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Reincarnation
KaldenYungdrung
Netherlands Explorer
Everybody in Buddhism and elsewhere is informed about another live after this live.
Some in Buddhism think that reincarnation is happening immediately after the state of death.
But there are also some Buddhists who know the state between the new reincarnation to explain.
That means if one dies what will happen ?
The in between state is not so known.
Best wishes
KY.
1
Comments
Reincarnation is only recognised in TIbetan Buddhism, I believe.
There is also 're-birth' to consider.
some use the term 'reincarnation' to explain're-birth'
some use them to explain two different things
in both cases these two terms use to explain birth after death
in abhidhamma, the nimitta (object) hold by the last breath of this life help to be born in the next life and it is called re-birth
in paticca-samuppada (dependent origination) re-birth means arising five skandhas (aggregates) from one moment to next moment
this same rule (paticca-samuppada) can apply to the last breath of this life and to the first breath of the next life
this what i have gathered so far from the dhamma talks, dhamma discussions, and dhamma books
Yeah in Tibetan tradition they believe the body can still house "consciousness? Spirit?" For many days before finally leaving the body. They often try leave the corpse in one area and recite mantras and blessings for days.
Personally I feel rebirth/reincarnation is a made up belief. It allows the "person" to believe they will go on existing. Same as heaven or an afterlife. The "person" can't handle the idea of death so we create new ideas to help the anxiety.
I read a line from Tony Parsons who said that liberation will happen for everyone. Either during life, or at the time of death.
When the brain function dies, the prefrontal cortex drops the illusory self.. And it was seen that this was all a big charade. There never was anybody living this life. So there never was somebody to get reborn.
All experience/life is a dance of energy. That energy is always changing apparent forms. That's what dies and gets reborn.
There is no self to get reborn,
If anybody can find this apparent self that is going to reincarnate or rebirth please let me know where it is
true
but
many of us do not see this Truth and think this is 'I', 'me', 'my self' when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, and remembering, speaking, doing
this delusion make us to be reborn and suffer (birth, ageing, get sick and die) again and again and again
this process is called samsara
or
kamma and kamma vipaka
Reincarnation is a belief in the transmigration of the “soul” of a person after death -
to another body.
Rebirth, is the belief in the continuity of karmic tendencies from one life to another.
In a very brief description, it is possible to view:
Reincarnation as the continuity of the individual’s person after death, while
Rebirth refers to the continuity of the individual’s tendencies - not the person - after death.
http://www.sokahumanism.com/nichiren-buddhism/Differences_between_Rebirth_and_Reincarnation.html
The Bardo ( The in-between state....according to the Tibetan tradition)
Rebirth (Theravada Buddhism)
Believe it or not ???? It matters not to "I" ....
Yes that's what the books say happens. It's just a faerie tale unless we actually know this is the case right. An imagined future for the rebirth of a delusion. Hmmm
so what we have to do is 'try to see dhamma' or 'try to understand dependent origination'
then rebirth would not a delusion
I think a lot of these teachings have been misunderstood.
Why I say these is that often insight occurs then you realise what the teachings meant.
You can't really do it the other way around. The intellectual mind tries hard to understand but a lot if this can not be understood conceptually it seems.
Metta
Well it is inherent connected to you, only you are not aware of this truth.
Meditation is the remedie in Buddhism to get assured about its existence.
Not knowing this is called in Buddhism /basic) Ignorance / Avidya / Ma rigpa in Tibetan
Best wishes
KY.
How is meditation going to bring me to that which is connected to me?
Where is the line of separation between me and that which is connected to me?
See this answer is just a prescription, meditate to find the answer...Why no answer?
That's what religions do, they prescribe prescriptions. Because it keeps is seeking happiness. But it's a belief, a hope for the future. But it's all just thoughts.
Ignorance is not knowing who we are. That is the root cause of suffering.
We believe something that we are not.
So we suffer.
Rebirth is just a way the ego/person/mind gets to carry on. "As an idea" - maybe in the next life...
Can you tell me what gets reborn without referring to a prescription? The reason we can't answer this question is we can not ever find what gets reborn. Is because there isn't any separation.
Don't mind me, I enjoy rambling
Bob Thurman has kind of a funny saying where he doesn't proclaim a belief in rebirth as a promise for continued existence but rather the threat of continued existence.
I guess what he means is that another life sounds nice if you're just considering one or two into the future where you have fairly good conditions like the one you have now. But if you think of it in the context of karma and delusion following you without end, aka samsara, then belief in rebirth doesn't automatically imply a wish for continuation.
