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Bad meditation

lobsterlobster Veteran
edited March 2016 in Meditation

Lately I have been doing a daily 'bad meditation'. About half the time I don't want to meditate, I sit anyway. Sometimes I sit without a cushion, since getting to the cushion is a perceived difficulty. I may even spend the time I sit chanting.

I am rubbish.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/meditation-for-dummies-cheat-sheet.html

Luckily I have no sense of defeat or disappointment. Not sitting formally might just be too bad ... I am going to sit now. Gently, eyes shut lightly rather than the more usual eyes gently focused. Bad is good too.

Do you have 'bad' patches? Anything good to mention?

"In the West, I do not think it advisable to follow Buddhism. Changing religions is not like changing professions. Excitement lessens over the years, and soon you are not excited, and then where are you? Homeless inside yourself."
– The Dalai Lama, quoted in Tibet, Tibet by Patrick French
http://www.lorinroche.com/dangers/homeless.html

Wot? Haz I been following the wrong seating plan? O.o

personZendoLord84

Comments

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I have more bad than good. I find myself more in Contemplation and less in Meditation.

    My mind does not wander; I focus. But I cogitate.

    Still, it's a start....

    lobster
  • There is no good or bad meditation. It is only thinking that make it so.

    littlestudentSwaroop
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @pegembara said:
    There is no good or bad meditation. It is only thinking that make it so.

    I agree. I was merely using @lobster's terminology to facilitate a reply....

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited March 2016

    These Buddhists won't even let me think now ... :o
    Nurse!

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    No, of course you can THINK.
    It's just 'what' that matters..... ;) :p

    lobster
  • @federica said:

    @pegembara said:
    There is no good or bad meditation. It is only thinking that make it so.

    I agree. I was merely using @lobster's terminology to facilitate a reply....

    I thought mine was the first post after lobster's. Didn't see yours until now!

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @pegembara said: I thought mine was the first post after lobster's. Didn't see yours until now!

    I think it was a case of simultaneous posting. Shows how mindful the forum hardware is!

    lobster
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @pegembara said:> There is no good or bad meditation. It is only thinking that make it so.

    Nonsense. Sometimes people just practice incorrectly, and thereby miss the point. Maybe they have never been properly instructed or advised. Sometimes we just a have a bad day, or a bad week, we lose focus and don't get in the zone. I don't think it helps anyone to pretend that there is no such thing as a "bad" meditation, it's just lazy side-stepping of an important question about the importance of method. And there is always method, even in unstructured or formless meditations.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Bad and good are entirely subjective. Shakespeare said so. Kipling alluded to it.

    Simply because we carelessly use the word 'bad' as an adjective (and thanks to American slang, 'bad' can mean 'good', remember!!) doesn't mean we believe that meditation to have been ENTIRELY bad.
    unsatisfactory would be a more appropriate term, probably.
    @lobster, you 'sit anyway'. Which is, I would say, the 'good' part.

    No?

    lobster
  • @federica said:> unsatisfactory would be a more appropriate term, probably.

    Well, OK, let's talk about unsatisfactory, or ineffective. Let's talk about methods which work, and methods which don't. But please let us not pretend that it's all "good".

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2016

    I never said it was ALL good.... did I? Who said that? Now I'm confused. It's early Monday morning, and already this is looking.... unsatisfactory!!

    :lol:

    lobster
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    Once upon a time, during a longish retreat, I returned to my cushion from kinhin (walking meditation), sat down in the prescribed fashion and for the better part of the ensuing 40 minute sitting, I was ... wowsers! ... horny.

    At first, I did what I could to derail it all -- to get back to breath or a koan or whatever I was supposed to be doing. I really tried, but every effort I expended met with defeat. Finally, I gave up and gave in. OK, you want to be horny? Go ahead and be horny. And for the better part of 40 minutes I ran imaginative scenarios on the woman I had chosen to fantasize about. Oh what a terrible Zen student I was!!!!! Oh what a terrible sitting!!!!! This was not at all what I had signed on for. Did real Zen students do this??? No they did not!!!! Real Zen students sought out clarity and compassion and there I sat in a puddle of confusion and attachment and (gotta be honest here) some enjoyment.

    I ran one sex scene after another. It was like an endless tape. On and on and on it went. It seemed that it would never end and being a Zen student was the furthest thing from any personal capacity.

