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12 Qualities of an Enlightened Person

ShoshinShoshin No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-a-francis/enlightened-person_b_8018566.html

  1. Happiness

The enlightened person is happy and joyful. He has a cheerful disposition most of the time, and is willing to share that joy with others. He is always optimistic that all challenges have a resolution. Even though the resolution may not be the most desirable, he is confident that he is capable of being at peace with it.

  1. Peaceful and Serene

The enlightened person is peaceful and serene, because he is free of fear and other unwholesome emotions. He can see that the human condition reaches beyond this physical existence, so he no longer has a fear of the unknown. He is free of worry because he understands that freedom from suffering comes from within, and not from material possessions.

  1. Loving, Kind, and Compassionate

The enlightened person is loving, kind, and compassionate for two main reasons: 1) he genuinely cares about other people, regardless of whether they care about him, and 2) he knows that other people provide him with the spiritual nourishment he needs to continue growing. Therefore, he remains spiritually open to everyone.

  1. Not Self-Centered

The enlightened person is not self-centered, because he has lost the sense of a separate self. He can see the interconnected nature of our existence. To him, this is not just a concept, but a reality. He realizes that all physical manifestations (humans, animals, plants, etc.) depend on each other for their survival.

  1. Emotionally Stable

The enlightened person is emotionally stable because he no longer has an ego that needs validation for its existence. He is not hurt because there is no ego to hurt. He does not get angry because he is understanding and compassionate toward those who are not as far along the spiritual path.

  1. Patient and Understanding

The enlightened person is patient and understanding because he appreciates how our ignorance creates our own suffering. He understands the challenges of achieving enlightenment, so he doesn't condemn people for their missteps.

  1. Humble

The enlightened person is humble. Since he knows his place in the universe, he doesn't need validation from others. Therefore, he has nothing to prove to anyone, including himself. His humble nature allows him to be kind and gentle, and be open to everyone he encounters.

  1. Insightful and Open-Minded

The enlightened person is insightful and open-minded. He is able to see the world with great clarity, without attachment to preconceived ideas about people, places, and things. This enables him to observe the world without jumping to conclusions. Belief and intuition are replaced with clarity of vision and understanding.

  1. Inner Strength

The enlightened person has great inner strength. He has learned healthy ways of connecting with the sources of spiritual nourishment -- through healthy interactions with people, and within. He no longer has a need for the power struggles that most of us engage in.

  1. Leadership

The enlightened person is a leader. Having awakened to the point of understanding the nature of suffering, he realizes his duty to help other people find freedom from suffering. He leads by example, rather than control. People follow him because of who he is and what he stands for. They want to be more like him.

  1. Mindful of His Health

The enlightened person is mindful of his health -- physical, mental, and emotional. He knows that his mind, body, and spirit must be in harmony in order to maintain his spiritual condition. He has developed an understanding of physical and mental health, and doesn't blindly depend on others for his health. He is mindful of the nutrients and substances he puts into his body.

  1. Committed to His Spiritual Practice

The enlightened person never forgets how he achieved enlightenment. He is also aware that it takes continuous effort to remain that way. It takes a great deal of spiritual nourishment to help others along their path, so he's aware that he needs to replenish his spiritual strength on a daily basis. Otherwise, he'll lose his effectiveness as a spiritual messenger.


Well what do you reckon ?
Does it sum up what you feel is the qualities of an Enlightened Person ?

WalkerCinorjerpersonBunkspegembaranlightenBurkan
«1

Comments

  • FosdickFosdick in its eye are mirrored far off mountains Alaska, USA Veteran

    An excellent post, a timely post, and a great reality check for those times when we might feel tempted to be proud of our supposed accomplishments. Yeah, I think that sums it up pretty well.

    Referring back to the other thread though, where the question seemed to be how we, the great unwashed and unenlightened - um, present company excepted :o - can recognize an enlightened one, it seems clear that applying these criteria would require an enormous lot of time that might be better spent in actual practice.

    Shoshinkarasti
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited March 2016

    Someone once told me I had the PATIENCE of a saint......So one down 11 to go... "I" can't wait ! ...Oh Bugger !... PATIENCE Oh well...back to the drawing board :)

    FosdicklobsterkarastiKundo
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited March 2016

    Well what do you reckon ?
    Does it sum up what you feel is the qualities of an Enlightened Person?

    Still working on being un-enlightened ... Soon I might be human ... B)

    The enlightened in my experience exhibit, hide or in essence have the qualities/no qualities required. Nothing special. Nothing to get in a huff over ...

