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stream-winners (sothapanna-sovan-who got the Noble-Right-View)

upekkaupekka Veteran
edited August 2015 in Meditation

there are things that a stream-winner does:

keeps five precepts always
respects all sungha without any exception
knows clearly what to do for the full deliverance

may or may not have a family
may or may not become a sungha

are there any more facts regarding stream-winner?
have you ever read or heard that a stream-winner born in human realms after his/her death? if so can you provide the source?

thanks

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Comments

  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    I don't know what a stream-winner is or a sungha (same as sangha?)

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    One who possesses the Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer.

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited August 2015

    On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali in the Gabled Hall in the Great Forest. Then Nandaka, the chief minister of the Licchavis, went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "Nandaka, a disciple of the noble ones endowed with four qualities is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening. Which four?

    Licchavi Sutta
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.030.than.html

    upekka
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited August 2015

    Into the Stream
    A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening
    by
    Thanissaro Bhikkhu

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/into_the_stream.html#attention

    Victoriousupekka
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited August 2015

    Is Thanisasaro Bhikku considered to be a stream winner?
    The reason I ask is because I noticed that he has opposed the ordination of women to the Thai forest tradition and I wonder how a view that might be considered sexist would remain after stream entry.
    Maybe it's not relevant. Has his position on this been discussed here? I must have missed it.

  • thanks @bookworm

    is there any source to know the difference between 'practicing towards once-returner' and 'practicing towards non-returner'

    i ask this because until one become non-returner one has 'kama-raga' and 'patigha'

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    I'm not sure.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @upekka said:
    there are things that a stream-winner does:

    keeps five precepts always
    respects all sungha without any exception
    knows clearly what to do for the full deliverance

    I think these premises are incorrect.

    A streamwinner does not always keep the five precepts. Remember the drunk that the Buddha declared streamwinner after his death?

    Neither do I think it is possible to respect all of the Sangha since not all the Sangha aims for Unibinding anymore. But I think the reference is the Aryan Sangha. Those that really aim for Unbinding. I have no source for this. It is mearly deduction. Feels right so to speak.

    And I think that a sotapanna does not always have to know the Path clearly step by step. But rather that E has the conviction and the mental tools needed to find the path step by step.

    I will try to find a source for the last.

    /Victor

    lobsterhow
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @upekka said:
    thanks bookworm

    is there any source to know the difference between 'practicing towards once-returner' and 'practicing towards non-returner'

    i ask this because until one become non-returner one has 'kama-raga' and 'patigha'

    Maybe there is something here?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    A stream winner is someone who has experienced nirvana but not stayed there.
    From what I can gather, most people can have a big awakening that changes how they see the world forever but still conditioning pulls them back to belief they are a person.

    lobsterhownlightenupekka
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited August 2015

    Stream-winners just need to avoid the two extremes and they'll see the middle way.

  • "However, the remaining three paths, namely: once-return (sakadāgāmin), non-return(anāgāmin), and sainthood(arahatta) become 'destined' (sammatta niyāma) for the stream-entrant. Their enlightenment as a disciple (ariya-sāvaka) becomes inevitable within seven lives transmigrating among gods and humans;[18][19] if they are diligent (appamatta, appamāda) in the practice of the Teacher's (satthāra) message, they may fully awaken within their present life. They have very little future suffering to undergo.[20]"

    "Seven lives transmigrating among gods and humans"

    So according to that you can be born up to 7 times max as a human before becoming enlightened after entering the stream.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sotāpanna

    EarthninjaupekkaVictorious
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    That's right, they have no more than 7 rebirths.

    .

  • http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/realizing-the-four-stages-on-the-path-to-nirvana.html

    "Realizing the Four Stages on the Path to Nirvana
    As he guided his followers over the 45 years that he taught, Buddha recognized four distinct levels or stages of realization, each one marked by a deep and unmistakable experience of selflessness followed by certain changes in outlook and behavior. The experience generally occurs during intensive meditation, when the attention has become one-pointed, and follows extensive study and understanding of the basic truths of Buddhism (especially the three marks of existence: selflessness, impermanence, and dissatisfaction).

