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I've been thinking...Well sort of....
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Now this might not make any sense, but I'll give it a go anyway....
It's funny how memory is used to describe the 'memory' of the experience had....In other words one can never describe the experience one is having in the 'here & now' .... one can only describe experience in past tense (that which has gone before)...Re-living the past so to speak...So it would seem that everything ones thinks says or does, is in a sense always in the past....
"Everything evolves, will come to mean nothing is true" ~Nietzsche~
Just messing messed with your minds 
3
Comments
So, you've been thinking... that's usually where my problems start too.
But on to the post itself...
It is a good point. I am reminded of the person who shows you a picture of themselves and says, "This is a picture of me when I was younger" as if there are other options.
Too, speaking of memory, I can have a memory of a time I was joyful and feel joy; recall a memory of feeling sad and feel the sadness again...but I can recall a memory of a vicious migraine - and can't feel the pain. I realize it is the difference between emotions and physical but I've always found that to be significant.
And that thing about not remembering the pain felt - is weird to think how painful something can be and then it's just gone and not only that, but how does science explain this? Do they? Have they?
I'd like to revisit Nietzsche's saying and see what the context was.
[and stop messing with our minds, @Shoshin!]
Another interesting point is that is memory actually true?
In the police as quickly as we could we would separate witnesses to give an account of what happened.
Because if they were discussing what happened the memory of the incident shifts. So the account of what happened actually shifts as witnesses discuss it.
Another example is when have a conversation with someone, later on all we remember is key words that were said and not the whole situation.
Memory is sketchy at best. Always shifting and changing. Don't trust that what you remember to have happened actually happened the way you remember. Our brains only pick out what we consider important and leave out the trivial.
Plus the past doesn't actually exist.
You cannot relive the past because it will take too much time to actually relive them. The "past" flashes by in a blink as it were in the form of memory.
Going, going, gone.
That is seeing things as they are.
Your memory is only a memory of the last time you remembered anything; your memory is not the memory of the event itself. That's why things get sketchy. It's also why sometimes we either remember things slightly differently, or someone says "No, I don't remember THAT happening; as I recall, it was ME who fell off the donkey....."
The here and now is kind of vague.
Now is all encompassing and there are no events happening in the past.
Some theorise that it still does. See here for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing_block_universe
And this is also an article of interest, perhaps:
@SpinyNorman interesting, I do try and base this stuff on actual experience though. Because that's where the truth is.
The past isn't what we think it is, that's for sure.
Neither is the Present....
[lobster faints]
We iz in matrix?
Let me out!
Or not, as the case may be.
No, your experience is YOUR truth. Your 'truth' may not be the same as the next person's.
You must stop trying to convince everyone that your way is the right way and that everyone else is either wrong, or hasn't got there yet.
My truth is not the same as the next person? If I pushed you into a swimming pool, you will get wet. That's the kind of truth I'm talking about.
-
Anybody want to argue with this lol? There's a pool down the road from where I live
I think you are exaggerating a bit, that's not my intention at all. I never once said people haven't got "there?" Whatever that means. And I'm not trying to convince people of anything, you share your points so do I. That's the beauty, it would be boring if we all agreed.
Sometimes what I refer to challenges someone's belief structure, then they get upset or defensive. It's not my intention to do this.
It's like if we were discussing God, and I said "have you actually experienced god?" This line of inquiry challenges our beliefs,
If I said "fire doesn't burn" you would just laugh. You don't believe it burns, you know it. See what I mean?
Some people are ok with their beliefs being put on the line, some people cling dearly to their beliefs. I think that may be what you are doing.
but most people won't because our belief structure starts to crumble.
If I say there is no separation between "you" and the "apple" you believe you are looking at. I'm not trying to convince you, god no! But if you care to investigate...
No, that's a verifiable fact. I'm not talking about 'that' kind of 'Truth' and you know it...
You could have fooled me...
That's not the way your posts come across, all too often...
Well then don't challenge them. Live and let live...
Apples and oranges.
Those are different truths; one is demonstrable and tangible, the other isn't...
You can't use one as an example for the other.
Tangible truths are a shareable experience. Personal truth, through siritual experience, is another matter entirely.
No, what I'm doing is tapping you on the shoulder and having a friendly word.
Currently, what I do or do not believe is not the issue here.
I understand what you say.
Just don't presume that what you have fathomed as 'true' for yourself, is always true for someone else.
Make that distinction, make that allowance and don't push the point.
That would be cool.
Memory is fascinating. My sister and I have drastically differing memories of the same event. Some things she insist happened I have no memory of whatsoever, or mine is so different it's hardly reconizeable as the same. We can create memories that never happened by believing stories and lies we create. Then we cease being able to tell the difference eventually. My sister has always dealt with depression, and had a difficult and troubled childhood due to it. I, on the other hand, had a pretty easy childhood, I was overall a joyful and happy kid. The identical experiences were seen through such different lenses that we can hardly tell they were the same. It still happens today, and she still deals with depression and living on an emotional rollercoaster. We can be in the midst of a moment, and what I see is vastly different than what she sees because of where we are looking at it from. It is quite difficult.
The truth becomes pretty tricky. I certainly can't tell her what she felt and experienced wasn't false. Perhaps it is what I experienced is false. Or, that there is no truth that we can access because all of those causes and conditions cause us to perceive even something simple, as quite different from how someone else perceives it. On some level, there is a reality/truth that happened without our judgements. But I think it is pretty hard to access it from a human perspective and I think that is part of being awakened is being able to do that consistently.