    Tee Hee ... ah well ... back to beginners class and drawing board for crustaceans ...

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Dear God... Grant me Patience - but fer Chrissakes, hurry up!

    lobsterShoshin
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I think the original post indicates we're all partially Enlightened, some of the time.

    The trick is....

    Well, I don't need to tell you what the trick is, do I?

    Cinorjer
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    It always marvels me to see how easily anyone might ascribe "enlightenment" and its supposed characteristics to someone else.

    Seriously ... who says so and in what world does saying so make it so? Doesn't Buddhism hold out the promise of eradicating doubt rather than increasing its power?

    This is worse than Donald Trump putting himself forward as a great unifier.

    silver
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited March 2016

    ^^^ tee hee

    Exactly so.
    The list is limited and limiting. Sorry guys. :p

    The enlightened are outside of the writers knowing.

    For example:

    Insightful and Open-Minded
    The enlightened person is insightful and open-minded. He is able to see the world with great clarity, without attachment to preconceived ideas about people, places, and things. This enables him to observe the world without jumping to conclusions. Belief and intuition are replaced with clarity of vision and understanding.

    If that is true and one sense it is, then preconceived ideas about 'the enlightened' would not be 'conclusive', closed minded and static. However that might require vision and understanding. People who are insightful and open minded are just that. No enlightenment required ...

    ... ah well, nice try ... Personally I rate intuition highly and require no 'replacement'.
    http://the-wanderling.com/Recognize.html

    Shoshin
  • FosdickFosdick in its eye are mirrored far off mountains Alaska, USA Veteran

    Entering the forest he moves not the grass;
    Entering the water he makes not a ripple.

    nlighten
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited March 2016

    I like the way he lays it out, very down to 'conventional' earthish ..Free from the more complex often paradoxical, oxymoronic confusing definitions ....In a nutshell what he is saying is an enlightened person is a nice person to be around....

    How "we" personally perceive what it would be like to be enlightened, may not be how others see it... In the long run tis only the enlightened that will know the truth...
    It takes one to "really" know one

    Umm so how will they know if knowing does not require a self to know...."Who knows"

    However I think striving to obtain those 12 qualities is a good start... Even if it is not exactly enlightenment according to the Buddhist scriptures...One who achieves some or all these qualities will (in my book anyway) be a better person for doing so...
    ( better as in a nicer person to be around-

    "If you don't feel that you're enlightened...You can always try to be!"

    ...as opposed to a grumpy ol' fart, who "through ignorance" does not want to make the effort)

    Kundo
  • Let us look at another example:

    Happiness
    The enlightened person is happy and joyful. He has a cheerful disposition most of the time, and is willing to share that joy with others. He is always optimistic that all challenges have a resolution. Even though the resolution may not be the most desirable, he is confident that he is capable of being at peace with it.

    Self evident and obvious?
    Having the interior state of being free and awake does not have conditions such as happy, joyous or unhappy, joyless. So equinimity is a closer aproximation. Sharing awakening is a challenge without a resolution. Being at peace and having desires? Happy and confident with that dichotomy?

    Time to look a little deeper than someone who has got their act together ... important start as that might be ...

    Shoshin
  • How about this?

    The one who has complete freedom no longer have:

    Self-Illusion (sakkaya-ditthi)
    Doubt(vicikiccha)
    Attachment to mere Rule and Ritual (silabbata-paramaso)
    Sensual Lust (kamacchando, kāma-cchanda)
    Ill-Will (vyapada)
    Craving for Fine-Material Existence (rupa-raga)
    Craving for Immaterial Existence (arupa-raga)
    Conceit (mana)
    Restlessness (uddhaccan)
    Ignorance (avijja).

    http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_development/buddhist/fetters.htm

    Shoshinlobster
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Interesting point about equanimity @lobster.... Being undisturbed... having the ability to see which way the wind blows and go with the flow (or blow ) :)

    Some Dharma teachers I've had the good fortune to meet/listen to, have had this"happy go-lucky nature" yet serenely expressed....

    Serene's also a nice term :)

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited March 2016

    Serene and unperturbed is a better description of the nature but not necessarily the expression. Indeed. <3

    However serenity is covered in the second point, so let us explore that a little further:

    Peaceful and Serene
    The enlightened person is peaceful and serene, because he is free of fear and other unwholesome emotions. He can see that the human condition reaches beyond this physical existence, so he no longer has a fear of the unknown. He is free of worry because he understands that freedom from suffering comes from within, and not from material possessions.

