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Magic Buddhism today

Read an interesting article today about a fascinating popular trend in Thailand for women to acquire lucky dolls that are then blessed by the Buddhist monk and treated as real children...in order to bring luck. http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/lucky-or-chucky-thai-spirit-dolls-delight-and-disturb/

It reminds me that historically Buddhism and Buddhist monks have always included magical rituals. The article has an attitude that it's something unique and even claims Thai society is in some way more superstitious than we "civilized" people. The article quotes one monk who hates these lucky dolls and would cuss at the people bringing them for blessings, and another who goes along with it. I think all things considered, the monk who shows compassion is acting more in the Buddhist spirit, even if the rituals are nonsense.

In one of the archeology websites, they show an early monk's reference book in Tibet that includes, along with Buddhist sutras, directions for rituals such as how to bring rain by making a fake frog out of dough, and chanting the right spells over it. People seeking miracles, favors from Buddha and guardian spirits and luck in their lives have always demanded help from Buddha and his monks.

And I had to finally ask myself, what's the difference between a lucky blessed doll and me lighting a candle at my altar? It makes me feel better. I do it in special occasions, such as a death or someone sick. Does anyone here also have magical rituals that make them feel better?

JulesvincentZendoLord84David
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Comments

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2016

    A candle is, and always has been a religious symbol of light (in both in the literal and figurative sense). A candle is a way of helping the devotee focus their mind, and is a physical, tangible reminder of the sacredness of that space, that altar, that moment of devotion.

    The Buddha was enLightened: Jesus referred to himself as 'The Light of the World'.

    Dolls are representations of a superstitious desire. People have long treated them as 'babies' as well as sticking pins into them as a symbolic gesture of revenge.

    Candles are votive.
    Dolls are 'voodoo.'

    Cinorjer
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    Using dolls as representations of real people to either bring luck, or stick pins in a la voodoo, is a step up from real live human sacrifices, but if I were a monk and if someone brought me a doll for blessing, I suppose I would grin and bear it.

    CinorjerNirvanamerx
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited February 2016

    It doesn't seem terribly different to me than blessing ceremonies with katak scarves. As with any dharma item, we are asked to care for them respectfully. Granted, not as a baby, but with the idea of the same level of care (generally speaking).

    If you read less...instigating...articles on them, it explains it in a better way. Their economy is struggling horribly and people are suffering as a result. They are clinging to the dolls as a way to hope to encourage success and betterment of their financial situation. It is like someone in China clinging to their feng shui for the same reason. Superstitious and a bit odd (many things Asian-based are very weird to me, especially Japanese school girl culture and anime. Just don't get it) but is it hurting someone? They are desperate people looking for some way out of their situation. Is this the right way to go about it? Probably not. But neither is drinking beer every day after work but plenty of people do that and no one thinks otherwise. We all deal with hard times different. At least they aren't hurting anyone.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-thailand-dolls-idUSKCN0V50II

    Also, I know more than one single empty nest mom who eventually gets dolls that they treat as babies. Have even known a couple who take them shopping and out to eat, and have nurseries for them. People cope in odd ways sometimes.

    Cinorjersilvermerxpommesetoranges
  • rohitrohit Maharrashtra Veteran

    Well, I have studied and implemented Indian kundali astrology and found it very true. I do wear gems which suits me as per birth chart.

    Cinorjer
  • howhow Veteran
    edited February 2016

    @Cinorjer

    From the view from my Zafu....

    The less magic that one subscribes to within a Buddhist practice, the less holidays that one is likely to take off from the Buddha's path towards suffering's cessation.

    Most often defended with some version of the burning house teaching analogy.

    But then again for me, rite and ritual, often seems no less magic bound.

    Cinorjerlobstersilver
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran

    Interesting article. I agree with Natsuda and would add that if it keeps people out of trouble, it could be a good thing for them. People are what they are and love can manifest in many ways. Indeed, one could argue that devotion to a doll might help ground a person in a more loving and kind way of life.

    I really don't see the current Thai phenomenon having anything to do with Voodoo.

