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Jonangpa
Simonthepilgrim
Veteran
Vacchagotta posted a link to the New York-based Jonang Foundation. Having surfed the site, which is quite beautiful, I have a couple of non-doctrinal questions which I hope someone can answer:
1. If the 5th Dalai Lama 'sealed and banned' zhetong, what is the attitude of the present DL and his relationship with Jonang?
2. The history refers to "17th century Geluk persecution". Has anyone any more information on this, please?
Thanks
Link:
Jonang Foundation - The Living Tradition
1. If the 5th Dalai Lama 'sealed and banned' zhetong, what is the attitude of the present DL and his relationship with Jonang?
2. The history refers to "17th century Geluk persecution". Has anyone any more information on this, please?
Thanks
Link:
Jonang Foundation - The Living Tradition
0
Comments
Not that I would ever wish to get these two started on this topic again, but Namdrol and emptyuniverse from E-sangha would probably know a lot about this particular subject. Emptyuniverse seems to be pro-shentong (gzhan stong) while Namdrol appear to be anti-shentong, and both have a wealth of information to present for each side. Namdrol has the added advantage of having read and translated numerous Tibetan texts and commentaries. At any rate, if you want some good solid information concerning this subject, I would suggest asking these two and just ignore the bickering in between.
Jason
Love ya'll,
Bobby
I have no details whatsoever on point number 2. Perhaps some info is given in one of the several books available?
The funny thing is that the Gelukpas owe many of their most important tantric lineages of teaching to the Jonangpa. They confiscated the monasteries, burned many of the texts and woodblocks, suppressed propagation of the lineage, etc...calling it crypto-hinduism (as if that is a bad thing).
HHDL is a dzogchen practitioner. Dzogchen teachings are of necessity shentong as they talk of primordial purity and spontaneous presence-- things that have exclusive rangtongpas frothing at the mouth. I am not sure that I have heard him address the debate directly. One has to be clear that this is not an either-or situation. Shentongpas believe that the rangtong approach is a necessary first step to understanding (see Karmapa's "No Shentong without Rangtong"). In this way, I am sure that HHDL makes use of both types of reasoning as do the the Nyingma and Kagyu in their philosophical approach.
I agree that the Hookham book is the best read on this issue. It is a really fun book to read on top of it all, being elegantly written with superb research.
As to the persecution in the 17th century, that applies to the aforementioned closing of monasteries et al by the 5th DL. A real nasty bit of business, which unfortunately has been standard operating procedure for the Geluk school throughout much of its lifetime: argumentation, conflict and war. This is less a doctrinal question though than a bald-faced grab for power and wealth using a veneer of philosophical justification. Fortunately, it appears that several remote monasteries escaped the persecution and we are seeing this modern renaissance.
Best regards,
Namgyal
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Hashang
All good stuff.
the current Dalai Lama is sympathetic to the Jonangpa and their interpretation of emptiness and the third turning.
His Holiness isnt a shentongpa but he recognizes it as a valid Tibetan tradition.
Personally, I think the shentong is off the mark.
namo buddhaya
The Zhentong view of emptiness was taught by the Buddha, elaborated in India, and later transmitted in Tibet. Among the early Tibetan authors on Zhentong was Yumo Mikyo Dorje, an 11th century Kalachakra yogi. He was a disciple of Somanatha, the Sanskrit Pandit and Kalachakra master from Kashmir who translated the Vimalaprabha into Tibetan with Dro Lotsawa. Yumo Mikyo Dorje received the Zhentong teachings while practicing the Kalachakra six-branch yoga in the Mt. Kailash area of Western Tibet, and later taught Zhentong as a "secret doctrine" (lkog pa'i chos) to his closest disciples.
In 1294, Kunpang Tukje Tsondru (1243-1313) founded a monastery in Jomonang, which gave the name to the lineage. This monastery was modeled on the traditional design of the Kingdom of Shambhala. Tukje Tsondru also arranged and gathered the Six Yoga Kalachakra practice traditions that existed in Tibet at that time.
