a vaguely-expressed question
genkaku
Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
I know that there are others here who are surely better-Buddhism-read than I am -- and whose minds are less Swiss-cheesey than my own -- so here is a wispy question that occurred to me today:
As I recollect poorly my own readings in the past (primarily Zen Buddhism), it seems to me that there were a number of well-respected teachers who expressed the hope that they might at last run into a student who would call their bluff, slap their face, kick their ass or in some other overt way stop groveling around the 'teacher's' skirts. Do I remember their names? No I don't ... I told you: Swiss Cheese Mind is my middle name.
But even if I cannot remember their names, I also have a hard time thinking I made all this up. And if my impoverished recollection is close to being correct, then my question is: 1. Why would anyone to whom a venerable understanding was attributed make such a wish and 2. what truth, if any, were they hoping such action might illuminate?
Apologies for my lack of specificity, but I hope others here may help fill in my vagueness.
Comments
Even teachers have stuff to learn.
Hm, well, I think they laid down a challenge, because they obviously have established themselves as an authority of sorts and they need someone to challenge them, to keep them on their toes.
@genkaku, it sounds like you are describing Zen Dharma combat, if so, you are remembering correctly...
Every teacher I'm sure wants to see their student graduate and there is no one way to teach or impart ideas - this may be a sign that they're ready to strike out on their own. I mentor and take the same delight if and when I'm put in my place - whether wrong or right, I like to see that my word is not the law but just a guide to taking responsibility - freedom to create perhaps.
Who can you rely on if you can't rely on yourself?
@genkaku
I've heard this story repeated more often by students, than by teachers.
But to respond with a vagueness of my own...
The teachers most tenacious koan to address is how to transcend the narcotic elixir of their own students faith & devotion. Fame & gain seems to seductively bewilder teachers as much as the students or anyone else.
So...
My hat's off to anyone, teacher or student, who's practice transcends any part of the
"self verses other" equation.
Exactly so.
There is for the awake as well as the ignorant depths of knowing. The difference is one of opening the potential for greater wisdom, if one is open to the independence from predetermined or preconceived roles.
Part of the reason to return to the near shore, back to the market place, is to be free of the labeling criteria. Not so easy in modern circles ...
There is an old story of a Sufi Bodhi whose teacher proclaimed the student was ready to teach and the teacher would now dissapear and resume his role as a wandering dervish. At the teachers recommendation many flocked to the teaching circuit of student now master.
The new teacher answered questions and clarified for his new circle of followers. The devoted new students began their course of instruction.
One day the progress and earnest endeavour was interrupted by increasingly meaningless and ignorant questions from a nomad. As the new master tried to answer this difficult students questions, the nomads face became familiar and he saw the face of his former mentor.
The thought that came to my mind was the problem that really beautiful people can face. Others are intimidated by their looks and will often overlook mistakes or not challenge them on things in order to please them or win approval. Thus over time they don't face the challenges and difficulties that develop skill or a realistic understanding of the world.
I guess that is a way of saying that if everyone only grovels and submits to the teacher they could grow soft and complacent and miss opportunities to learn and grow.
So true. A lot of it is often complicity in snoozing technique. The assumption that every awake individual can or does teach in an overt way is an expectation.
The awake teach (if they do) independently of ascribed roles. So how do we find these Pratyekabuddha?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddha
Do we find an overt teacher and ask them where the enlightened hang out ...
@Lobster
Do we find an overt teacher and ask them where the enlightened hang out?
or...
One could also allow ones meditation to stand in for both.
The Japanese Zeniths sometimes seem to have a cultural inclination for violence. I am happy to send them ass kickers. However that is just ignorance. Such questions are perhaps kindly addressed to 'ask a teacher' section at http://www.zenforuminternational.org or similar ass kickin' meets.
Personally I prefer the company of the enlightened but as they are self contained, company is not a requirement ...
Yes indeed.
Formal sitting, mindfulness, physical meditation such as prostrations, walking, tea making, flower arranging, chanting, yoga or tai chi, sila (meditation on action) and meditation/study of the wise and avoiding our ignorance, all have a habit of enabling our inner teacher IMO ...
@lobster ... the above is one of the central reasons I left that bulletin board
I used to be a member too. Until I realised that they'd got their heads so far up their own asses, they had totally convinced themselves that daylight was brown-coloured.....
@federica ....
In the Mahayana tradition that I sometimes try to uphold, we go to the dark regions to provide light for the interior benefits ...
Never underestimate the power of methane powered torches ...