    Cinorjer
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited February 2016

    I know as a skeptic and one who has no patience for supernatural beliefs, it's hard sometimes to remind myself of the emotional need that ritual and magical beliefs fill for people. The problem is the dark side. As @silver points out, magical beliefs can also cause suffering. But I suppose everything that makes us human has a dark side.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    I think about rites and rituals often, too. But I wonder how much of it is people determining they are magic and "worth" more than they are rather than using them as a tool to realize they can develop qualities in themselves? Even prayer-so many think of it as magic, praying to something else to solve a problem. When in my view it would be better to use it as a way to develop the things in yourself needed to solve the problem. I hated prostrations. They are so abnormal in so many ways in our culture, and it felt all kinds of wrong at first. But when I realized the point has nothing to do with bowing down to teachers or Buddha but rather developing humility in myself and using a physical practice to do so, then my view of it changed. I think a lot of rituals really are better thought of that way, but people tend not to. But maybe it's just me thinking my way is the best way, LOL.

    If you misuse anything, it can lead you astray. But things can be practiced without having that affect, too. Quite the opposite. People have to let go of the outcome and focus more on the journey of what they are developing instead.

    CinorjerRuddyDuck9
  • I found a fascinating article yesterday that discussed the pre-Buddhist traditions in Tibet, which the author divided between a nature-spirit tradition, and a later shamanic tradition that came from elsewhere in Inner Asia. He said Buddhism never would have been accepted in Tibet if it hadn't adapted to and incorporated elements of these earlier traditions. In fact, he pointed out that Padmasambhava, who is credited with establishing Buddhism in Tibet, was a sorcerer himself, so he fit in with the shamanic values of the local people. In contrast, Santarakshita, who first brought Buddhism to Tibet, but a very academic/intellectual version of it, failed miserably in his proselytizing and teaching, telling the king that the populace would never accept this type of Buddhism. He recommended his cousin, Padmasambhava, instead.

    Elsewhere I've read that when Tibetan monks undertook the task of spreading Buddhism in Mongolia, they planned in advance to incorporate the local shamanic traditions, taking on the role of shamans and healers themselves, knowing full well that this was a corruption of Buddhism. But they believed that the greater good was in spreading the Dharma, even in a corrupted form. Remember that "greater good" principle in the Mahayana tradition? Breaking a precept is ok if a greater good is served. So this is what guided their actions. The end justifies the means, lol.

    silverCinorjer
  • @Dakini said:
    I found a fascinating article yesterday that discussed the pre-Buddhist traditions in Tibet, which the author divided between a nature-spirit tradition, and a later shamanic tradition that came from elsewhere in Inner Asia. He said Buddhism never would have been accepted in Tibet if it hadn't adapted to and incorporated elements of these earlier traditions.

    Yes, and as I understand it there was a mingling with the indigenous Bon religion in Tibet. It would seem that Buddhism has adapted to many different cultures since it's inception, now it is adapting to the materialism of western culture.

    Cinorjerrohitkarastipommesetoranges
  • @Cinorjer said:
    I know as a skeptic and one who has no patience for supernatural beliefs, it's hard sometimes to remind myself of the emotional need that ritual and magical beliefs fill for people.

    :) Indeed.

    There may be an emotional need but do we require an emotional attachment? Are magical dharmas such as chanting for goals, possession by visualised personifications of Buddhist ideals or entering post death Purelands through dedicated mantras, superior to sorcery, voodoo or superstition?

    Buddhas magical status and teachings can seem no different to 'my little pony' dharma. A sort of fantasy that delays, avoids and ultimately rejects truth as unskilful.

    Are we on the path to awakening or an improved dream state? B)

    silverhowCinorjermerx
  • The only magic that exists come from within.

    lobstermerxRuddyDuck9
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited February 2016

    @namarupa said:
    The only magic that exists come from within.

    B)
    Expecto Patronum
    Iz I muggle?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic

    Cinorjer
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran

    @namarupa said:
    The only magic that exists come from within.