Kunkhyen Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen (1292-1361) settled in Jomonang after studying each of the existing Buddhist traditions in Tibet, including Kagyu, Nyingma, and Sakya (in which he was ordained). Kunchen Dolpopa served as abbot of Jonang Monastery, and in the year 1333 completed the Great Stupa of Jonang.
Kunkhyen Dolpopa was the first Jonang master to extensively teach Zhentong. In his most famous work, Mountain Dharma: Ocean of Definitive Meaning (ri chos nges don rgya mtsho), Kunkhyen Dolpopa clarified the Zhentong view. These are referred to as the teachings of the "Heart's Essence" (snying po'i don). As Kunkhyen Dolpopa's Mountain Dharma and other Jonang texts were banned in the 17th century, they became extremely rare. In the 1970s and 1980s a few of these texts were re-discovered and re-printed, notably through the agency of His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
The Jonang produced a number of renowned Buddhist scholars. Among these was Jetsun Taranatha (1575-1634), who founded Takten Phuntsok Ling Monastery (near Shigatse). He is widely known as one of the greatest scholars, historians, and practitioners of his time. Two of Jetsun Taranatha's best known works are his History of Buddhism in India and Origins of the Tara Tantra (The Golden Rosary).
Given the true establishment of Buddha nature (tathagatagarbha) in all sentient beings, the Jonangpa propounded the value of non-action and non-striving, which the Gelukpa associated with the teachings of medieval Chan Buddhism in China (Zen Buddhism in Japan). While the Gelukpa embraced the Jonang teaching on the Kalachakra, they ultimately opposed the Jonang for the Zhentong teachings.
In the mid 17th century, the Jonang came under attack by the Geluk under the rule of the 5th Dalai Lama. The Geluk declared the Zhentong view of emptiness to be heretical, sealed Jonang libraries, burned Jonang books, and forcibly closed or annexed Jonang monasteries.
Modern historians have identified two other reasons which likely led the Gelukpa to suppress the Jonang. First, the Jonangpa taught that large gifts of property to monasteries did not help one achieve enlightenment. This undercut the financial practices of the Gelukpa, who were growing rapidly through those very means.
Second, and more significantly, the Jonangpa had political ties that were very vexing to the Gelukpa. The Jonangpa, along with the Kagyupa, were historical allies of the powerful house of Tsang, which was vying with the 5th Dalai Lama for control of central Tibet.
Following this repression, it was generally believed that the Jonang tradition had become extinct. However, as many as seventy Jonang monasteries are still active in isolated areas of Tibet and China, including the main monastery called Tsangwa, located in Dzamthang, and others in the Amdo region.
Today, Dzamthang Tsangwa Monastery is home to approximately 1,500 monks, and there are more than 5,000 Jonang monks in this remote region of Tibet. There are also Jonang practice centers in China, Taiwan, Nepal, and the USA. As a gesture of his support, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama gifted the Jonang their first and only monastery in exile in Shimla, Northern India. Takten Phuntsok Ling Monastery is now the main center for the Jonang outside of Tibet.
For the initial 300-years of the Jonangpa, the primary lineage-heir was the master who held the seat of Jomonang, and later of Jetsun Taranatha's Takten Damcho Ling Monastery (Phuntsok Ling). Since that time, although the spiritual authority of the Jonang has never rested on any one individual, the abbot of Dzamthang Tsangwa Monastery has held great authority and influence within the tradition.
Recently, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama appointed the 9th Kalkha Rinpoche to oversee the affairs of the Jonang monastery in Shimla, India, Takten Phuntsok Choling. Honoring the claim that Khalkha Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Jetsun Taranatha, His Holiness has also appointed him as the main representative for the Jonang. However, Kalkha Rinpoche is effectively the head of the Geluk tradition in Mongolia, and thus perhaps not the most suitable candidate to represent and expound the teachings of Kunkhyen Dolpopa and the Jonang masters.