Meditation is based on practice and experience derived out of the practice.
The line is the conciousness which is between.
Thoughts and doubts destroy clarity.
Ego for sure will end with death. The result or karma will create the next body.
If the actual ego would not die, the actual physical body would endure for ever.
The Shakyamuni Buddha declared once:
Look at your actual body and circumstances, then you know what karma you did cause in your previous live.
Look at your actual deeds or karma, then you will know your next body and related circumstances.
so we are that which we did cause and we cause that what we will be.
But in the most future states there is no recognition possible for the most, regarding their previous existence.
There are however enough persons who can remember.
So who you will be in the future that is certain to fore see, but the old image from the ego is buried.
The new one will be a combination of the gems of the mother and father in case of a human rebirth together mixed up with the karma in the suitcase.
Best wishes
KY
This is a pan-Buddhist discussion forum. It's probably better to respond to specific points instead of delivering long-winded lectures.
What do you understand under pan-Buddhism?
Then my answers are very specific to the point, i guess so.
In case they are wrong or mistaken then this is not ok.
But i did not hear until now questions or complains about my postings which would show me that i am walking on the wrong road here.
Best wishes
KY.
Where is the line between consciousness and everything else? Can you find one?
The ego is a story created by the brain, when the brain dies the story dies
It's just a belief isn't it? Jesus declared "The kingdom of heaven is within you! "
Does the future exist? Has anybody ever experienced the future? Isn't it just another idea?
Karma applies to a person, but there never was a person doing all this. There is no person making choices. It's more like cause and effect apparently. But nobody has ever made a choice. It's a delusion.
Just like nobody has ever thought a thought,
Metta
Reincarnation questionable.....Recycling feasible ....from a scientific view point.... What comes from the universe stays in the universe
Well, you answered your own question: they say it's "consciousness" or "very subtle mind". So, where is that, you ask? Show me where this "consciousness" is?
Science is getting there. Currently the thinking is that consciousness is a field, like the body's electro-magnetic field. There's also some speculation that a consciousness field pervades the universe. There's an idea proposed by researchers of Near Death Experiences, medical researchers, that upon death, the individual consciousness leaves the body and blends in somehow with the universe's consciousness field. Stay tuned for further developments.
Here's another question, while we're on the topic of what happens when the body dies. What happens to the human electro-magnetic field? Where does that energy go, when the mechanisms that generate it die?
Follow the energy.
I would like to say something wise and meaningful about how according to primitive Tibetan Buddhist evolutionary theory I may be reborn as a fly or elephant if not karmically skilful.
'TWADDLE!' will suffice.
What's wrong with being an elephant? Or a fly. I've always wanted to fly. Plus no bills to pay. Yay!
I would go even further by assuming that the energy used to keep that universal system running was never created or born. It does change only from this to another form etc.
Like water becomes ice or wood coal etc.
Reincarnation is also based on the same principle of changing. What changes is here the body.
The new body has a new person with a new identity and ego. So it has an accompanying
Mind.
But this accompanying mind seen in Buddhism not as the ultimate mind (Mind of enlightenment) but as the relative mind, or the mind of illusion because it is not the real body.
So there are persons for sure who proclaim about this illusionary body that:
Well those are non Buddhist visions.
So we can have sometimes Buddhist and non Buddhist visions here.
Best wishes
KY
"You" are of the same nature too. Being subject to birth, aging, sickness and death. Composed of earth, water, fire, wind, consciousness and space.
At least "you" get to swim.
The future is just a dream while the past is just a memory. Talking of rebirth or reincarnation, which version (the schoolboy, young mother or old man) if any gets reborn.
If anatta is fully understood such question shouldn't arise.
> Yes the line meant by me would suggest that if i meditate i do not use my conciousness which would mean i do not use object and subject as meditation. And that is my line between meditation and meditation. I do not mean for sure a drawn line.
This line ,eams this difference.
Ego is no story it is daily reality of a person who has a mind and conciousness.
Brains are not mind. Besides that there are persons who can live with 50 % of their brains perfect. Well if the brains die for 50% the person would here been gone for 50% ?
The story does not die with the death of the brains.
_Well this is not a belief, we can all cheque in our meditations we do. Further do we have in our tradition people who can go through the state of death and come back.
Well these people have so their stories about the other shore and we believe these people.
_
The future does not exist, so the past. We live always in the actual situation.
The 3 times are as much illusion as is the actual body and its mind who can think and remember.