    Is she?
    The professionally enlightened or spiritually deluded, project this peaceful serene persona, their reputation and sense of ultra-spirituality rests on it. The fraudsters have picked up on this for a while now. Sanctimous is the term.

    To a degree temporary inner peace can be obtained by a visit to a spa, intense periods of meditation practice (buddhist serenity induction program) or retail therapy.
    "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10) tsk tsk, no enlightened Christians?
    As for the enlightened AND wrathful manifestations of the Buddhist protectors ... mmm ...
    http://buddhaweekly.com/tantric-wrathful-deities-the-psychology-and-extraordinary-power-of-enlightened-beings-in-their-fearsome-form/

    Trite lists appeal to our superficial fantasies and expectations. There is some truth when expressed by someone who is operating from the far shore. Otherwise they are just snoozzze extenders ... o:)

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I think this guy has it nailed....

    lobster
  • ShakShak Veteran

    @federica said:
    I think this guy has it nailed....

    You might be right...

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    I like Matthieu Ricard's "Happiness" recipe too :)

    "Of course I get irritated. But I usually start laughing quite quickly at the irritation, because it's so silly."

    (It's amazing how quickly ones negative attitude changes if one can manage to laugh at ones own stupidity=ignorant nature)

    lobster
  • However I think striving to obtain those 12 qualities is a good start...

    Of course. A healthy ego is a good start if you require a healthy ego ...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology#Spirituality

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    "Neuroeconomist Paul Zak studies morality, oxytocin, and trust, among other variables. Based on research findings, Zak recommends: people hug others more often to get into the habit of feeling trust. He explains "eight hugs a day, you'll be happier, and the world will be a better place""

    He's preaching to the converted :lol:

    lobsteryagr
  • What is the limit to the number of hugs before dukkha sets in?

    At the epicentre of this needy, adoring crowd, Amma is looking distinctly grumpy. She has been squeezing the living daylight out of her devotees for three hours by now, and judging by the size of the waiting crowd she still has a very long day ahead of her. Her face is distorted into a grimace of pained acceptance, framed by a halo of frazzled greying hair that have escaped her ponytail. Her pure white sari is stained just below her right shoulder – a big oily dark brown smudge marking the spot where each devotee’s forehead is pressed into her shoulder, leaving behind a thank-you of sweat and vibhuti, the sacred ash that Hindus smear on their foreheads.

    http://www.ramblingdays.com/amma/

    lobstersilver
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @pegembara said:
    What is the limit to the number of hugs before dukkha sets in?

    At the epicentre of this needy, adoring crowd, Amma is looking distinctly grumpy. She has been squeezing the living daylight out of her devotees for three hours by now, and judging by the size of the waiting crowd she still has a very long day ahead of her. Her face is distorted into a grimace of pained acceptance, framed by a halo of frazzled greying hair that have escaped her ponytail. Her pure white sari is stained just below her right shoulder – a big oily dark brown smudge marking the spot where each devotee’s forehead is pressed into her shoulder, leaving behind a thank-you of sweat and vibhuti, the sacred ash that Hindus smear on their foreheads.

    http://www.ramblingdays.com/amma/

    Everything in moderation @pegembara Everything in moderation...including hugs :)

    pegembara
  • FosdickFosdick in its eye are mirrored far off mountains Alaska, USA Veteran

    To be completely free you can't at the same time have a responsible concern for people who depend on you.

    I think the old monk overreaches himself here. Family, dependents, etc present extra difficulties to be sure, but to say that those difficulties cannot be surmounted is, in my view, inaccurate. How would he know anyway - he's celibate.

    Shoshin
  • @Shoshin said:
    Everything in moderation @pegembara Everything in moderation...including [hugs]

    Aw? We can't roll our way or eat our way to enlightenment either? Tsk, tsk ... things used to be so simple ...

    Shoshin
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Fosdick said:

    To be completely free you can't at the same time have a responsible concern for people who depend on you.

    I think the old monk overreaches himself here. Family, dependents, etc present extra difficulties to be sure, but to say that those difficulties cannot be surmounted is, in my view, inaccurate. How would he know anyway - he's celibate.

    Classic throwaway line denoting a failure to 'get the point'.