    But then, around minute 38 (if you sit long enough, you learn how to gauge the time ... down to the second) I realized I was repeating myself. My imagination had run out of fodder. I was doing the same stuff ... again ... and it wasn't quite as interesting as it had been during the first go-around. Couldn't I come up with some new and improved fantasy? And the answer was, no I couldn't. (That'll teach me to read the Kamasutra more closely!) I tried and tried to regenerate the delicious fireworks. It didn't work. I did my best to do a lousy but scrumptious meditation practice and the fact was I was as lousy at being "lousy" as I was at being "good."

    "Lousy" and "good" are limited. Meditation practice is not.

    I figure I got in maybe sixty seconds of halfway decent meditation during that horny 40-minute adventure. But I could be wrong. Maybe it wasn't halfway decent at all. Don't ask me. :)

    lobsterpegembaramarcitkoSwaroop
  • Unsatisfactory. Much better term.

    I have been taught very well, I am just an unsatisfactory student. For example many, not all, meditation tutors suggest keeping the eyes open and gently focussed. As no sloth arises from my current practice and quite naturally, my eyes for about the last year, have been mostly closed.
    http://www.wildmind.org/posture/head

    As for missing the point. I have bad results sometimes, for example not trying to have a point or narrow focus. I might do some tightening of the nuts on the side of my nut.

    ... and now back to the satisfied and 'erect' sitters ... Tee Hee, could not resist reference to @genkaku post ...

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited March 2016

    The notion of a meditation 'working' is based on your tendencies and why you came to the cushion. If you had no tendancy there would be no criterion for 'good' or 'bad'. Essentially always in meditation there is a wish or expectation or reason you are meditating. But it is not the same for everyone. So maybe some people the criterion is to stay on the breath and if they do that then they are thinking to themselves 'boy I am doing good'. But another meditator might not evaluate the meditation based on how much they are with the breath. Other examples of criterion might be matching your experience to what is described in a scripture.

    lobster
  • @Jeffrey said:
    Essentially always in meditation there is a wish or expectation or reason you are meditating.

    Ah ha! Well spotted. B)

    It is the expectation to not be horny, be focused, mindful, all Metta and joyous, calm and in equilibrium, absorbed in concentrated breathing etc etc.

    Shikantaza might be too advanced for me.
    http://www.mcelhearn.com/just-sitting-the-zen-practice-of-shikantaza/

    Maybe I could just be a bad meditator ... mmm ... could be plan ... B)

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @SpinyNorman said:

    @pegembara said:> There is no good or bad meditation. It is only thinking that make it so.

    Nonsense. Sometimes people just practice incorrectly, and thereby miss the point. Maybe they have never been properly instructed or advised. Sometimes we just a have a bad day, or a bad week, we lose focus and don't get in the zone. I don't think it helps anyone to pretend that there is no such thing as a "bad" meditation, it's just lazy side-stepping of an important question about the importance of method. And there is always method, even in unstructured or formless meditations.

    Okay. To be precise, once you practise correctly ie. can maintain mindfulness, there is no good or bad meditation. As long as you can remain _aware _of what is happening, it is all good.

    Why? Anger, confusion, lust, fear are just conditions that arise and cease. Just as peace, love, contentment. They are all conditions that arise and passes like clouds in the sky. It is all good even on "bad" days..

    The meditation is not "bad" because "bad" thoughts and feelings come up.

    lobster
  • @federica said:
    @lobster, you 'sit anyway'. Which is, I would say, the 'good' part.

    No?

    Yes I am very disciplined. Formal sitting is the only thing that makes me a Buddhist as I tend to use Buddhist practices, mantra etc. rather than Yogic or Sufi methods. Sufis for example are allowed to slouch and even fall asleep. Well they pretend they have entered a higher dimension ... however I have heard the snoring ...
    http://www.sufischool.org/practises/muraqabah.html
    Yogis are trying to get union/yoke with something or other and Christians are only of use at easter, when chocolate goodies are available as incentive ...

    ... everyone seems to be meditating ...
    http://www.thewhitegoddess.co.uk/articles/general_pagan/meditation_techniques.asp

    Even the Dark Side of the Force ...
    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/zen-and-the-art-of-fund-management-9544479.html

  • @pegembara said:> Okay. To be precise, once you practise correctly ie. can maintain mindfulness, there is no good or bad meditation. As long as you can remain _aware _of what is happening, it is all good.

