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stream-winners (sothapanna-sovan-who got the Noble-Right-View)
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Victorious, you need to stop... you're talking to yourself.... take a breath, and give others a chance to respond....!
Just because you're insistent and 'have the floor', doesn't necessarily mean that there is no response to your assertions.
Ha ha ha. Well I guess. I think I need to look at the pali texts to see if something has got lost in translation.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@bookworm said:
that's right. And the stream is the eightfold path.
Interesting. I figured entering the stream was when we first feel the labels drop away and see non-separation as the reality instead of a concept.
When you say it's the eightfold path do you mean when one masters the path they are a Stream-Enterer or when they first set foot to the path?
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@federica said:
Victorious, you need to stop... you're talking to yourself.... take a breath, and give others a chance to respond....!
Just because you're insistent and 'have the floor', doesn't necessarily mean that there is no response to your assertions.
Though I have to say it feels nice to see someone so enthusiastic.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@ourself said: Though I have to say it feels nice to see someone so enthusiastic.
Oh I agree... but in the past, I remember on one occasion a while ago, that someone (I genuinely forget who) posted 17 posts, consecutively, with no pause or wait for others to respond... it kind of stumped the thread a bit....
@ourself said:
When you say it's the eightfold path do you mean when one masters the path they are a stream- enterer or when they first set foot to the path?
The suttas say that they have the sīla loved by the noble ones, and are in the higher training, they have the trainees knowledge of right view, the higher training being Samādhi and Paññā.
Regardless of alleged sexism I think this was a pretty good collection of suttas on this matter Thanks.
Seems the diffrent views on stream-entry correlate. At least at first glance . Recommend the second chapter.
Still there seems to be a consistent distinction on how SE is described in suttas for laypeople vs those for monks. I have no i idea of relevance nor how consistant .
i think the following is very much related to what we have been discussing
if anyone think this is irrelevant just ignore
if anyone (one who experienced such thing) likes to add something, please do so
Appanà Thought-Process
§ 7. In the ecstatic (5) javana-procedure there is no distinction
between ‘clear’ and ‘obscure’. Likewise there is no
arising of retentive resultants.
In this case any one of the eight Sense-sphere javanas,
accompanied by knowledge, arise, in due order, four
times or thrice, as ‘preparation’ (parikamma), ‘approximation’
(upacàra), ‘adaptation’ (anuloma), and ‘sublimation’
(gotrabhå). Immediately after they cease, in the fourth or
fifth instant, as the case may be, any one of the javanas,
amongst the 26 Sublime and Supramundane classes, descends
into ecstatic process, in accordance with the appropriate
effort.
Here, immediately after a pleasurable javana, a
pleasurable ecstatic javana should be expected. After a
javana, accompanied by equanimity, an ecstatic javana,
accompanied by equanimity, is to be expected.
Here, too, a moral javana, is followed by a moral
javana and (in the case of attainment—samàpatti) it gives
rise to three lower Fruits.
A functional javana is followed by a functional javana
and the Fruit of Arahantship
from the book 'Abhidhamma manual' by Naradha thero
Another term for sothapanhood is the opening of the Dhamma eye (Dhammachakku). It is the first break through the illusion of selfhood and sakkayyaditthi (identity view) is seen through. This freedom from identity view will naturally lead to ending of doubt about the teachings and attachment to rites eg. merit making as the way to freedom. The 3 fetters are ended at that moment. The effect is an immediate lifting of a heavy burden, the nature of which is deep and undescribable.
The young Sheng-yen was on a brief sabbatical from the military, visiting local Ch'an teachers when, while up late one night meditating, he found himself sitting near an older man, also a guest of the monastery, who impressed Sheng-yen with his steady and peaceful demeanor. Asking the elderly monk if he would answer a question or two, Sheng-yen proceeded to pour out his heart for two hours, giving voice to all of the questions that no one had been able to help him with during his many years of spiritual practice. And at the end of each question, the monk, whom Sheng-yen would later find out was actually a revered Ch'an master, would simply ask, "Is that all?" Finally, Sheng-yen had exhausted his litany of questions and, in a moment of confusion, hesitated, not knowing what to do. Bang! The monk struck the platform they were sitting on and roared, "Take all of your questions and put them down! Who has all of these questions?" The effect on Sheng-yen was immediate and profound. "In that instant all of my questions were gone," he writes. "The whole world had changed. My body ran with perspiration but felt extraordinarily light. The person I had been was laughable. I felt like I had dropped a thousand-pound burden." The words of the Buddhist sutras [scriptures], which once seemed foreign and impenetrable, now came alive as Sheng-yen's own experience. "I understood them immediately, without explanation," he writes. "I felt as if they were my own words."