    I suspect that if magic were uni-directional it wouldn't be magical.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited February 2016

    @how said:
    Guatama's rejection of the rites and rituals offered to the masses by his contemporaries, was part of the reason that he searched for the new path that he did.

    Indeed.
    Did the man charmers and maras take over again. Tsk, tsk.
    New path, old teaching. Same people.

    While there is no doubt that an emotional need is at issue here.
    I just think that appeasing it without also addressing the causes of it's suffering, is actually just what the Buddha ultimately rejected.

    Yes indeedy.

    Nobody wants the truth.
    We would have to give up the magical dream dharma ... that was never part of the plan ... oh wait ...

    That is the plan. B)

    and @genkaku says in part:
    This phenomenon, assuming anyone buys into it, is not evil and should not be dismissed. Who knows what object or activity will prove to be transformative? Perhaps the transformation will materialize. Perhaps not. But in the end, it is the transformation that is important

    Transformation is possible. 84 000 dharmas (a conservative estimate IMO) exist. However most people just want an easy life to cope with Dukkha. Something magical preferbly. Without having to change behaviour, opinions or proclivities perhaps ...

    ... so something for the magical dream team ... o:)
    http://www.extibetanbuddhist.com

    howrohitWalkerCinorjer
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited February 2016

    The Thai Buddhist temple I regularly visit has many dolls/statues/action figures of Hindu deities in the temple grounds as Thailand used to be Hindu before Buddhism. The Thai laity also put out dead fish, money and all kinds of chachke/bling/junk in order to attract good fortune or dispel evil.

    It is much the same in local Christian graveyards, people bring flowers/candles/plastic windmills for the dead etc.

    Cultural ritual preferences around life and death vary.

    Tantra is based around magic ritual. Rasayana (Buddhist Alchemy - one of my hobbies) may be a highly symbolic expression of inner processes. Does it make me feel better? Sure.

    Maybe I will get a new Buddha Doll and feel ritualistically superior in some not so magical way ...

    Having taken part in rituals to calm river serpents, fire rituals, calling up angels etc I find them interesting. Not sure what the nagas or angelic Boddhisatvas think ...

    Cinorjer
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I can't get over how many christmas wreaths were laid on graves at Christmas time, in our local cemetery. For goodness' sake, some of the 'occupants' had been dead for a decade or more...! How's about that for 'clinging to ritual'...?!

    karastiCinorjer
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    @Cinorjer said:
    And I had to finally ask myself, what's the difference between a lucky blessed doll and me lighting a candle at my altar? It makes me feel better. I do it in special occasions, such as a death or someone sick. Does anyone here also have magical rituals that make them feel better?

    I would say the difference is that there's no magic involved in lighting candles. :)

    lobsterCinorjer
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited February 2016

    There is no magic in the dolls, either. It is just symbolic for most people. Like anything, there are some who will take it farther. It is not much different than any blessing ceremony at major life milestones. Birthday cakes are much the same thing (don't forget to blow out that last candle or either your wish won't come true, or you'll have an girlfriend you don't know about). So are wedding blessings. No different than baseball stars who wear the same socks for the playoffs or always eat skittles before a football game (but perhaps avoid a certain color out of bad luck fears). Why are we so quick to call other cultures' rituals weird magic but we are fully accepting of our own? We understand ours, so we are ok with them. We don't understand Thai culture, so clearly that is a problem with their weird magic rather than our lack of understanding.

    I'd be interested in @vinlyn or @ThailandTom have seen any of this. Perhaps they would be able to offer insight.

    In any case, even if they want to call it magic, it doesn't mean it is the same as we think about it. Seems to me another instance of us clinging to our culture and rituals and habits while rejecting others as silly. Some of our cultural things border on the most silly of them all. We just like to compare and contrast so we can arrive at a conclusion that since our rituals aren't nearly so silly as an angel doll ritual, we are still doing ok. Like when you watch Hoarders and think "Whew, I'm no rockstar housewife but at least my house doesn't look like THAT."