    It depends on what kind of meditation one is doing. So for example if the method of meditation is intended to develop samatha ( tranquillity ), and tranquillity doesn't develop, then the method isn't being applied effectively so time and effort are being wasted.
    If on the other hand the method of meditation is intended to develop more clarity and insight, and that doesn't happen, then again there is a problem.

    lobster
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @SpinyNorman said:

    @pegembara said:> Okay. To be precise, once you practise correctly ie. can maintain mindfulness, there is no good or bad meditation. As long as you can remain _aware _of what is happening, it is all good.

    It depends on what kind of meditation one is doing. So for example if the method of meditation is intended to develop samatha ( tranquillity ), and tranquillity doesn't develop, then the method isn't being applied effectively so time and effort are being wasted.
    If on the other hand the method of meditation is intended to develop more clarity and insight, and that doesn't happen, then again there is a problem.

    In a way, that's true if the purpose is to attain calm and stillness. But the only meditation that matters ie. leading to true freedom requires an awareness of all conditions that arises and ceases. Even when mind is agitated or restless, that awareness of the mind state is already doing the practice. Practice is practice. Pleasant("good") or unpleasant ("bad") states are all just grist for the mill towards the ultimate goal. No effort is wasted even if the mind has been agitated throughout the session.

    "Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

    "The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

    "Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in the eye, finds estrangement in forms, finds estrangement in eye-consciousness, finds estrangement in eye-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful- nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

    "When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.nymo.html

    littlestudent
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @pegembara said: In a way, that's true if the purpose is to attain calm and stillness. But the only meditation that matters ie. leading to true freedom requires an awareness of all conditions that arises and ceases. Even when mind is agitated or restless, that awareness of the mind state is already doing the practice. Practice is practice. Pleasant("good") or unpleasant ("bad") states are all just grist for the mill towards the ultimate goal. No effort is wasted even if the mind has been agitated throughout the session.

    Opinions about "the only meditation that matters" will vary according to tradition, but in Theravada both tranquillity and insight are important. https://suttacentral.net/en/an2.31

    A calm mind will be clearer and more concentrated, and therefore more able to maintain the awareness that you refer to. An agitated or restless mind is unlikely to be clear or aware.

    Effort can be wasted in meditation, the method does matter, and it shouldn't be a hit and miss affair. There are of course many methods, but it is important to understand what they are and the differences between them. Just making it up as you go along isn't likely to be productive, it can lead to frustration and eventually to just giving up.

    lobster
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Do you have 'bad' patches? Anything good to mention?

    When it comes to meditation, one way to look at it is, unless awareness of the meditative state of the impermanent nature of all things is maintained on and off the cushion..... tis all unsatisfactory...that's Dukkha for ya.... "Anicca" :)

    Desire & Aversion are the craving-spanners in the works, they work at a subtle level under the radar ....where one might desire things to be a certain way and have an aversion to any other way...

    On a personal level, it's not so much that it's all good or all bad it just is as it is and if there is awareness of it as such, (both on and off the cushion) then it's meditation...or as the Tibetans like to say "Gom" =familiarisation ...

    How "I" see it is....the aim is not "to" meditate, but to "be" meditation !

    As usual "I" could be wrong...But so far so [not] good [not bad] it seems to be working :)

    pegembaralobsterDavid
  • Exactly so @Shoshin

  • Thanks guys,

    When meditation is more dukkha, distraction and mind doodling, something needs to change. Oh it does anyway ... I knew there was nothing to do ...

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @Shoshin said: When it comes to meditation, one way to look at it is, unless awareness of the meditative state of the impermanent nature of all things is maintained on and off the cushion..... tis all unsatisfactory...that's Dukkha for ya.... "Anicca" :)

    I agree about the importance of maintaining awareness, but what is your approach to this, practically speaking? How do you manage to maintain that awareness? Are you talking about mindfulness of impermanence, noticing change, and if so what's your approach?

  • @lobster said:Thanks guys,
    When meditation is more dukkha, distraction and mind doodling, something needs to change. Oh it does anyway ... I knew there was nothing to do ...

    It might be that you need some more structure in your meditation, at least for a while. Unstructured methods can be very challenging.

  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited March 2016

    I meditate and I try to learn from Buddhist principles but I don't consider myself a Buddhist anymore.

    The Dalai lama is right, and I had to make a choice. being a Buddhist in the Western world requires separation of that same world.

    However I enjoy meditation including the bad/worse/terrible times and it helped me get some peace of in the long run.

    There are some fundamental lessons in Buddhism that aply on all cultures, religions and people.

    Thats enough for me.

    littlestudentlobster
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @iamthezenmaster , you might find this article - long and wordy, I admit - of interest.