The freedom from identity view is not yet complete until arahantship is reached but the illusion of self is permanently removed. The genie is out of the bottle as it were.
The sothapan would see things in terms of causes and conditions that arises and passes.
There arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.
Comments
ohohoh!Lookatthis!
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.179.than.html
There seems to se Lots of definitions...
@Victorious, you need to stop... you're talking to yourself.... take a breath, and give others a chance to respond....!
Just because you're insistent and 'have the floor', doesn't necessarily mean that there is no response to your assertions.
Ha ha ha. Well I guess. I think I need to look at the pali texts to see if something has got lost in translation.
Interesting. I figured entering the stream was when we first feel the labels drop away and see non-separation as the reality instead of a concept.
When you say it's the eightfold path do you mean when one masters the path they are a Stream-Enterer or when they first set foot to the path?
Though I have to say it feels nice to see someone so enthusiastic.
I found this chart. I thought it might be useful for this thread.
Oh I agree... but in the past, I remember on one occasion a while ago, that someone (I genuinely forget who) posted 17 posts, consecutively, with no pause or wait for others to respond... it kind of stumped the thread a bit....
The suttas say that they have the sīla loved by the noble ones, and are in the higher training, they have the trainees knowledge of right view, the higher training being Samādhi and Paññā.
Its safe to say that they have the eightfold path.
Do all these different definitions complement each other? Or do they contradict?
Are the different definitions from seperate times? schools?
Often there is a divition of practise into lokiya and loka uttara. Is this one of those times? I.e. seperate definitions for laymen and monks?
I don't know.
Regardless of alleged sexism I think this was a pretty good collection of suttas on this matter Thanks.
Seems the diffrent views on stream-entry correlate. At least at first glance . Recommend the second chapter.
Still there seems to be a consistent distinction on how SE is described in suttas for laypeople vs those for monks. I have no i idea of relevance nor how consistant .
Cheers
i think the following is very much related to what we have been discussing
if anyone think this is irrelevant just ignore
if anyone (one who experienced such thing) likes to add something, please do so
Appanà Thought-Process
§ 7. In the ecstatic (5) javana-procedure there is no distinction
between ‘clear’ and ‘obscure’. Likewise there is no
arising of retentive resultants.
In this case any one of the eight Sense-sphere javanas,
accompanied by knowledge, arise, in due order, four
times or thrice, as ‘preparation’ (parikamma), ‘approximation’
(upacàra), ‘adaptation’ (anuloma), and ‘sublimation’
(gotrabhå). Immediately after they cease, in the fourth or
fifth instant, as the case may be, any one of the javanas,
amongst the 26 Sublime and Supramundane classes, descends
into ecstatic process, in accordance with the appropriate
effort.
Here, immediately after a pleasurable javana, a
pleasurable ecstatic javana should be expected. After a
javana, accompanied by equanimity, an ecstatic javana,
accompanied by equanimity, is to be expected.
Here, too, a moral javana, is followed by a moral
javana and (in the case of attainment—samàpatti) it gives
rise to three lower Fruits.
A functional javana is followed by a functional javana
and the Fruit of Arahantship
from the book 'Abhidhamma manual' by Naradha thero
I have downloaded the PDF. Will need some time to understand the javana process.
Another term for sothapanhood is the opening of the Dhamma eye (Dhammachakku). It is the first break through the illusion of selfhood and sakkayyaditthi (identity view) is seen through. This freedom from identity view will naturally lead to ending of doubt about the teachings and attachment to rites eg. merit making as the way to freedom. The 3 fetters are ended at that moment. The effect is an immediate lifting of a heavy burden, the nature of which is deep and undescribable.
The freedom from identity view is not yet complete until arahantship is reached but the illusion of self is permanently removed. The genie is out of the bottle as it were.
The sothapan would see things in terms of causes and conditions that arises and passes.
javana process is the kamma creation?
and
ahethuka vipaka, kamavaccara, rupavaccara, arupavaccara vipaka are the kamma-vipaka?