    How often does one think about toilet paper? Only when it's needed or when it's needed and one has none right? Otherwise as soon as it is no longer useful for the moment we completely forget about it. Until it's time to use it again. And even then we really don't think about it. We use it without craving or desire. Its merely a necessity.

    So when we become dispassionate about objects it's similar to this. Those past thoughts, judgments and desires no longer occupies our consciousness because we have completely lost interest. It's like writing on water. They subside as quickly as they arise. Leaving no trace of having arisen.

    Vipassana is very important whatever term is used to refer to it. This is the process of seeing or cutting though delusion. Cutting though delusion causes us to lose interest ; which allows greater even mindedness and silence of mind.

    There are some who have been practitioners of meditation for decades but continue to hold on to their worldly aversions and desires. Some practice to attain worldly benefits. This is the problem. We let go because we see through. We see through because we observe continuously. We are able to observe continuously because we have trained ourselves continuously.

    Namadalobstermisecmisc1pegembara
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2015

    @Namada said:
    What kind of obstacles do you face right now in your practice?

    I know what I am experiencing is basically my inability to release and transcend suffering.

    However, I know precisely what to do about it and am doing it. But I am still only a portion of the way there...

    There is a Chinese saying that states:
    "women are 99% more spiritually-advanced than men, and 1% deluded. But it takes as much strain and effort for women to overcome that final 1%, as it does for men to conquer their 99%..."

    lobster
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    No, but I feel that I now have a better understanding of the middle way.

    Tony_A_Simien
  • @federica said:
    (I'm the forum grammar nerd. Sorry 'bout that.... you'll get used to me... I never intend malice by it, btw... It's just a bit like nails on a blackboard to me... :D )

    No need for apologies. And feel free to correct my grammar to your heart's content.

    I always reread several times for errors before posting. But I'm so long winded that it's easy to miss a word or two here and there. It's exhausting having to reread all of those words more than three times.

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @Tony_A_Simien said: Consciousness never stops. Only upon bodily death does consciousness stop. Consciousness continues until the body is no more.

    The Buddha discovered the way to the cessation of consciousness, the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of consciousness.

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    "And what is consciousness, what is the origin of consciousness, what is the cessation of consciousness, what is the way leading to the cessation of consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. With the arising of formations there is the arising of consciousness. With the cessation of formations there is the cessation of consciousness. The way leading to the cessation of consciousness is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.

    The discourse on right view
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html

  • So will I become unconscious if I get enlightened? ;)

    bookworm
  • Tony_A_SimienTony_A_Simien Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @bookworm

    The Buddha discovered the way to the cessation of consciousness, the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of consciousness.

    That refers to identification of objects as they are contacted by the sense apparatus. In this case consciousness refers to mental constructs or formations which arise as a result of contact with appearances. Mental formation is mind. But in this instance the word consciousness is used.

    When sound waves contact the ears. Ear consciousness is born. Or We could also express it this way. When sound waves contact the ears memory is accessed for previous experiences related to those sounds and then identification happens. That is mind. Ear consciousness Here means identification happens. The cessation of ear consciousness does not mean it is completely obliterated. If that were the case we would lose our hearing. Losing one's hearing is the physical cessation of ear consciousness.

    That quote refers to the cessation of mental identification of whatever contacts the senses, which causes labels, definitions and descriptions to arise relating to contact. When there is no mind, there is no identification. When there is no identification there is no recognition. When there is NO recognition. There is only awareness. Which is the cessation of all objects. Which is the cessation of all consciousness.

    This is what the Buddha may have been pointing towards. But the foundation of human existence is consciousness. This body could not function without one. One would simply be a lifeless hunk of flesh, blood, hair and bones. Pure consciousness is without objects. Recognition of Objects is not necessary for the body's subconscious functioning. The consciousness I was referring to is the one below our conscious level that we cannot control.

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    “And what, bhikkhus, is ignorance? Not knowing suffering, not knowing the origin of suffering, not knowing the cessation of suffering, not knowing the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.

    https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2

  • @Tony_A_Simien said:Recognition of Objects is not necessary for the body's subconscious functioning. The consciousness I was referring to is the one below our conscious level that we cannot control.

    Unfortunately Tony that interpretation isn't supported by the suttas on dependent origination and cessation, where the consciousness nidana is defined in the usual 6-fold way.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

    bookworm
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    When I said that I now have a better understanding of the middle way, I meant from my own understanding.

  • Tony_A_SimienTony_A_Simien Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @SpinyNorman

    I can only speak from my own point of knowing. What I live in daily life. Whether the suttas agree or disagree is not my concern. What I express to you is not what I've read, it's my life.

    There's something we must all remember. Suttas and all doctrine have been interpreted by many mind's before being put into print. How can one know whether they are valid unless one has known for oneself. If what I express rings true to any of you then take what has been said to heart. If not simply ignore my words. I take no offense. The Suttas and such are simply guides. That is all.

    silverEarthninjaPöljämmo
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @Tony_A_Simien said: The Suttas and such are simply guides.

    I agree, however in this instance you were responding to something from the suttas, and your explanation didn't make sense.

  • @SpinyNorman

    I agree, however in this instance you were responding to something from the suttas, and your explanation didn't make sense.

    My explanation was based on my experience. So I read the quote and I responded based on my own interpretation or understanding of those words, when applied to my own life. If my explanation was not understood, if It were misinterpreted, or maybe my ability, in this case, to translate my experiences accurately into words was flawed. But whatever the reason I did the best I could.