Under these conditions, with the officially designated leadership of the lineage schooled in Geluk (rangtong) doctrine and formally affiliated with the sect that instituted the 17th century persecution, and in obedience to our Teacher, Kyabje Tashi Norbu Rinpoche, we have chosen to remain faithful to the original Jonang practice of avoiding official designations of leadership, and allowing the quality and power of the Dharma activities of each Teacher and Sangha to manifest unimpeded.
mangalam
Jonang Tashi Nyima
namaste
The Jonang teaching is based on the union of the Profound View and Vast Conduct lineages of the Protectors Nagarjuna and Asanga, neither overestimating nor denigrating either, and is therefore called the 'Definitive Meaning'.
While some schools give 'provisional' status to the First, Second, or Third turnings of the Wheel of Dharma, Kunkhyen Dolpopa established that the Definitive Meaning can be found in all three if one applies the correct method of analysis and relies on the direct perception of samadhi.
While the Tathagata sutras are certainly embraced (especially the Uttaratantra) by Jonangpas, so are all the Teachings of the Buddha, without exception.
mangalam
Tashi Nyima
The whole idea of Shentong is a pretty strong contradiction of the teachings of Nagarjuna and Asanga.
Dear Friend
om svasti
Regarding the implicative negation in zhentong, there are Four Marks of Ultimate Reality, as taught in the Tathagarbha sutras:
True Purity: the luminous clarity of emptiness, free from subject, free from object
True Self: pristine non-dual identity, endowed with all the qualities of enlightenment (the ten forces, the four guarantees, the four perfect awarenesses, and the eighteen unshared qualities)
True Bliss: non-referential, non-temporal, and non-local
True Permanence: spontaneous compassion
The truth body (dharmakaya) is permanent by essence.
The glorious body (sambhogakaya) is permanent by nature.
The manifest body (nirmanakaya) is permanent by continuity.
mangalam
om svasti
The Yogachara and Madhyamaka teachings are not contradicted, but rather included in the zhentong View. All phenomena are mere appearances (parikalpita) to dual consciousness (paratantra), and therefore self-empty. The wholly established nature (parinispanna) is non-dual, pristine awareness, and therefore empty-of-other (i.e., of the imaginary and the dependent natures).
Please do not confuse superficial mis-representations of the teachings of Arya Nagarjuna and Arya Asanga for their actual teachings. In his Praise of the Dharmadhatu, Arya Nagarjuna dispels the notion that his view is that of a non-implicative negation.
Both of these Great Masters are patriarchs of the Maha Madhyamaka (Great Middle Way). If interested, please study The Fourth Council and Autocommentary of the Omniscient Dolpopa, for a more thorough exposition. You can find an excellent translation in Cyrus Stearn's The Buddha From Dolpo.
mangalam
Dear Friend
om svasti
I honor and respect your right to agree or disagree with any view. However, statements of personal opinion hardly constitute a refutation of established doctrine. My previous posts were made in response to a sincere question, without polemical intent.
There are many gates to the Dharma, and we enter through whichever gate is more suitable to our conditioned nature and accessible to our current level of understanding. It is not helpful to dismiss the views of others without articulating a coherent refutation according to scripture and meditational attainment.
While we may not agree with their chosen paths, all children of the Victor are entitled to consideration and basic respect for their doctrines and practice, as are all sentient beings. Unless we are capable of gently guiding others to a clearer understanding of the Dharma, we should refrain from unfounded criticism.
Please forgive any offense of omission or commission.
May your view and practice lead you to ultimate enlightenment.
May all the lineages of the teachings of the Victor flourish.
mangalam
Shentong contradicts a score of basic and established Buddhist philosophical and practical doctrines.
There is no need for me to spend the time refuting your views on this forum since there is a whole boatload of books available in English that solidly and correctly refute Shentong available for anyone who wishes to read them.