    The following list explains the four distinct stages on the path to nirvana.

    Stream-enterer:
    The first direct insight into selflessness is often the most powerful because it's unlike anything you've ever experienced before. For a timeless moment (which may last just an instant), no one is there — that is, there's no trace of a separate self anywhere. A feeling of tremendous relief, often accompanied by joy and bliss, generally follows the experience: At last, you've had the insight you've been seeking for so long. At last, you've "entered the stream" of realization.
    When you become a stream-enterer, you can never again believe that you're really a separate self that lives inside your head and looks through your eyes. Your experience forever eliminates this illusion. When you look within, you can't find a self anywhere. In everyday life, however, you may still feel like a separate somebody and may still get caught up by greed, anger, ignorance, and various other negative feelings and patterns. Fortunately, the stage of stream-enterer also brings an unshakable confidence and dedication to the Buddhist spiritual path, so you're motivated to keep deepening and refining your realization.

    Once-returner:
    After you become a stream-enterer, your practice includes reminding yourself of your new realization of "no-self," as well as paying attention to the ways that you're still attached and your resistance to life as it unfolds. After a period of time (generally years of devoted practice) in which your concentration gets even stronger and your mind becomes even more tranquil, you have another direct insight into no-self. (Remember, knowing this truth as a concept or memory is one thing, but experiencing it directly, beyond the conceptual mind, is something else entirely.)
    This insight (essentially the same as the first but even stronger and clearer) brings a significant reduction in attachment and aversion and the suffering that accompanies these states of mind. For example, occasional irritation and preference replace hatred and greed, which no longer have any hold over the once-returner. Someone who reaches this stage has only one more rebirth before becoming completely enlightened — hence the name once-returner.

    Never-returner:
    After the experience that signals entry to this stage, all of the worst hindrances, such as hatred, greed, jealousy, and ignorance, completely drop away, but a hint of a self-sense (a "me") still remains — and with it, the slightest trace of restlessness and dissatisfaction sticks around as well. The experience itself is rarely accompanied by any emotion or excitement, just a clearer recognition of what has already been seen twice before. These people appear to be extremely content, peaceful, and without desire, but the subtlest preference for positive rather than negative experiences remains.

    Arhat:
    At this stage, the path bears ultimate fruit in nirvana — any residual trace of a separate self falls away for good. The experience, frequently accompanied by unimaginable bliss, has been compared to falling into the depths of a cloud and disappearing. At this point, the circumstances of life no longer have the slightest hold over you; positive or negative experiences no longer stir even the slightest craving or dissatisfaction. As Buddha said, all that needed to be done has been done. There's nothing further to realize. The path is complete, and no further rebirths are necessary."

    EarthninjalobsterVictorious
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    That sounds right I think.

    Earthninja
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited August 2015

    arhat not Ahh hat? :3

    ... back of the dharma wisdom class streaming for Lobster ... Any more slips ups and I will end up an unclassed Mahayana 'forever returner' :o

    Earthninja
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    @Victorious said: That sounds right I think.

    Its not.

    EarthninjaVictorious
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    Hahah. <3

  • @bookworm said:
    Its not.

    Care to elaborate?

    [lobster claims a front seat for dharma debate: cue nuns]

  • @lobster said:... back of the dharma wisdom class streaming for Lobster ... Any more slips ups and I will end up an unclassed Mahayana 'forever returner' :o

    Bodhisattvas vow to liberate all beings, so that could take quite a while. ;)

    lobster
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @Victorious said:
    That sounds right I think.

    It could be but it seems odd that we would have to go from once-returning to never-returning to Arhat in 2 lifetimes. I guess the first time takes the longest as it could take many lifetimes to even become aware of the stream.