    @lobster the lady on that webpage you linked needs to settle down. Religions don't do anything. People who misinterpret and live out of their ignorance and delusions do. And her blaming Trungpa for Canada electing Trudeau? She clearly is a conservative woman who wants nothing to do with emerging political upheaval. She talks with disdain about "confusing gender-fluid times" and other nonsense. I don't trust a word she says, she should go meditate and stop ranting.

    personlobster
  • @karasti said:

    Like when you watch Hoarders and think "Whew, I'm no rockstar housewife but at least my house doesn't look like THAT."

    Heh. Or in my case, "Yes, my basement looks like that, but at least I have enough dignity not to invite network cameras in to show the world I'm a slob."

    karastiKundo
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    @Cinorjer we won't talk about our attic. We just kind of pretend it doesn't exist.

    CinorjerShoshinmerx
  • @seeker242 said:

    @Cinorjer said:
    And I had to finally ask myself, what's the difference between a lucky blessed doll and me lighting a candle at my altar? It makes me feel better. I do it in special occasions, such as a death or someone sick. Does anyone here also have magical rituals that make them feel better?

    I would say the difference is that there's no magic involved in lighting candles. :)

    Hm... then why do we do it? This wanders into the "why do we chant" or "why do we bow" question. In Korean Zen, much is made of people who do 108 prostration a day. Why 108? Why not 100 or 110? There is something magical about that number of 108 in our minds, in spite of vague attempts at justifying it logically.

    Magical thinking.

    karasti
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think 'Merica! Veteran

    Is it relevant at all the level of magical thinking involved or is any amount an illogical corruption of reason. Like is believing Jesus appeared on your toast the same as believing in life after death?

    Cinorjer
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited February 2016

    Good question @person
    I would suggest that the evidence for miraculous toast or confirmation that after toasting/cremation a bit of butter-self slips miraculously through, is open to debate ...

    And now back to ordinary toasting

    Cinorjer
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited February 2016

    @Cinorjer said:

    @seeker242 said:

    @Cinorjer said:
    And I had to finally ask myself, what's the difference between a lucky blessed doll and me lighting a candle at my altar? It makes me feel better. I do it in special occasions, such as a death or someone sick. Does anyone here also have magical rituals that make them feel better?

    I would say the difference is that there's no magic involved in lighting candles. :)

    Hm... then why do we do it? This wanders into the "why do we chant" or "why do we bow" question. In Korean Zen, much is made of people who do 108 prostration a day. Why 108? Why not 100 or 110? There is something magical about that number of 108 in our minds, in spite of vague attempts at justifying it logically.

    Magical thinking.

    It's 108 because that number is a multiple of 3 or 9 (which is 3x3). It's a numerological thing, I forget the exact formula, but 3 was a sacred number to ancient Indo-Europeans. Numerology figures significantly in Buddhism. And chanting is about magic, too; the mantras evolved out of spells, and chanting mantras was/is believed to bring the chanter Good Things, Blessings, prayers come true, and such.

    I've always wondered about the candle-lighting tradition, because it spans religions. I've heard that it's believed (this may be from the Eastern Orthodox tradition, not sure) that the candle opens a window to souls on the Other Side, or something. And why do Orthodox Christians keep a candle burning all day in front of an icon up high in a corner just below the ceiling? I think there are/were magical beliefs associated with candles. Just because we're out of touch with those Old World beliefs doesn't mean they didn't exist, nor have they been forgotten by others.

    CinorjerKundokarastimerx
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited February 2016

    I'm under the impression that a lot of ritual stuff is to help humble the self, loosening the ego's grip so to speak... "Self-Sacrificing Ritual" nothing magical per se, just practical means of taming the ego :)

    CinorjerKundomerx
  • The luk thep or child angels are but one of many superstitious beliefs in Thailand. They do no harm.

  • @Dakini said:

    @Cinorjer said:

    @seeker242 said:

    @Cinorjer said:
    And I had to finally ask myself, what's the difference between a lucky blessed doll and me lighting a candle at my altar? It makes me feel better. I do it in special occasions, such as a death or someone sick. Does anyone here also have magical rituals that make them feel better?