    It's like a guy, unable to attract a girl, shrugging his shoulders and saying that she's probably a lesbian....
    To dismiss the man's devoted, accumulated and worked-for conclusions with such a trite excuse, merely goes to show a lack of true understanding of his message.
    Besides - the article is presented by a journalist, Matt Smith - the snippets are summaries of Picard's philosophy - which may or may not have been misinterpreted or mis-worded by the reporter...
    And if you look at the statement, he admits his own celibacy. But if you read the article as a whole, and take his comment into context - then it makes absolute sense.

    He's saying that in order to be free - liberated - unbound - you cannot then accept the onerous task of being also directly responsible for the well-being, safety and continuity of other people.

    I think the Buddha did the same, didn't he?
    He knew there were some things which had to be let aside - his family included.
    Wanna try telling the Buddha he over-reached himself?

  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited March 2016

    Heh. The reason today's Buddhism will never be able to compete with Christianity:

    Buddhists insist anyone can be enlightened, but can't find anyone who admits to being enlightened because they believe it means they'd have to be perfect all the time.

    Christians insist anyone can be saved, and point to an entire church full of saved people because they believe you don't have to be perfect to be saved.

    Heck, I'm a Buddhist and even I wonder why I'd rather join this club.

    I was enlightened yesterday for an entire hour. I'm enlightened now. But maybe on the way to work I'll lose my temper and not be. Then I'll have to be enlightened all over again. Who knows?

    lobsterWalkerShoshinKundo
  • FosdickFosdick in its eye are mirrored far off mountains Alaska, USA Veteran

    @Federica - it is true, that was indeed a

    Classic throwaway line denoting a failure to 'get the point'.

    Or, more accurately perhaps, denoting a desire to further the discussion by being troublesome. My apologies.

    I do not dismiss the fellow's accomplishments, in fact I am somewhat in awe of them. I further feel that he was probably not speaking generally, but referring primarily to himself as regards celibacy - this was his true path. You are quite correct that one cannot accept the products of journalism as representing any sort of definitive absolutes.

    As you also correctly point out, the Buddha did indeed give up his own familial responsibilities, became a wanderer, and thereby found enlightenment. But he then adopted the onerous task of being directly responsible for the spiritual well-being of another group of people, the Sangha, and for the life and continuity of his teaching, which has enabled us, you and I, to become members of that Sangha.

    I question, therefore, the idea that responsibility for others comprises a barrier to enlightenment. In fact, the teachings might seem to convey the opposite, and that others are in some sense our responsibility, whether we wish it or not.

    CinorjerShoshin
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    If it helps, Buddha could have gone in any direction upon awakening but instead he sought out his old companions and his family as a first matter of course.

    lobsterCinorjerShoshin
  • FosdickFosdick in its eye are mirrored far off mountains Alaska, USA Veteran

    Just so. He also welcomed lay people into the Sangha, and I do not recollect his telling them or anyone else that enlightenment was beyond their reach.

    lobsterCinorjersilver
  • If there isn't really an individual there to be called enlightened, i.e. sunyata - or - "empty of identity", what matter if there are 100,00 qualities of enlightenment? And at 299,792,458 m / s who could tell anyway? Grumpy old fart chiming in here......

    @Shoshin said:
    I like the way he lays it out, very down to 'conventional' earthish ..Free from the more complex often paradoxical, oxymoronic confusing definitions ....In a nutshell what he is saying is an enlightened person is a nice person to be around....

    How "we" personally perceive what it would be like to be enlightened, may not be how others see it... In the long run tis only the enlightened that will know the truth...
    It takes one to "really" know one

    Umm so how will they know if knowing does not require a self to know...."Who knows"

    However I think striving to obtain those 12 qualities is a good start... Even if it is not exactly enlightenment according to the Buddhist scriptures...One who achieves some or all these qualities will (in my book anyway) be a better person for doing so...
    ( better as in a nicer person to be around-

    "If you don't feel that you're enlightened...You can always try to be!"

    ...as opposed to a grumpy ol' fart, who "through ignorance" does not want to make the effort)

    Shoshin
  • FosdickFosdick in its eye are mirrored far off mountains Alaska, USA Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @Cinorjer said:

    Buddhists insist anyone can be enlightened, but can't find anyone who admits to being enlightened because they believe it means they'd have to be perfect all the time.

    Christians insist anyone can be saved, and point to an entire church full of saved people because they believe you don't have to be perfect to be saved.

    Maybe a good topic for another thread, but I can't help observing that there is some similarity in the two positions. In Buddhism, everyone is "saved" and they don't even have to be Buddhist to inhabit this state. All are "saved", but we don't realize or see it.
    To see it takes a lot of work.