Dear Friend
om svasti
There is a "whole boatload of books" that refute everything that has ever been taught, including "basic and established Buddhist philosophical and practical doctrines". If we do not want to "spend the time" substantiating our opinions, perhaps it would be best to remain silent.
mangalam
They arent my opinions though and they are fully substantiated in the writings of Nagarjuna, Gorampa, Sakya Pandita, Aryadeva, Tsongkhapa, Mipham and just about everybody else with the exception of a few sympathizers.
Thats just fine, Jonang is a distinct lineage with a lot to offer. You should be presenting those rather than defending the viewpoint that puts them on the fringe in the first place.
Sure we all have our differences
Its nice to see a Jonang practitoner again !
Of course im sure you wouldnt want to dredge this thread into shameless sectarianism. Rejoicing in others practise is the best.
The Jonang got a raw deal back in the old days and were persecuted relentlessly for their views on emptiness.
Its really unfortunate that they were treated so badly for a philosophical difference.
om svasti
I am sure that your Venerable Teachers have explained to you the virtues of Right Speech, and do not condone rudeness. Please do not disrespect them, if you cannot muster respect for other members of the ordained Sangha.
One can hold diverse views on matters of doctrine without resorting to dismissive and corrosive speech, which often leads to actions that are regrettable, such as the persecutions and abuses of power perpetrated by the Gelukpa in the 17th century.
Please note that in dismissing zhentong as 'false', you judge your understanding to be superior to that of Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye, Dza Patrul Rinpoche, Ju Mipham, Dilgo Khyentse, Penor Rinpoche, Kalu Rinpoche, Dudjom Rinpoche, Thrangu Rinpoche, and many other great masters. I have purposely omitted Jonangpas from this list, as you have already expressed your disregard for our lineage.
I wish you all success in your study and practice.
mangalam
We can disagree with people and teachers on certain opinions or viewpoints without "judging my understanding to be superior" to theirs. Thats a ridiculous assertion. We dont have to agree with everything people say in order to respect or find value in their points of view.
I didnt disregard your lineage either, I have already stated that the Jonang is a legitimate lineage with a lot to offer. I just dont buy the Zhentong is in line with Nagarjuna's view argument. Just because I disagree with something doesnt mean I am painting an entire lineage with the same brush. You're projecting something that simply isnt there and youre being defensive.
I apologize if I came off as rude. I found an earlier post of yours to be heavy handed and I responded to it.
I appreciate the depth of your knowledge on this subject, and the clarity with which you present it. Those with the deepest knowledge are not always the most effective communicators, alas! But your posts are clear and informative.
Are you a Buddhist scholar or historian, perhaps?
Yes im familiar with the feeling.
But then again who would speak out against such non virtues committed against those you dont agree with...It seems the culture has been more or less to try and throughly obliterate your opponents through the use of political and spiritual opposition. Something very un-Dharma like that we should be mindful of when speaking to others.
Once again Tashi it is nice to see you here.
om svasti
Thank you for your kind words. It is not my objective to enter into sectarian polemics. A question was posed, and i replied from the only perspective i am bound by samaya to present, which is that received from my Teachers.
Everyone is entitled to her or his view. I fully respect that right, and would pray for similar treatment. We do not live in a feudal theocracy, where a particular interpretation of the Dharma can be imposed through the exercise of force, coercion, or defamation, without even a cursory attempt at rational discussion of the differences in question.
I am neither scholar nor historian, but a simple monk, attempting to share with others what i have found to be of benefit in my limited understanding and experience. Perhaps because of the history of my lineage (among many others that have been persecuted over the ages), i am sensitive to expressions that --however well intended-- have been and may be again utilized to justify repression.
Unfortunately, the history of Buddhism is rife with such sectarian animus, which benefits no one.
May all the lineages of the teaching of the Conqueror flourish.
May they become the gates for all sentient beings to enter the Dharma.
mangalam
I can be a jerk sometimes and I was a jerk in this thread.
I in no way wish to belittle or dismiss your lineage.