    I don't think it's very fruitful to conjecture about these things though and feel this coming debate is going to be pretty dogmatic on both sides.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @ourself said:

    Did not follow . Where does it say it takes 2 Life times ?

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @bookworm said:
    Its not.

    Go on please?

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @Victorious said:

    In the section about being a once-returner it says there is only one more birth. That means there is only one lifetime in which to attain never-returning and arhatship.

    In turn that would mean that the last three stages are covered in only two lifetimes.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @ourself said:

    Number of lifetimes should be read as "at the most" so a sotapanna for instance will become unbound in 7 litetimes at the MOST.

    It is always possible to attain unbinding in one litetime.

    Cheers.

    David
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @lobster said: Care to elaborate.

    @Victorious said:
    Go on please?

    The stream-enterer sees the 4 Noble Truths.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @bookworm said:
    The stream-enterer sees he 4 Noble Truths.

    And that is in opposition to upekkas post because ...?

    l know about your approach to cultivation. So I would really value your opinion. Here or on pm.

    Thanks.

    bookworm
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @Victorious said:
    Cheers.

    It sounds a little less arbitrary when "at the most" is added but I don't see anything about seven lifetimes in the list I was referring to.

    The description of the levels sounds about right from what I've gathered but a timeline seems a bit presumptuous.

  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited August 2015

    most important thing is becoming stream entry (stream winner)

    this is the demarcation between woldling (pruthajjana) and Noble (arya)

    once one become a stream entry one can decide (or according to how strong one's habitual tendencies) whether one needs to go through other stages in the same life time or taking several life times

    seven life times is the most (not more than seven life time) for stream entry can be seen in 'karanieya metta sutta - nathe bavan attaman adiyanthi'

    it says not eight 'bava' so it is less than eight bava

    i am not sure whether the 'bava' means life times
    or
    1.Once-returner-way (magga),
    2.Once returner fruit (Pala),
    3.Non-returner-way (magga),
    4.Non-returner fruit (Pala),
    5.Arahat-way (magga),
    6.Arahat fruit (Klesa parinirvana - end of defilement),
    and
    7.finally Nibbana (death of Arahat-Skandh Parinirvana)

    VictoriousEarthninja
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @upekka;

    I may be presuming too much but it seems from a lot of the posts here that many of us have reached stream entry.

    I'm interested in the reason for positing "not eight" aside from it coming from an authoritative source.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @ourself said:
    but a timeline seems a bit presumptuous...

    There is no timeline in that text.

    Cheers

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @ourself said:
    upekka;

    I may be presuming too much but it seems from a lot of the posts here that many of us have reached stream entry.

    I'm interested in the reason for positing "not eight" aside from it coming from an authoritative source.

    I doubt it, stream entry as described by many teachers is seeing nirvana directly.

    Adyashanti describes it as absolutely no trace of self identity anywhere. Everywhere is just oneness( he calls it spirit) . There is no right and wrong. Everything is seen as perfect as it is. All duality is gone in every sense.
    And this isn't even it, there is something that is aware of all this that is completely beyond any description. That's where you are looking from.

    Based on the above description I know even moments of expanded consciousness is not stream entry. Stream entry is beyond even consciousness.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @Victorious said:
    Cheers

    One lifetime left is a timeline.

    Am I speaking english?

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @Earthninja said:

    According to what we just read it is the very first insight into selflessness.

    To witness the stream is said to enter the stream.

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran

    It is seeing things as they truly are.

    Victorious
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @ourself I doubt it but hey, guess we are all stream enterers then! 7 lives left! Yeeew

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @Earthninja said:
    ourself I doubt it but hey, guess we are all stream enterers then! 7 lives left! Yeeew

    I neither doubt it nor do I believe. There is just this lifetime that I know of so speculating about others seems a bit short sighted.

    According to the stages @upekka provided, I seem to be a once-returner. I'm not too concerned about that, I'm just curious as to where the numbers came from.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @bookworm said:
    It is seeing things as they truly are.