    In Christianity - as I understand it - only Christians are "saved". They don't see it either, they have only to accept the dogmas of the Church - that is, to take someone else's word for it. My experience has been that "seeing" hardly rates a mention in the average congregation - One of the reasons I hightailed it out of there a long time ago.

    Christians also can become enlightened, or something like it, but it never seemed to me that they get much help in doing so. Nonetheless, the two approaches are not completely incompatible.

    lobsterCinorjer
  • Maybe a good topic for another thread

    Indeed. I started it in the 'faith and religions' section.
    I like Christians. If I was a lion, I would eat two. Tee hee.

  • techietechie India Veteran

    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    Shoshin
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    " Don't practice to become enlightened-Let your practice be the natural expression of your enlightenment!" .....Also from a Zen Master :)

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited March 2016

    Let us go on to the third criteria of the 'enlightened'. I have replaced enlightened with mature and removed the word 'spiritual' as superflous. Are the enlightened just those who are older and wiser? Those who have developed a wholesome ego from self help courses or who have the spare capacity for self improvement?
    http://montalk.net/metaphys/42/principles-of-spiritual-evolution-part-i

    Loving, Kind, and Compassionate
    The mature person is loving, kind, and compassionate for two main reasons: 1) she genuinely cares about people, regardless of whether they care about her, and 2) she knows that other people provide her with the nourishment she needs to continue growing. Therefore, she remains open.

    Perhaps.
    Perhaps the enlightened have the capacity to make use of opposites. Something that might begin once 'stage five' is engaged ...

    Kōans are accordingly grouped into five categories in a most fully developed system: the first group is designed for 1) reaching li (suchness) (richi) or the body of truth (hosshin), 2) the second group for a linguistic articulation (gensen) of meditational experiences, 3) the third group for those kōans truly difficult to pass (nantō), 4) the fourth group for the practitioner to make an insight of kōan experiences pertinent in daily life (kikan), and 5) the fifth group for going beyond the state of buddhahood by erasing traces of enlightenment
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-zen/

    Enlightement used to be so simple ... before enlightenment :p

    Shoshin
  • @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    Since you asked for it. Good qualities do not cause enlightenment, and becoming enlightened does not create good qualities that did not exist before. One can not exist without the other, so how can one come before the other? They are not separate.

    And that's my Zen answer for today. Like I said, you asked for it.

    followthepath
  • techietechie India Veteran

    @Shoshin said:

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    " Don't practice to become enlightened-Let your practice be the natural expression of your enlightenment!" .....Also from a Zen Master :)

    Thanks, that's sort of what I meant. Meaning, we can't actually practice anything. Practice can only take us so far. The real thing comes when it will - we just have to wait for it.

    ShoshinCinorjer
  • @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    Tee Hee. Of any two options choose the third.

    Developing good qualities is worthwhile on so many levels. People engaged in no good for anyone including themselves, are not very likely to overcome ignorance in any sense of the word. Enlightenment does not change anything, what, who or where we are. However enlightenment effects, over time every core aspect of self.

    Ay curumba, enlightenment is just a 'good start'.

    Cinorjer
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @Cinorjer said:
    Heh. The reason today's Buddhism will never be able to compete with Christianity:

    Buddhists insist anyone can be enlightened, but can't find anyone who admits to being enlightened because they believe it means they'd have to be perfect all the time.

    Christians insist anyone can be saved, and point to an entire church full of saved people because they believe you don't have to be perfect to be saved.

    truth

    Cinorjer
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    It may be a "six of one, half dozen of the other" kind of thing. I'm sure at least some of us unenlightened slobs have a few good qualities already.

    Heck, some of us may have unwittingly been a catalyst for anothers enlightenment. Even if we are not enlightened ourselves, our words and/or deeds have the potential to hit someone square in the face.

    "Every now and then you get shown the light;
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    lobster
  • techietechie India Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @David said:

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    It may be a "six of one, half dozen of the other" kind of thing. I'm sure at least some of us unenlightened slobs have a few good qualities already.

    Heck, some of us may have unwittingly been a catalyst for anothers enlightenment. Even if we are not enlightened ourselves, our words and/or deeds have the potential to hit someone square in the face.