I actually find it quite fascinating and regret making a negative first impression with you.
peace
sn
om svasti
Thank you for humoring this lowly monk, habituated to old and foreign customs. I salute you with folded hands, and beg your forgiveness for presuming to offer instruction.
Please include me in your prayers.
mangalam
I'm glad I'm wrong though, because it's good to have a monk here. I have often considered becoming a monk myself.
May I ask what is the lineage of your monastery, Tashi?
Thanks for sharing.
om svasti
My Root Teacher sent me to work 'in the world', and instructed me to use technology as best as possible, since most people today (unlike in olden times) never set foot in a monastery.
We have established a humble center, New Jonang, and have a small Sangha here in Texas. We are New Jonangpas (Great Middle Way Buddhists). Life here is not fundamentally different from life in the monastery.
I am actually a bit of a natural luddite and techno-phobe, so 'hanging out online' is part of my duties. At other times, i study, meditate, write, teach various Vajrayoga classes, lead a meditation group, mentor a few sincere Dharma friends, and hold regular Sangha at two different locations.
mangalam
You will find many ordained especially those with compassion, will seek out others in order to try and help them, As Tashi has said how many people pass a monastry these days ?
I aspire to live such a focused life.
I've had the privilege of staying at Shasta Abbey (a Zen monastery in Northern California) on three occasions. While I was there, I felt I was becoming the best version of myself that I've ever been.
I'm longing to go back again, for a longer stay.
Dear Friend
om svasti
If that is your strong aspiration, it will come to pass. Not overnight, but it will come to pass.
mangalam
I look forward to reading more of your posts here!
Please forgive me for retracing this discussion thread after it concluded so amicably.However I for one would love to learn more from both of you.
I understand that Shenpen Nangwa believes that Shentong is a fringe view that violates " established Buddhist philosophical and practical doctrines" Can you Shenpen be so kind as to provide your reasoning and evidence for saying this? Also can you clarify what you define as "established" ?
If Right View leads to more beneficial method and practice and wrong view leads to it's opposite which erroneous or harmful methods and practices do you think a Shentong view leads too? Which more enlightened activities and methods do you think Rantong leads too?
In other words what difference in method and practice do each of these views lead too? Jonangpa Tashi Nyima can you please respond to this as well?
mangalam
Yeshe
Also can you please list specific Buddhist principles and practices you think Shentong contradicts or violates
Thank You,
Yeshe
What does this tell us? What questions does it beg in your mind?
I think Shenpen's statement below is worthy of debate/exploration/discussion and elucidation by a teacher with realizations :
"We can disagree with people and teachers on certain opinions or viewpoints without "judging my understanding to be superior" to theirs. Thats a ridiculous assertion. We dont have to agree with everything people say in order to respect or find value in their points of view'
Here are a couple questions that spring to mind :
1) On what sound basis can or should we question highly realized, Bodhisattva and scholarly teachers? ( reason, experience, knowledge, realization ?)
2) How is disagreeing in any different than thinking our view is better /superior to theirs?
3) Is it arrogance to do so and to think our opinions and views to be in any way superior to these great teachers?
4) Would it be more skillful to simply admit we are not able at our particular stage of cultivation to understand , follow or apply a particular teaching by a particular realized teacher and leave it at that?
What do you think ?
Also seems to me disagreeing or contradicting a realized or fully enlightened teacher is not equivalent to doing so to with a regular Samsaric being / friend/family/colleague /peer etc.
why call someone who did a cultural genocide "great"? (The great fifth)
Good question.
This is why political and spiritual power are a dangerous combo, Out of respect for him as a spiritual master they called him " Holy ", out of respect for his political position they called him " Great " detractors beware there was never any room for disagreement, All great men have their fanatics who follow them the great being Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was murdered by attendents of the Great 5th over perceived issue of whom was better.
Politics and Religion as a combo is a no no.
Samsara requires renunciation Buddha choose to follow the Holy life, He could not have been a Great king as well.
Wonderful friend