    ZendoLord84
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    I think the problem comes in when we stretch the "bad" or "good" labels in meditation to our value as a person. Too often we do not only analyze the situation and/or results so we can change how we do it next time, if appropriate. But we also apply those labels to ourselves. We didn't have unsatisfactory or bad meditation but rather we are bad meditators and the whole thing is hopeless and since I can't do it right I might as well not do it again. What is the point? That is when it becomes "bad" because it turns meditation into just another attachment with the suggestion that it should always be pleasurable. And when meditation is good, whatever that means, it is the same thing. We high five ourselves in our heads for doing a good job and think about how far we've come and where we're going. We're amazing and awesome!

    That's why I hesitate to label my experiences. I do evaluate them on my own and if needed I make changes. Not so much to ensure a good outcome versus a bad, but to ensure longevity in my practice I guess.

    silverlobster
  • @SpinyNorman said:
    It might be that you need some more structure in your meditation, at least for a while. Unstructured methods can be very challenging.

    exactly right. I will probably set a timer and count the breath or similar.

  • EonTrinityEonTrinity Evansville, WI New

    @federica said:
    @iamthezenmaster , you might find this article - long and wordy, I admit - of interest.

    This is an amazing article Frederica. Thank you so much for sharing it.

    ET

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @EonTrinity said:

    @federica said:
    @iamthezenmaster , you might find this article - long and wordy, I admit - of interest.

    This is an amazing article Frederica. Thank you so much for sharing it.

    ET

    Thank you. It's extremely interesting, isn't it?
    I posted it in order to try to suggest to @iamthezenmaster that, even if it is a challenge, "multitasking" is a definite possibility.

  • @federica said:
    @iamthezenmaster , you might find this article - long and wordy, I admit - of interest.

    That's a great article indeed. It shows once again how intelligent HHDL is!

  • @karasti said:
    I think the problem comes in when we stretch the "bad" or "good" labels in meditation to our value as a person. Too often we do not only analyze the situation and/or results so we can change how we do it next time, if appropriate. But we also apply those labels to ourselves. We didn't have unsatisfactory or bad meditation but rather we are bad meditators and the whole thing is hopeless and since I can't do it right I might as well not do it again. What is the point? That is when it becomes "bad" because it turns meditation into just another attachment with the suggestion that it should always be pleasurable. And when meditation is good, whatever that means, it is the same thing. We high five ourselves in our heads for doing a good job and think about how far we've come and where we're going. We're amazing and awesome!

    That's why I hesitate to label my experiences. I do evaluate them on my own and if needed I make changes. Not so much to ensure a good outcome versus a bad, but to ensure longevity in my practice I guess.

    I never label my experiences either, because I thought it is not very "Buddhist" to do so. There is no good or bad, it is just as it is. The reality.

    By the way, can any of us, who have learned to meditate later in life, while also having a family life, a job, hobbies etc..ever become a "great meditator"? It seems a bit like expecting somebody who lives in England to become a great skier...

    I just do my best, every day again, without judging myself (well, that's the aim =) )

    lobster
  • WalkerWalker Veteran

    I found the article interesting as well.

    I don't think Buddhists are alone in this modern-day existential crisis. I think a lot of people, regardless of their traditional background, have also been going through mixed feelings about their religious traditions in light of modern scientific breakthroughs, technology and social change.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @SpinyNorman said:
    I agree about the importance of maintaining awareness, but what is your approach to this, practically speaking?

    “I” don’t have an approach as such…( well apart from regular meditation practice on and off the cushion) If /when “I” think “I AM” in control of something, that’s when clinging and grasping arises, ie’ the spanner in the works…and things begin to get a little sticky….

    How do you manage to maintain that awareness?

    “I” don’t do anything, ie, by doing nothing….There’s really nothing there that needs any help to maintain itself…

    Are you talking about mindfulness of impermanence, noticing change, and if so what's your approach?