    "Every now and then you get shown the light;
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against cultivating good qualities. But people often conflate virtue with enlightenment. A virtuous person is a virtuous person, not necessarily an enlightened person. An enlightened person, otoh, may not believe in social morality and even look 'immoral' to the layperson's eye. Just saying enlightenment isn't something you infer by looking at a person's character or qualities.

    lobsterCinorjer
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    It may be a "six of one, half dozen of the other" kind of thing. I'm sure at least some of us unenlightened slobs have a few good qualities already.

    Heck, some of us may have unwittingly been a catalyst for anothers enlightenment. Even if we are not enlightened ourselves, our words and/or deeds have the potential to hit someone square in the face.

    "Every now and then you get shown the light;
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against cultivating good qualities. But people often conflate virtue with enlightenment. A virtuous person is a virtuous person, not necessarily an enlightened person.

    True, but a virtuous person can be enlightening even if they are not enlightened themselves. This to me signifies that enlightened qualities could be present even as the one projecting them is unaware.

    An enlightened person, otoh, may not believe in social morality and even look 'immoral' to the layperson's eye. Just saying enlightenment isn't something you infer by looking at a person's character or qualities.

    That doesn't seem to ring true to me and actually feels self contradictory. In my view, to be enlightened is to be easily seen as living dharma or truth, not to be in on some obscure secret.

    You just got me to thinking and I'm not out to rain on any parades but I think being enlightened is a fools errand.

    To be enlightening... Now that would be better.

    Shoshinsilver
  • Don't get me wrong, I am not against cultivating good qualities. But people often conflate virtue with enlightenment.

    Indeed. They do. Just as we may trust good looking sales people.

    A virtuous person is a virtuous person, not necessarily an enlightened person. An enlightened person, otoh, may not believe in social morality and even look 'immoral' to the layperson's eye. Just saying enlightenment isn't something you infer by looking at a person's character or qualities.

    Exactly so.

    Here is an early greek example, Diogenes ...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope

    Then we have the Islamic malamatiyya
    http://www.chishti.ru/path-of-blame.htm

    In America we have the Heyoka
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heyoka

    ... and in Buddhism we have madmen or nyönpa
    http://chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Tsangnyön_Heruka

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @techie makes an interesting point about enlightenment not necessarily does it equate to one having an overwhelming 'desire' to help other sentient beings, like that of Bodhisattvas ....

    I guess some may just want to free themselves from suffering, and after doing so, not feel overly obliged to help others do the same....In other words they might not put themselves forward when help is required, but on the same note they don't look to cause any harm to others...

    They just mind their own business keeping themselves to themselves, so to speak... :)

    I guess for some the ol' saying applies "Before enlightenment chop wood, fetch water...After enlightenment chop wood fetch water!" but now they just do their chores with a knowing smile of contentment upon their face :)

    lobster
  • techietechie India Veteran

    @David said:

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    It may be a "six of one, half dozen of the other" kind of thing. I'm sure at least some of us unenlightened slobs have a few good qualities already.

    Heck, some of us may have unwittingly been a catalyst for anothers enlightenment. Even if we are not enlightened ourselves, our words and/or deeds have the potential to hit someone square in the face.

    "Every now and then you get shown the light;
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against cultivating good qualities. But people often conflate virtue with enlightenment. A virtuous person is a virtuous person, not necessarily an enlightened person.

    True, but a virtuous person can be enlightening even if they are not enlightened themselves. This to me signifies that enlightened qualities could be present even as the one projecting them is unaware.

    An enlightened person, otoh, may not believe in social morality and even look 'immoral' to the layperson's eye. Just saying enlightenment isn't something you infer by looking at a person's character or qualities.

    That doesn't seem to ring true to me and actually feels self contradictory. In my view, to be enlightened is to be easily seen as living dharma or truth, not to be in on some obscure secret.

    You just got me to thinking and I'm not out to rain on any parades but I think being enlightened is a fools errand.

    To be enlightening... Now that would be better.

    What is living dharma or truth? Each society will have its own version. A society that encourages greed will see greed as a virtue and non-greed as a weakness. In such society, even Dalai Lama or Gandhi will not be considered enlightened.

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    It may be a "six of one, half dozen of the other" kind of thing. I'm sure at least some of us unenlightened slobs have a few good qualities already.

    Heck, some of us may have unwittingly been a catalyst for anothers enlightenment. Even if we are not enlightened ourselves, our words and/or deeds have the potential to hit someone square in the face.

    "Every now and then you get shown the light;
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against cultivating good qualities. But people often conflate virtue with enlightenment. A virtuous person is a virtuous person, not necessarily an enlightened person.