__If there would be no person who is doing _all this karma then there is no collector,
So then there are no deeds of that person, that would mean the person does not exist , impossible.
There is no person who make choices ? That is impossible for John.
What eyes do you prefer?
Best wishes KY_
All is illusion if anatta is realised.
All is not illusion if seen not with these eyes.
That is what separates samsara from nirvana. Why worry about rebirth if freedom from "death" can be realised?
"Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html
“Open are the doors to the Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction.”
―Buddha
Do you mean The Six Bardos in Tibetan Buddhism? "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Soygal Rinpoche covers it extensively. I own it but must confess haven't made much of a dent in it. It's on mu must read list for this year.
_ /|\ _
_Tashi delek DC;
Yes i mean here the 4 or 6 Bardos we can meet.
We can get enlightened in the Bardo State of dying, IF we did our/ some practice.
This is not so well-known in the other Buddhist Traditions. There are persons who did travel through all of these States and did give to us some good advice.
Bardo States in the dying process are states, which are never experienced by the the normal daily functioning mind of karma.
Only with special meditation exercises etc. one can attain the experience of death states. So it is up to us to do these practices as preparation for our dying process which will come and is there one day.
Best wishes
KY._
The extensive treatment of Bardo teachings would deal with :
the Bardo of the sanctuary of birth (skye gnas kyi bar do), i.e., the bardo period of our incarnation in a given birth, which lasts from the time of the conception down to the beginning of the Bardo of the Time of Death (no. 4 below),
the Bardo of dream (rmi lam gyi bar do) which actually belongs to the first Bardo above,
the Bardo of Samadhi (ting 'dzin gyi bar do) which also belongs to the first Bardo and lasts as long as one remains in the state of samadhi,
the Bardo of the Time of Death (Chi' kha'i bar do) which starts when the irreversible circumstances leading to death have started their action, down to the disconnexion of the body and the mind,
the Bardo of the Primordially Pure Absolute Body (ka dag bon sku'i bar do), which is the direct experience of the natural, however it cannot be experienced by people who have not totally stabilized their Trekchö,
the Bardo of the Clear-Light of Reality (bon nyid 'od gsal gyi bar do) which can only be witnessed by adepts who have had an experience of Thögel practice up to at least the 2nd part of the Second Vision of Thogel,
the Bardo of Becoming (srid pa'i bar do) during which one faces karmic retributions and is led to another rebirth.
The classification in 4 Bardos deals with no. 1, 4, 6 and 7. The classification in 6 Bardos deals with all except no. 5.
Somebody asked the zen master that once. He said "I don't know, I haven't died yet. Do you want some tea?"
We die every minute and are closer to death. The relative death process.
The death (process) as such, does not exist for the ultimate Mind of Enlightenment.
The Zen Master could be Enlightened if he did experience that his Mind of Enlightenment is eternal.
KY
So where does it go then?
It does not go it dwells in Nature.
So the ultimate Mind is "out there" waiting to be accessed? That sounds a bit Advaita.
"The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true primordial state of every individual and not to any transcendent reality."
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Unless the "transcendent reality" is the very "primordial state" to begin with.
I'm not sure what we're talking about, exactly, here; what is meant by "Ultimate Mind"? Would that be Buddhanature? If so, then it's within us to be accessed.
Ultimate Mind would be that what is already perfect and Buddha Nature would be the personal seed of Enlightenment (Bodhi Citta) which has to be developed (by methods)
So we have the related ultimate and relative truth(s).
It helps to realise as well there are no "things" out there.
Thing is = a thought.
Things who are outside can obstruct our Natural State are all dualisms.
Dualisms are thoughts and related objects.
So they are existing as real for the dualistic mind of thoughts and form the very reason for not experiencing our perfect Natural State.
Bodhicitta has to be developed on the relative level , on the absolute level Bodhi citta has to be experienced spontaneously.
Here Bodhi citta is seen as perfect State and is Bodhicitta. Literal taken.
KY.
Reincarnation is based upon experience in the after death State.
That is for the most not possible until they die. So therefore what one does not know or can experience does not exist. Or one can believe, reincarnations happens at once after dying.
The way to get success in those in between Sates (after death), that is also know in the process of dying and explained in the Tibetan Book of the dying.
There are in Tibet persons (Delogs), who can go in those in between States and return to bring us some messages.Those messages and some Bardo text can be very useful as preparation for the dying process.
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Delog:_Journey_to_Realms_beyond_Death
KY
Until you drop a "brick" on your "foot" anyway.