    I would say the difference is that there's no magic involved in lighting candles. :)

    Hm... then why do we do it? This wanders into the "why do we chant" or "why do we bow" question. In Korean Zen, much is made of people who do 108 prostration a day. Why 108? Why not 100 or 110? There is something magical about that number of 108 in our minds, in spite of vague attempts at justifying it logically.

    Magical thinking.

    It's 108 because that number is a multiple of 3 or 9 (which is 3x3). It's a numerological thing, I forget the exact formula, but 3 was a sacred number to ancient Indo-Europeans. Numerology figures significantly in Buddhism. And chanting is about magic, too; the mantras evolved out of spells, and chanting mantras was/is believed to bring the chanter Good Things, Blessings, prayers come true, and such.

    I've always wondered about the candle-lighting tradition, because it spans religions. I've heard that it's believed (this may be from the Eastern Orthodox tradition, not sure) that the candle opens a window to souls on the Other Side, or something. And why do Orthodox Christians keep a candle burning all day in front of an icon up high in a corner just below the ceiling? I think there are/were magical beliefs associated with candles. Just because we're out of touch with those Old World beliefs doesn't mean they didn't exist, nor have they been forgotten by others.

    You know, people started lighting candles at altars because that's all they had to light up a room. That and oil lamps. It was the most advanced technology of that day. Since candles and oil were precious things back then and that's all we had to light up the night, using them up just to illuminate a statue or painting behind an altar was a form of sacrifice. It's the same reason people also left food offerings. Science and technology marched on but ritual being what it is, we refused to replace candles at our altars with little battery operated lamps. It would do the same thing but isn't as satisfying, is it?

    On a side note about technology, a friend I have is upset because they have to start their church service now by telling everyone to please turn off their cellphones and yet some people continue to text during the service or their cellphone rings at the worst moment. The pastor is apparently threatening to collect cellphones as people come in the door.

  • The first time I entered the Temple of the Tooth in Kandy Sl was one of those moments that seem to influence us long afterward. Crossing the portal was the beginning of a much larger journey that continues to this day. Signs of magical thinking? Yes. But a little more than that.

    Cinorjer
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Indeed, there are quite a few Pagan rituals that involve fire as representative of the sun, appreciating it's presence and welcoming it's return at solstices especially. I'm sure it is represented in pretty much all believe systems, as it is a source of life, same as water, air and minerals.

    CinorjerDakini
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    With all been said and done...Buddhism can be seen as magical (well the Dharma is) in how practice can change something in a person that the person might have never ever felt could be changed...

    I guess this could be seen as a miracle of sorts :)

    Cinorjerrohit
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    @Cinorjer said:

    @seeker242 said:

    @Cinorjer said:
    And I had to finally ask myself, what's the difference between a lucky blessed doll and me lighting a candle at my altar? It makes me feel better. I do it in special occasions, such as a death or someone sick. Does anyone here also have magical rituals that make them feel better?

    I would say the difference is that there's no magic involved in lighting candles. :)

    Hm... then why do we do it? This wanders into the "why do we chant" or "why do we bow" question. In Korean Zen, much is made of people who do 108 prostration a day. Why 108? Why not 100 or 110? There is something magical about that number of 108 in our minds, in spite of vague attempts at justifying it logically.

    Magical thinking.

    I would say because there is no reason not to light candles and no reason not to do 108 prostrations, unless you have knee problems :)

    We chant and bow to save all beings from suffering :) But, Zen Master Seung Sahn didn't teach anything magical about chanting, etc. He even said you could chant "coca-cola" and as long as it's for all beings, it would be the same as chanting the great dharani, LOL

    @Dakini said:

    It's 108 because that number is a multiple of 3 or 9 (which is 3x3).

