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The perception of phenomena
Jeroen
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
Would you agree that whatever arises, arises within our consciousness? I have been studying the five universal mental factors, and it all seems to be driven by what happens within the senses. Those are the 5 major external senses, and our sense of what happens in our mind. When I see something, this can cause certain reactions to arise, but whatever arises, does so within my consciousness. Even for thoughts to arise, they do so within my awareness of my sense of the inside of my mind.
Conversely, when my consciousness is absent or otherwise occupied, like when I am asleep or dreaming, sensory phenomena no longer arise, except when it is so loud that it wakes me? Does that sound right to you?
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What are the 5 universal mental factors? Are they called indiryas some places?
Like the old if a tree fell in a forest and no one was there to hear it would it make a sound? The consequence of the tree falling would create concussion waves in the air that would travel through space but it requires ears and a brain to interpret that into a sound. Take that a step further and imagine an android without an inner conscious world, it would pick up the vibrations and its CPU would interpret it into a sound for all practical purposes but without consciousness could it ever be said to experience sound?
In Indian philosophical circles there is the notion that even in dreamless sleep a subtle level of awareness remains. I don't know the ins and outs of the details but its an idea that is out there.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS689US689&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Dreamless+Sleep,+the+Embodied+Mind,+and+Consciousness+-+Open+M
Yes. In consciousness.
Enlightenment does not arise, arrive or leave 'in consciousness' but one can be aware of it, through our consciousness (where else?)
Would you agree that whatever arises, arises within our consciousness?
Without consciousness, you would know nothing. That means the person is dead, in deep sleep or anesthetized.
Even if you aren't any of the above, if you are not paying attention to that thing eg. breath - it is as if that thing doesn't exist. Things only appear to exist when consciousness makes contact with them.
It's a now you see and now you don't thing.
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html
I think in Hindu Advaita there are traditionally four levels of awareness, ie waking, dreaming, deep sleep and absolute. Absolute transcends the previous three. I find this more comprehensive than the Buddhist model in some ways.
Or in our mind? Consciousness always has an object and mind is the sixth sense-base in Buddhism.
Just curious. How so in terms of direct experience? Is the absolute that which experiences waking, dreaming, deep sleep? If deep sleep is experienced, doesn't that mean that the sleep isn't deep enough?
Yes. But then the question is, do things arise outside of our consciousness, and only later impinge on it?
For example, I don't have an internal narrator, and generally don't hear my thoughts. I can still think, obviously, but it seems to be a continuous emergence of words, mind-actions, on the verbal level, which is preceded by a "process of thinking" on which I have little or no visibility. My thinking is as if I am moving some internal limb, a structure that generates thought not much more complex than a pump or a wheel, and as long as I crank the handle for a while at the end words come out. That is how it seems.
There is a process of discernment involved as well. Sometimes I pause in thought, to compose words or thinking, but I have no idea exactly why. It is like there is a little light on my 'thinking pump' which says it's not ready yet, create more space!
I think the absolute level is qualitatively different to the other three and corresponds to realisation. Even in deep sleep there is residual awareness, so you can be woken by a loud noise or being shaken. This model corresponds better with my practical experience than the Buddhist model, where there are no "degrees" of consciousness, you're either conscious of something or you're not.
In the suttas consciousness arises in dependence on sense-base and sense-object. So for example eye-consciousness arises in dependence on the eye and visible form.
See the first main paragraph here for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.044.than.html
Similarly mind consciousness arises in dependence on the mind ( sense-base ) and thoughts ( sense-objects ).
I have an awareness of thoughts in my mind and sometimes an internal narrator, though I agree the boundaries can be blurred, particularly when we're involved in speech and action.
There is the bhavanga state which corresponds with with deep sleep and rebirth consciousness. Of course this is mainly in the Abhidhamma commentaries.
What about turiya consciousness? Doesn't that correspond to the arahant consciousness?
To see that core of consciousness to be empty is liberating. It means that whether you know happiness or you know suffering, whether you know confusion or you know clarity, you realize that this is just empty consciousness, playing a game with you, making you think that this is real.
http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/articles/item/1193-the-ending-of-things.html
The relative reality of all that we experience in waking and dream cannot be correctly judged from either of these two states. When we are dreaming, we mistake everything that we experience in that dream to be real, but when we are in our present waking state, we understand that everything that we experienced in that dream is actually a figment of our imagination. Just as we can correctly judge the reality of all that we experienced in dream only when we step outside that dream into our present waking state, so we will be able to judge correctly the reality of all that we experience now in this so-called waking state only when we step outside it into some other state that transcends it.
http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2007/02/our-waking-life-is-just-another-dream.html
One can increase their awareness in dream state and control it, it's not just something that happens to us but something we can alter. We aren't always in a state of not realizing we are dreaming.
I was going to interject the same thing by asking how lucid dreaming fits in with this.
@person The difference between Buddhism and Advaita is that instead of the turiya consciousness is being eternal it is not so in Buddhism. But that is way beyond my grade.
"Friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'
"In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html
As I have said many times - You are not that!
Clearly there is awareness involved, so it's like another level of consciousness. It's rather like the transitional state between waking and sleeping, I work with that sometimes.
Great posts guys.
Learning a lot from @pegembara posts in particular, which show the depth of sutra wisdom effecting the mahayana upstarts.
Western psychology has a very good developing and in many ways superior handle on perception and consciousness. Vedanta, Buddhism and Mysticism are also aware of another state which is only beginning to be understood and studied by our fledgling mind scientists.
Each tradition describes this state of being differently, 'Cloud of Unknowing', Grace, Sunyata, Suchness etc. All of them are experiential and their study is going to be problematic.
It still begs the question of who or what focuses on the arising and passing away?
What is left when the "I am" conceit/desire/obsession is obliterated?
Same here.
Great advice from a master.
If you don't stop asking, there is no end to it. In other words, when suffering is ended, all questions like these also ends. What's left is total freedom or liberation from the cycle.
Yes it does. Moreover, this is the true foundation of investigating the mind. This path leads deep, and it's paved with revelations.
Form ( sense gates+objects=mental & physical) Consciousness (awareness) Sensation ( contact through the 6 sense gates) Perception ( recognise/recall/comparing data received ) Mental formation ( habitual reaction to stimuli activating sense gate consciousnesses)
Sensory phenomena arise through the sense gates of ......
Eyes-Ears-Nose-Tongue-Body-"Mind"
The mind 'is' the sixth sense gate, when we sleep the phenomena arising are mind base...
On the surface level (Basic Buddhism) Mind & Consciousness are often interchangeable...On a more subtle level lies the labyrinth that separates them into states.....
The above is 'roughly' how it is seen through my simple mind's eye ie, minus the complexity ...well for the time being anyway