    Yes.....Well nothing is done…There’s a constant flow of conscious awareness through this bundle( five aggregates) of vibrating karmic energy flux (that produces a sense of self ) and most days there’s just enough of this sense of self, to stop ‘it’ from walking out in front of a moving bus ( these are called good days in the conventional/relative sense) but on the odd day “it” might be hit by the bus on numerous occasions, but thanks to this unaided/unhindered constant flow of conscious awareness,(that has become more prominent through ongoing meditative practice) it manages to promptly bounce back up ( The moving bus being "Anicca" ... "Dukkha" being the exhaust BTW)

    It’s an ongoing work in progress-self maintenance, no spanners required …. :wink:

    "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya " ( Nothing whatsoever should be clung to)

    lobster
  • Could be the name of a rock group? Bad Meditation >:)

    WalkerShoshinlobster
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @Jeffrey said:
    Could be the name of a rock group? Bad Meditation >:)

    Like "Bad Company"

  • marcitkomarcitko Explorer

    For reasons as outlined in another post, I had concluded that I'd never make a decent meditator, never achieve anything spiritual and never attain any measure of "personal development". But I remembered that I liked meditation and would just do it anyway. As I figured I was bad-all-out I figured I would just do bad meditation. I sat down and actually tried to do it as bad as possible.

    Think! Think! Get lost in thought! Arise fear! Arise horny! Arise hungry! Turned out to be one of the most interesting sessions ever. I can highly reccomend this method, if nothing else then for entertainment value. Now, after several weeks of meditation, I've become a bit better at it again - but I have the sense I've lost something interesting.

    silver
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    Hi @marcitko. You said, "Now, after several weeks of meditation, I've become a bit better at it again - but I have the sense I've lost something interesting." What do you think you lost? I'm curious. :)

  • marcitkomarcitko Explorer

    @silver I have the idea to become a good meditator again... and that through much time/practice I will somehow attain something. So I lost the innocence of that first session/s (first after several years).

    Will sit tonight and attempt really bad meditation again :D

    silverlobsterDavid
  • @marcitko LOL - bravo! One retreat course I was on, the teacher said regarding sadhana, 'Your head is full of junk, why not fill it with good junk'. This is the whole basis of mantrayana and Pureland Buddhism. Sure that may not be as lofty as more insight based practices BUT it is a start. I was back on breath counting yesterday. Today I may end up focussed on a mantra. There is no such thing as bad news in journalism. It is all news. Even bad meditation is good.
    Is cunning plan.

    marcitko
  • @David said:
    To me, meditation is the kind of good that has no opposite. Even if it goes horribly wrong, there is a lesson to be learned.

    B)

    Good post. Particularly liked and agree with the above. Meditation is awareness not preferences or labels. We are on a path beyond non-duality and forks in the path (spoons in my case). Our meditation knowledge, practice and dedication is the way of the elect Buddhists (Ye Olde Sangha). Use meditation, abuse it, better it ...

    We are heading for Nirvana and no bad-ass is gonna stop us. <3

    Iz plan!

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @lobster said:

    We are heading for Nirvana and no bad-ass is gonna stop us. <3

    Wanna bet ? Our monkey mind begs to differ :wink: :lol:

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited March 2016

    Would one call this bad meditation? What could go wrong if mindfulness is maintained?

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited March 2016

    @pegembara said:
    Would one call this bad meditation?

    Pretty much.
    Where do all those women and demons come from? ... a Boddhisattvah and pre-Buddha? Tsk, tsk - bad Shakyamuni Yogi Dharmakaya ...

    Happy to report my breath counting this morning was more or less like @pegembara pic ... apart from the bad hairstyle and day glow head. :p Yesterday I chanted to Amitabha at the end of the breath counting. Today only trees, breath and fantasy.

    Tomorrow might breath count with eyes open ... o:)

    Nirvana is absent. Hooray. Think I iz doing good ... or iz it bad ... mmm ... Beginners Mind! Engage!

  • Thanks guys,

    Been putting it all into perspective. In alchemy there is a term I feel is useful. 'Coagulate and dissolve'. It means sometimes we have to focus and bring our being together and sometimes disperse or relax our attention.

    I was dissolving too much, now coagulating.

    This morning my wildly wandering mind was coagulated on 'Namu Amitabha' - a mantra. My eyes were open and lightly focussed on a spot a few feet ahead on the floor. This return to eyes open seems helpful, natural/appropriate again.

    We're good.

    Shoshin
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited April 2016

    @federica said:
    @iamthezenmaster , you might find this article - long and wordy, I admit - of interest

    Interesting indeed. I can relate in some ways for my spiritual practise has both some Buddhist and Esotorical elements in it.

    Thank you for pointing out some nuances in general to the matter.

  • I feel nuance become very subtle.

    For example in the picture that @pegembara posted, the arisings (unless one considers them external) can be present without any need to fear or indulge them.
    Meditation becomes attention, with arisings as just part of our attention. Awareness without settling or being unsettled.

    Meditation moves into relaxed attention on attention.

    ZendoLord84
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