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Addicted to monkey mind

nakazcidnakazcid Somewhere in Dixie, y'all Veteran

Even during a nice peaceful, pleasant meditation my mind still yearns to return to jumping from branch to branch. Why? Clearly a meditative state is more peaceful, even more pleasurable, than frenetically casting about with the mind, but my brain still wants to jump about witlessly. Sutta references would be appreciated, but plain English would probably get through my thick skull better...

Comments

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    When someone is whistling in a busy crowd, you don't pay much attention.
    But in the silence of a cathedral, a whistle resonates and sounds deafening.

    When you learn to appreciate the quality and precious stillness of a silent mind, then you become 100 times more aware of how frenetic the monkey is capable of being.

    You notice the noise, chatter and wild jumping precisely because you know what it is to be in Calm Abiding. Because the monkey persists and INsists on being 'heard'.
    Persevere.
    This too will settle.

    nakazcidsilverBunkslobster
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    Luckily (?) we're not the only species who gets revved up. I was watching Cesar 911 (that dog whisperer guy) deal with crazy dogs and it was simply amazing and awe-inspiring to see how his attitude telegraphs to the dogs with behavior problems and as it turns out, the dog owners were more responsible for the animals' bad 'attitudes'. It is dumbfounding to watch him work with the animals and actually as it turns out, he's training the humans more so than the dogs.

    To me, that means there has to be a side of us that recognizes the frenetic crazy part of ourselves is not so very good, so there has to be some sort of alteration / transformation from that, to as cesar says, 'the leader of the pack' who calls the shots.

    As an aside, this morning, the thought crossed my mind that gee, we could sure use a cat whisperer, too.
    :)

    dantepw
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT VILE CHARLATAN!! HE HAS DONE MORE TO SET BACK THE PROGRESS OF UNDERSTANDING DOGS, THAN ANY OTHER PERSON EVER COULD!!!

    (Sorry. Off-topic. But as a dog behaviourist, he makes my - and plenty of others' - blood boil!!)

    OK, sorry. Back to topic.
    About that monkey.....

    silver
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran
    edited November 2015

    oops sorry auntie fed.

    dantepw
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    Thanks @karasti for the info. :)

  • howhow Veteran

    @nakazcid

    Lots of different ways of speaking of monkey mind & yes it is an addiction.

    Monkey mind can be thought of as an identity drug. A learned pattern of mental behavior that protects and maintains the egos delusive dream of it's own sovereignty.

    When that dream is being challenged (by meditating), a intensification of that protecting monkey mind is a normal conditioned counter challenge and is to be expected.

    A meditative practice is a sliding scale where we keep upping the challenge against that dream until we eventually develop more of a priority in awakening from it than in continuing to indulge in it. From there we become ex addicts but always have to remember how easy it can be to slide back there.

    From my own experiences, monkey mind can always be experienced on some level when ever I give more identity to my mind than my other sense gates.

    silverrobot
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited November 2015

    @nakazcid
    Meditation does not get rid of ones neurosis, one just becomes more aware of it, and in doing so one is able to manage it better :)

    Theory In a nutshell ....

    When one first begins to meditate (when ones butt is on the cushion) ones BuddhaNature will gradually surface bringing to ones attention, the workings of the mind, right down to the nitty gritties, (the states of flux) however when the butt leaves the cushion ones BuddhaNature takes a back seat so to speak, and one is less aware of the mental turmoil and (more often than not) becomes more involved in/attached to it again...

    Butt....(and yes there is a big butt, :wink: ) when ongoing practice starts to gradually make perfect, ones BuddhaNature gets off its butt and participates in ones daily activities, (one becomes more aware off the cushion :) ) ...End of nutshell theory of sorts......

    lobster
  • No, we are not addicted to monkey mind. However, as @shoshin stated, we either get off our duffs and take action or we let monkey mind run rampant.

    Back to the coffee.

  • Even during a nice peaceful, pleasant meditation my mind still yearns to return to jumping from branch to branch. Why? Clearly a meditative state is more peaceful, even more pleasurable, than frenetically casting about with the mind, but my brain still wants to jump about witlessly. Sutta references would be appreciated, but plain English would probably get through my thick skull better...

    Do you think that thought quoted above is an 'insight' or is it itself none other than 'monkey mind'? How do you know the difference?

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    Thoughts are no different to the wind blowing or clouds passing overhead.
    They are simply experience rising and passing.
    If thoughts are given belief or attention they tend to follow a pattern and create sentences. If not they fall away even mid sentence.
    Thoughts are an inner dialogue that supposedly divided the world into things and events. They are a story, nothing more than that. If we believe them then the story is felt to be real.

    The problem is even belief in thoughts is uncontrollable.
    I don't try to control thoughts, or observe them, or still the mind.
    For me this seems pointless now, sometimes thoughts are believed, sometimes not.
    It seems belief in them is naturally dying down and the other senses are becoming more lively.
    Not because I'm doing anything, just because thoughts aren't given that much importance.