@ federica the op writes a question, I then respond. Often someone disagrees with what I've said and wants to question it. So we go into a discussion over it, isn't that the nature of forums?
If someone like you doesn't want to engage the discussion, they don't have to?
The thing that I'm most passionate about is a tangible truth, something that can be seen right here and now. Which is why when someone says no it's not, i reply.
But I don't do so in a way in any attempt to upset anybody.
The problem is that what I'm pointing out challenges beliefs. Beliefs are things we take to be true yet we are never quiet sure. Which is why we don't like people bringing these into the lime light and
I only do this indirectly by extension.
You jumped on my conversation with spiny and had a go at me when I was referring to past and memory, not even about this. I was saying I tend to stick to the tangible when trying to understand truth from imagination. ?
Me spiny and ourself (David) have discussed this topic to it's end over a couple of threads. I learnt heaps from the discussions and enjoyed the opportunity.
, it's hard to convey in words so I try.
Sure it's not always rose quartz but this is the nature of these topics. If they didn't want to reply to me they could simply scroll on.
I've never had this conservation over this topic with you and that's fine but please don't tell me what my intentions are.
I've always meant well and just want to share something incredible.
If it doesn't resonate, so be it
I haven't pestered spiny or ourself about it again, because we can see it was futile in the end. But never the less fun to discuss.
Me and you have never discussed this before, you just say it's all a highfalutin buddhist concept and pointless to talk about .
And that's your opinion, great.
But... I wasn't even referring to this at all when talking to spiny. It was in regards to past and memory. So I really feel your comments are uncalled for. Save it for an Anatta thread lol. Then I would happily discuss this non truth with you. I can't actually push you into this pool but you can get in but only if you want to.
Some people do slip and fall in though lol.
It is always a construct based on karma and dependent origination. There is also 'perception without processing', which means 'being in the moment' or mindfulness. Such present moment perception as @federica pointed out is still a construction BUT in some ways closer to an aware awakening.
@how often talks about not processing, or allowing unimpeded awareness. Ultimately such awareness is pure being. That Pure Being is therefore described as empty of form or formation of ideas, awareness of being something etc. In this sense it is unconditioned or unborn.
Being awake means being able to differentiate between imperfect form (eg. lobster) and emptiness (Buddha/awakening).
As the empty dharmakaya assures us: 'Emptiness is form and form is emptiness'.
@karasti is on the right middle way track when describing it as a simplifying. We don't have to be clever to be awake. Phew!
We have to unravel and unfold the knots and tightness that are holding us in ignorance and formations ferment ...
There really iz plan, (8 fold path for details) ...
-Along the same lines, there is an actual lag between experiencing and processing sensory input, so in a real sense, we are living in the past...
@Earthninja , My final word on thread. Pay attention -
Quit shoving a boulder that has no intention of budging.
Thanks.
I haven't read much of Nietzsche's work ( in fact, I haven't read much in the way of philosophy full stop-in other words I’m not a scholar
) however I’ve scanned through some of his stuff that had tickled my fancy and I have a copy of Penquin Classics "A Nietzsche Reader" (By R.J. Hollingdale) of which the intro talks about the following
**When Nietzsche quoted this paradoxical formulation “Everything evolves will come to mean nothing is true!” His perception was that Western man was facing a radical change in his relationship with truth... He came to realise that metaphysical, religious, moral, and rational truths which were formerly both backbone and substance of Western tradition, were in fact errors...The pretension of such truths to absoluteness were being undercut by the evolutionism of Hegel and Darwin ..If everything evolves then "truths" too evolves, so that if truth is synonymous with absolute truth true for ll time and for everybody, a loss of belief in the truth of truth is on the way..."Everything evolves will come to mean nothing is true!" and to this paradoxical formulation Nietzsche proposes to say "The truth is a matter of perspective!"
” It remains to the end an experiment in reorientating oneself within a world of total uncertainty!”
I'll just walk around the boulder - the Dao XD
Yes... sadly, there's no getting around this one.
Well I'm not sure what I'm being charged with so if you could be specific that would be great.
For the most part it would seem we are but habitual behaviour patterns
Habit Memory
"Habit memory is the type of memory formed when information is stored unconsciously. It is achieved through repetition and trial-and-error learning. Associations between certain stimuli and responses are formed very slowly over the course of several repetitions. Habit memory is very organized and rigid. Generally, very similar circumstances have to be recreated in order for a person to be able to access information stored in habit memory. Unlike other types of memory, habit memory happens automatically without deliberate effort. This is because habit memory involves very specific areas of the brain, namely, the striatum and the basal ganglia. These structures are not the ones used by other memory systems."
Mama! They've been thinking again!
You can look at Right Effort as replacing bad habits with good ones.
I would like to think that I won't make a habit of it, but, it's one of those things I do without thinking .... Bugger ! I think I've just done it again
True @SpinyNorman ....
"When you changes the way you looks at things, the things you look at change"
The Dharma in a nutshell
I believe our memories are developed by our perceptions, which we should try not to cling or attach to as me, mine, or I.
My thoughts exactly.
I am thinking less and less lately.
Threads such as these remind me of those college philosophical discussions involving words such as "semiology," "ontology," "etimology" thrown in and I can only be too thankful to Zen masters for simplifying the equation so much for us...
I can never, and I mean never ever, put that stuff back in my mouth, least of all back in my head, ever again...