    True, but a virtuous person can be enlightening even if they are not enlightened themselves. This to me signifies that enlightened qualities could be present even as the one projecting them is unaware.

    An enlightened person, otoh, may not believe in social morality and even look 'immoral' to the layperson's eye. Just saying enlightenment isn't something you infer by looking at a person's character or qualities.

    That doesn't seem to ring true to me and actually feels self contradictory. In my view, to be enlightened is to be easily seen as living dharma or truth, not to be in on some obscure secret.

    You just got me to thinking and I'm not out to rain on any parades but I think being enlightened is a fools errand.

    To be enlightening... Now that would be better.

    What is living dharma or truth? Each society will have its own version.

    As this is a Buddhist forum I'd say it is living according to the dharma as expressed by Buddha. In my view such an example is easily seen in the actions of Thich Nhat Hanh during the Viet Nam war.

    A society that encourages greed will see greed as a virtue and non-greed as a weakness. In such society, even Dalai Lama or Gandhi will not be considered enlightened.

    So you're saying that enlightenment is whatever you want it to be?

    Maybe if I put a shoe on my head and flap my arms like wings I can be a crazy wisdom guru.

    This kind of argument is why I think the term "awakened" is so much more to the point than "enlightened".

    Being awake to and living the dharma as expressed by Buddha, one could not possibly hold greed as a virtue.

    Fosdick
  • @David said:
    Maybe if I put a shoe on my head and flap my arms like wings I can be a crazy wisdom guru.

    Enlightenment first then (if required) arm or mouth flapping ...

    The Christian Crazies
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foolishness_for_Christ#Holy_fool

    Sacred Trickster
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster

    ... and now back to the shoe wearing ...

  • techietechie India Veteran

    @David said:

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    It may be a "six of one, half dozen of the other" kind of thing. I'm sure at least some of us unenlightened slobs have a few good qualities already.

    Heck, some of us may have unwittingly been a catalyst for anothers enlightenment. Even if we are not enlightened ourselves, our words and/or deeds have the potential to hit someone square in the face.

    "Every now and then you get shown the light;
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against cultivating good qualities. But people often conflate virtue with enlightenment. A virtuous person is a virtuous person, not necessarily an enlightened person.

    True, but a virtuous person can be enlightening even if they are not enlightened themselves. This to me signifies that enlightened qualities could be present even as the one projecting them is unaware.

    An enlightened person, otoh, may not believe in social morality and even look 'immoral' to the layperson's eye. Just saying enlightenment isn't something you infer by looking at a person's character or qualities.

    That doesn't seem to ring true to me and actually feels self contradictory. In my view, to be enlightened is to be easily seen as living dharma or truth, not to be in on some obscure secret.

    You just got me to thinking and I'm not out to rain on any parades but I think being enlightened is a fools errand.

    To be enlightening... Now that would be better.

    What is living dharma or truth? Each society will have its own version.

    As this is a Buddhist forum I'd say it is living according to the dharma as expressed by Buddha. In my view such an example is easily seen in the actions of Thich Nhat Hanh during the Viet Nam war.

    A society that encourages greed will see greed as a virtue and non-greed as a weakness. In such society, even Dalai Lama or Gandhi will not be considered enlightened.

    So you're saying that enlightenment is whatever you want it to be?

    Maybe if I put a shoe on my head and flap my arms like wings I can be a crazy wisdom guru.

    This kind of argument is why I think the term "awakened" is so much more to the point than "enlightened".

    Being awake to and living the dharma as expressed by Buddha, one could not possibly hold greed as a virtue.

    I thought this was relevant:
    http://monkeytree.org/silkroad/mindbody/emperor.html

    Cinorjer
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    It may be a "six of one, half dozen of the other" kind of thing. I'm sure at least some of us unenlightened slobs have a few good qualities already.

    Heck, some of us may have unwittingly been a catalyst for anothers enlightenment. Even if we are not enlightened ourselves, our words and/or deeds have the potential to hit someone square in the face.

    "Every now and then you get shown the light;
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against cultivating good qualities. But people often conflate virtue with enlightenment. A virtuous person is a virtuous person, not necessarily an enlightened person.

    True, but a virtuous person can be enlightening even if they are not enlightened themselves. This to me signifies that enlightened qualities could be present even as the one projecting them is unaware.

    An enlightened person, otoh, may not believe in social morality and even look 'immoral' to the layperson's eye. Just saying enlightenment isn't something you infer by looking at a person's character or qualities.