    Keep in mind, if 1000 people read the same post there would be 1000 unique interpretations of it. When we read anything we can only understand it from our own unique perspective. It's ALL interpretation. Maybe I'm simply not skilled enough in my explanations. And that's okay. I'm only human.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran
    edited June 2015

    That's OK , and dependent cessation is very difficult to explain. However on Buddhist forums "my explanation was based on experience" will only buy you a certain amount of time. You're in a very forgiving environment here, and if you want to express your ideas more widely you may need to tighten up your thinking.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I have to agree with Spiny here, on his last point. Visiting other Buddhist forums may not be an easy ride.... and you'll get poked in the chest plenty.
    It's not always a pleasant learning curve....

  • @SpinyNorman
    @federica

    Yes I know this to be true. About 6 months before coming here I was a member of Google plus. In addition to posting to my own account I was a member of 98 Google plus spiritual communities. But they encompassed many traditions. Whatever I posted to one, I posted to all. So I'm sure you can imagine it was a constant battle. Having to always defend your words.

    I had many debates and had mud thrown in my eyes (I threw some also but I did it subtly) by self proclaimed, "Zen Masters", "Gurus", "Sage", "Buddhists teachers" and such. So I spent my 1.5 year membership defending my points. But in the beginning I was very crude and rough. I had no concern for 'feelings' I said whatever came out of my mouth. And If they didn't like it. "Too bad, so sad." But I've refined my way of speaking since then.

    Because it's been my experience that When you offend some individuals they tend to close their minds to you. Sometimes even when they agree with you. Simply because they feel they've been disrespected by you. I know that when you post your views out there you may get hit from all directions. My entire membership was like this. So I'm used to being kicked around like an ole mangy dog lol. Your every word being picked apart meticulously. Then you get slammed to the ground face first. Ahhh those were the days.

    And you're right about this forum being a forgiving environment. Compared to where I came from this place is relaxing.

    ShoshinEarthninjammo
  • WalkerWalker Veteran

    @Tony_A_Simien said:

    And you're right about this forum being a forgiving environment. Compared to where I came from this place is relaxing.

    I know I really felt 'at home' here right from the start.

    Tony_A_SimienDairyLama
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited June 2015

    @federica said:
    "women are 99% more spiritually-advanced than men, and 1% deluded. But it takes as much strain and effort for women to overcome that final 1%, as it does for men to conquer their 99%..."

    I rather like that. Never heard it before. I feel there is a lot of Truth in it. We are VERY fortunate to have a lot of active women on this forum. It is women's active common sense and compassion that I feel is the 99% that I personally value. Men tend to be focussed on their wood, rather than the whole forest ecology.

    The subtle but important differences are where empowerment comes in. We complement each other. We emphasize each other. We draw out our strengths.

    It is sometimes said the whole of the path is in good companionship.

    Some of us through inclination, circumstance and karma are solitary and populate our needs for social interaction with Buddhas, teachers, cyber sangha and so on. Others are out going and connected to the whirling world.

    @Namada said:
    What kind of obstacles do you face right now in your practice?

    So it is not obstacles we face. It never has been. We have opportunities reflected through 'others' ...

    Travellersilver
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @Tony_A_Simien said:
    SpinyNorman
    federica

    Yes I know this to be true. About 6 months before coming here I was a member of Google plus. In addition to posting to my own account I was a member of 98 Google plus spiritual communities. But they encompassed many traditions. Whatever I posted to one, I posted to all. So I'm sure you can imagine it was a constant battle. Having to always defend your words.

    I had many debates and had mud thrown in my eyes (I threw some also but I did it subtly) by self proclaimed, "Zen Masters", "Gurus", "Sage", "Buddhists teachers" and such. So I spent my 1.5 year membership defending my points. But in the beginning I was very crude and rough. I had no concern for 'feelings' I said whatever came out of my mouth. And If they didn't like it. "Too bad, so sad." But I've refined my way of speaking since then.

    Because it's been my experience that When you offend some individuals they tend to close their minds to you. Sometimes even when they agree with you. Simply because they feel they've been disrespected by you. I know that when you post your views out there you may get hit from all directions. My entire membership was like this. So I'm used to being kicked around like an ole mangy dog lol. Your every word being picked apart meticulously. Then you get slammed to the ground face first. Ahhh those were the days.

    Hmm sounds like a lot of enlightened beings were on that site. :)
    My view is better than your view.
    My guru is better than yours.
    My practice gets enlightenment faster.
    Meanwhile nobody has the slightest clue what's going on. :)
    What a great game right.

    Welcome here anyway friend!

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    Hi, @Tony_A_Simien:
    We can base our interpretations of the Buddha's teachings -or of anything in life, for that matter- on our experiences up to a point.
    The point where our interpretation begins to be too personal, subjective and arbitrary.

    If it is our personal opinion, it is important to express that it is so, otherwise we'll misconstrue Buddhadharma to make it fit into the opinion we have formed about it.
    Buddhadharma is what it is, not what we want it to be.
    Certainly not, the opinion we have of it.

    TravellerlobsterEarthninja
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran

    Trying to forget goals because they don't seem compatible with focusing my attention on the present.

    ajhayes
  • ajhayesajhayes Northern Michigan Veteran

    @Telly03 said:
    Trying to forget goals because they don't seem compatible with focusing my attention on the present.

    I'm with @Telly03 on this one.

    "It is better to travel well than to arrive."

    silverEarthninjasovammo
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