    This sounds exactIy right.. :)

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @ourself said:

    One Full Cup comming right up.

    Over and out.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @Victorious said:

    So you don't see how having a designated amount of lifetimes to reach a goal is considered a timeline.

    And cannot consider the possibility that the numbers could be completely arbitrary.

    And you try to make a silly quip about my cup being full?

    Over and out indeed, lmao.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @bookworm said:
    It is seeing things as they truly are.

    Yes but that means different things to different people.

    It cannot be argued though, I'll give it that.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @ourself said:

    Simply put there is no one in this Multiverse who has ever considered an imposed multi lifetime timeline for sotapanna to arahatship chain. On the contrary Unbinding is available for anyone to realise in this life time, year, month, week day or even very next second.

    I was trying to explain that to you. But it is too hard Learning something useful from me then by all means dont.

    cheers.

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @Victorious said:

    I'm just going by what has been presented on this thread.

    I clearly see a timeline presented once the stream has been entered in @Upekka's post.

    If you don't see it then I don't know what to say. Perhaps just let @Upekka answer if you cannot tell me why it says there is only one lifetime to live after Once-Returner.

    "Someone that has reached this stage has only one more rebirth before becoming completely enlightened- Hence the name -Once-Returner."

    That would necessarily mean we cover the last 3 stages in only 2 lifetimes.

    If you are interjecting wisdom from your own experience or teachings then by all means but don't tell me there is no timeline in the post I was referring to.

    I apologize for the "english" comment. It was unskillful but the passage is clear.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @ourself said:

    I think upekka answerd your question much the same way I did.

    once one become a stream entry one can decide (or according to how strong one's habitual tendencies) whether one needs to go through other stages in the same life time or taking several life times
    

    And you are totally correct in your "odd" comment. It would be odd indeed. The best answer is that there is no such "have to" of Iifetimes.

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @ourself said:
    To witness the stream is said to enter the stream.

    That's right, and the stream is the eightfold path.

    lobster
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @bookworm said:
    That's right, and the stream is the eightfold path.

    From where did you get this please? Is it a Sutta?

  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    edited August 2015

    @Victorious Yes it is a sutta, I found it in a book called in the Buddha's words by bhikkhu bodhi, its on the bottom of page 392, and it ends on page 393, its called the four factors leading to stream-entry.
    Samyutta Nikaya 55:5

    Victorious
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited August 2015

    Thanks.This I found to. Seems to confirm what I said about the sangha.

    (4) The Four Factors of a Stream-Enterer
    "Monks, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer,
    no longer bound to the lower world, fixed in destiny, with enlighten-
    ment as his destination.
    "What four? Here, monks, a noble disciple possesses confirmed con-
    fidence23
    in the Buddha thus: The Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly
    enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate,
    knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed,
    teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'
    He possesses confirmed confidence in the Dhamma thus: 'The
    Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible,
    immediate, inviting one to come and see, worthy of application, to be
    personally experienced by the wise.' He possesses confirmed confi-
    dence in the Sahgha thus: 'The Sahgha of the Blessed One's disciples
    is practicing the good way, practicing the straight way, practicing the
    true way, practicing the proper way; that is, the four pairs of persons,
    the eight types of individuals—this Sahgha of the Blessed One's disci-
    ples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, wor-
    thy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the
    world.' He possesses the moral virtues dear to the noble ones, unbro-
    ken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise,
    ungrasped, leading to concentration.
    "A noble disciple, monks, who possesses these four things is a
    stream-enterer, no longer bound to the lower world, fixed in destiny,
    with enlightenment as his destination."
    (SN 55:2; V 343-44)

    lobsterupekkabookworm
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    some ambiguoty?

    Ratana suttam.
    10. "With his gaining of insight he abandons three states of mind, namely self-illusion, doubt, and indulgence in meaningless rites and rituals, should there be any. He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings.[7] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

    1. "Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.
    Davidnlightenbookworm
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