    That doesn't seem to ring true to me and actually feels self contradictory. In my view, to be enlightened is to be easily seen as living dharma or truth, not to be in on some obscure secret.

    You just got me to thinking and I'm not out to rain on any parades but I think being enlightened is a fools errand.

    To be enlightening... Now that would be better.

    What is living dharma or truth? Each society will have its own version.

    As this is a Buddhist forum I'd say it is living according to the dharma as expressed by Buddha. In my view such an example is easily seen in the actions of Thich Nhat Hanh during the Viet Nam war.

    A society that encourages greed will see greed as a virtue and non-greed as a weakness. In such society, even Dalai Lama or Gandhi will not be considered enlightened.

    So you're saying that enlightenment is whatever you want it to be?

    Maybe if I put a shoe on my head and flap my arms like wings I can be a crazy wisdom guru.

    This kind of argument is why I think the term "awakened" is so much more to the point than "enlightened".

    Being awake to and living the dharma as expressed by Buddha, one could not possibly hold greed as a virtue.

    I thought this was relevant:
    http://monkeytree.org/silkroad/mindbody/emperor.html

    He was too proud and self congratulating to understand as of yet. He may haved believed these are enlightening qualities he possessed but he was wrong and with the help of another monk he was able to see it.

    Not really the same as Thich Nhat Hanh, lol. He did help a lot of people though and even as he didn't understand, he likely inspired others to the path of compassion and could have been a catalyst of other awakenings.

    Not sure who's point you are making really.

    Personally, I think Bodhidharma could have been more skillful there. Maybe he was in a hurry or maybe he lacked the patience needed to help.

  • @David said:

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:

    @David said:

    @techie said:
    A zen master once said you don't develop good qualities and then become enlightened. Once you're enlightened, you will develop these qualities as a matter of course.

    Agree or disagree?

    It may be a "six of one, half dozen of the other" kind of thing. I'm sure at least some of us unenlightened slobs have a few good qualities already.

    Heck, some of us may have unwittingly been a catalyst for anothers enlightenment. Even if we are not enlightened ourselves, our words and/or deeds have the potential to hit someone square in the face.

    "Every now and then you get shown the light;
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against cultivating good qualities. But people often conflate virtue with enlightenment. A virtuous person is a virtuous person, not necessarily an enlightened person.

    True, but a virtuous person can be enlightening even if they are not enlightened themselves. This to me signifies that enlightened qualities could be present even as the one projecting them is unaware.

    An enlightened person, otoh, may not believe in social morality and even look 'immoral' to the layperson's eye. Just saying enlightenment isn't something you infer by looking at a person's character or qualities.

    That doesn't seem to ring true to me and actually feels self contradictory. In my view, to be enlightened is to be easily seen as living dharma or truth, not to be in on some obscure secret.

    You just got me to thinking and I'm not out to rain on any parades but I think being enlightened is a fools errand.

    To be enlightening... Now that would be better.

    What is living dharma or truth? Each society will have its own version.

    As this is a Buddhist forum I'd say it is living according to the dharma as expressed by Buddha. In my view such an example is easily seen in the actions of Thich Nhat Hanh during the Viet Nam war.

    A society that encourages greed will see greed as a virtue and non-greed as a weakness. In such society, even Dalai Lama or Gandhi will not be considered enlightened.

    So you're saying that enlightenment is whatever you want it to be?

    Maybe if I put a shoe on my head and flap my arms like wings I can be a crazy wisdom guru.

    This kind of argument is why I think the term "awakened" is so much more to the point than "enlightened".

    Being awake to and living the dharma as expressed by Buddha, one could not possibly hold greed as a virtue.

    Davidsilver
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @lobster said:

    @David said:
    Maybe if I put a shoe on my head and flap my arms like wings I can be a crazy wisdom guru.

    Enlightenment first then (if required) arm or mouth flapping ...

    The Christian Crazies
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foolishness_for_Christ#Holy_fool

    Would you consider somebody that pretends to be nuts to hide their superiority over others to be enlightened?

    I like this persona but I wouldn't go as far as to say it is a reflection of enlightenment.

    ... and now back to the shoe wearing ...

    Just not on the carpet, please.

  • Would you consider somebody that pretends to be nuts to hide their superiority over others to be enlightened?

    Pretends? Superior? Other?
    Of course not.

    The question for the enlightened is really what is the best way to serve others, considering how people make so many ignorant assumptions and judgements. You might have noticed those assumptions ... if not then it is worth looking out for ...

    ... and now back to other considerations ...

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