    Monkey mind only affects who you think you are. Otherwise it has absolutely no power.
    It's simply arising and passing phenomena like everything. Who cares if it comes and goes by itself. Just let it do it's thing. It dies down by itself :)

    I'm so so much more at peace now because I'm not trying to change thoughts or manipulate them or still them etc. Because all this is just fighting the current.
    Just go with the current. Much much easier and relaxing :<3

    Shoshinnakazcid
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited November 2015

    It would seem you put a lot of 'thought' into that @Earthninja :wink: :lol:

  • namarupanamarupa Veteran
    edited November 2015

    Form, feelings, perception, consciousness, and mental fabrications (skhandas), like thoughts, are also impermanent, can be the source of one's suffering, and should not be held as "self". When you think about it, thoughts itself seem less significant than the skhandas.

  • @nakazcid said:
    Clearly a meditative state is more peaceful, even more pleasurable, than frenetically casting about with the mind, but my brain still wants to jump about witlessly.

    B)

    Indeed.

    A few years, decades or rest of our lives moving towards the peaceful, pleasurable, meditative state might be helpful ...

    ... better than being eternally witless IMHO ...

  • BarahBarah Veteran
    edited November 2015

    @nakazcid said:
    Even during a nice peaceful, pleasant meditation my mind still yearns to return to jumping from branch to branch. Why?

    Most basic definition of me/mine, that I can think of, is the stuff I control. If your 'monkey' mind is doing something against your will, is it yours?
    Of course, we can suppress it for few seconds with focused effort, but it's like pressing a vain so the blood doesn't flow. Not natural.
    There is another way to deal with it, and it is done by disregarding it. Our attention jumps between phenomena, based on their importance, and as long as you value your thoughts, your attention will grasp after them. Actually, our thoughts are often the most important thing in our lives, because our intellect is the finest tool we know.

    Remember that thinking made you meditate in the first place. You cannot respect your thoughts and ignore them at the same time.
    It's not as simple as it may look.

    silverDavidnakazcid
  • NamadaNamada Veteran
    edited November 2015

    Homework for today:

    Why is our natural moneky mind jumping around?
    Its looking for real happiness, wich this mind cant find, everything is impermanent,
    therfor this mind will never rest, but thats natural.

    Can we make it more quiet?
    Yes, we can focus on one object and always bring the mind back
    to this point, learning to focus on just one thing for a certain period of time.

    Why should we train this mind?
    To reach more wisdom and make better descisions every day, cultivate non greed, metta and right view.
    Also surrunder to the now, accept that this world and our thoughts are impermanent, suffering and not self.

    Can we reach ultimate hapiness in this life, when things are impermanent?
    Yes, but what is hapiness? Its to be tranquil in difficult situations, to have courage, and endurance to face suffering..when every one is jumping around we can be calm and be aware of the situation, we know how to use the tools and not grab on to things.
    We dont run away from suffering, but face it..and then we can trancend it.

    lobster
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    Nobody is the thinker of their thoughts. You are your thoughts. <3

  • All this reminds me of the penguins in the animation, I believe it was 'Madagascar'. The chief penguin says:
    "Smile and wave, boys, just smile and wave"

    Time for some hot chocolate

    lobsterTraveller
  • @Lionduck said:
    Time for some hot chocolate

    My sort of penguin ;)

    Traveller
  • @Earthninja said:
    Nobody is the thinker of their thoughts. You are your thoughts. <3

    And when I am not thinking?

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    Monkey mind is a nuisance because it is untrained and so are we that neglect it.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @Earthninja said:
    Nobody is the thinker of their thoughts. You are your thoughts. <3

    Thought 'is' thought :)

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @ourself said:
    Monkey mind is a nuisance because it is untrained and so are we that neglect it.

    "Where to Buddy ?"

    "Don't panic ...I know where I'm going !"

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @Barah said:
    And when I am not thinking?

    Your not just thought.

    lobster
  • @Earthninja said:
    You're not just thought.

    True. How so? Say more please. Unless new babe requires attention, then no thought required, attend to priorities ... ;)

    Earthninja
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @lobster you/me are what's going on. All that there is. How could we not be?

    Thoughts write the story.

  • techietechie India Veteran

    @Earthninja said:

    if we're not just thought, then what are we? Is there something beyond?

  • Heh. Heh.: Let's see, hmmmm...We are per-thought present-thought, post-thought, after-thought, and thought-less. Then there's ghost-thought, clouded thought, sunny thought, and, hats off to a certain ice cream loving person, shaky-thought.

    Cappuccino anyone?

  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @techie said:
    if we're not just thought, then what are we? Is there something beyond?

    You(person) is a thought, but we are also what's going on. Call it whatever you want. This is it. :)
    You and I are all if it. Trees, birds, love,hate,person,sun etc.
    that experience is us. It's incredible beyond words.
    Only the mind tells you this is not it.

    There are no boundaries between you and me. :) that image on the screen that you are looking at right now is it.
    It's just not always obvious.

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