    I read 108 is 108 because humans experience 108 feelings. Multiplying the sensations of smell, touch, taste, hearing, sight, and consciousness by whether they are painful, pleasant or neutral, and then again by whether these are internally generated or externally occurring, and yet again by the 3 realms (past, present and future). 6 × 3 × 2 × 3 = 108 :)

  • @Cinorjer said:
    Read an interesting article today about a fascinating popular trend in Thailand for women to acquire lucky dolls that are then blessed by the Buddhist monk and treated as real children...in order to bring luck. http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/lucky-or-chucky-thai-spirit-dolls-delight-and-disturb/

    It reminds me that historically Buddhism and Buddhist monks have always included magical rituals. The article has an attitude that it's something unique and even claims Thai society is in some way more superstitious than we "civilized" people. The article quotes one monk who hates these lucky dolls and would cuss at the people bringing them for blessings, and another who goes along with it. I think all things considered, the monk who shows compassion is acting more in the Buddhist spirit, even if the rituals are nonsense.

    In one of the archeology websites, they show an early monk's reference book in Tibet that includes, along with Buddhist sutras, directions for rituals such as how to bring rain by making a fake frog out of dough, and chanting the right spells over it. People seeking miracles, favors from Buddha and guardian spirits and luck in their lives have always demanded help from Buddha and his monks.

    And I had to finally ask myself, what's the difference between a lucky blessed doll and me lighting a candle at my altar? It makes me feel better. I do it in special occasions, such as a death or someone sick. Does anyone here also have magical rituals that make them feel better?

  • :p :p I find the burning string ritual wonderful for removing negative thoughts!!

    Cinorjer
  • I have a bunch of tiny rituals regarding my spiritual practise. As long as I don't get attached too much and it helps me to get in the buddha-nature-state-of-mind I don't see it as 'wrong' or 'right'

    Cinorjermerx
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited February 2016

    We chant and bow to save all beings from suffering :) But, Zen Master Seung Sahn didn't teach anything magical about chanting, etc. He even said you could chant "coca-cola" and as long as it's for all beings, it would be the same as chanting the great dharani, LOL

    LOL!

    Cinorjer
  • KO KA KO LAH KO KA KO LAH

    sweet ...

    May all semi sentient corporations benefit!

    Long Live Bodhi Pepsi

    WalkerCinorjerKundomerx
  • @Julesvincent said:> :p :p I find the burning string ritual wonderful for removing negative thoughts!!

    Cheaper than burning incense I suppose. ;)

    merx
  • @seeker242 said:
    I would say the difference is that there's no magic involved in lighting candles. :)

    That can be so.
    One of my daily magical rituals is sitting still for a while. I do this as a form of sympathetic magic for when I start 'really' meditating ... :3

    rohit
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @lobster said:
    KO KA KO LAH KO KA KO LAH

    sweet ...

    May all semi sentient corporations benefit!

    Long Live Bodhi Pepsi

    cough-COKE-cough

    ;)

  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    I'm not even a fan of the word "magic".

    If I don't understand the natural mechanics behind a happening I assume just that.

    personmerx
  • merxmerx estonia New
    edited February 2016

    I read the both article about the "lacky dolls" and my first reaction was it's comic or funny.
    It's funny to imagine the adult people with those dolls everywhere. Funny-in a good way, just it would be quite unfamiliar and strange for me. But if the dolls makes people happy, so the doll sellers, the munks and the doll awners then i have nothing against it. I don't believe any magic and my only rituals are washing ritual, eating ritual, cleaning ritual, walking ritual, cycling ritual etc. These are rituals, which makes me happy. I am agree with Namarupa who said that the only magic that exists come from within. Certainly this activity in Thailand wouldn't irritate me. The most important thing is when people are happy. <3

    Cinorjer
  • @Cinorjer said:
    Does anyone here also have magical rituals that make them feel better?

    I lighten the breath.

    Magic as I understand it is a form of concentration, in Dharma usually on an aspect of personal dukkha which we wish to effect.

    To be effectively enlightened we do not cling or tighten around magic, conjuring or holy ghosts ...

    Cinorjerkarasti
  • @David said:
    I'm not even a fan of the word "magic".

    If I don't understand the natural mechanics behind a happening I assume just that.

    I understand the aversion to 'magic', a lot of Buddhists are averse to the word 'mysticism'. They have the very pragmatic, 'natural mechanics' approach @David describes. The problem with associating with such terms is because it can encourage delusion and imbalance rather than skilful means.

    Kundo
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