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A Budding Buddhist in the Philippines

Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

Good day! I've been reading Lama Surya Das's Letting Go of the Person You Used to Be for a couple of weeks now and I am quite intrigued at the same time fascinated. Buddhism matches my worldview/philosophies/principles, though I am affiliated with the Evangelicals (but I prefer labeling myself as a theist). I am a turned theist to be exact. I was into agnosticism then came a time when I became an atheist (I was raised in a Christian family by the way. My mom and dad are both elders in the church).

I am very much interested to know more a about Buddhism, to seek truth, and to understand and appreciate complexities.
By the way, I would like to raise some questions/arguments and probably you could clarify the points. It would shed some light, really. So here it goes:

[a] Is Buddhism an organized religion or more of philosophy?
[b] Buddhism is the same as as pantheism
[c] If reincarnation is real, how come our number (population) still increase since the soul can fit in only into one particular body?
[d] I have read that Buddhism does not believe in God or a god(esses), is this true to all categories/types of Buddhism?
[e] How were we created in the Buddhist point of view?
[g] Are there monks or teachers of Buddhism (I don't what they are called) here in the Philippines? I seriously want to have a long discussion with them even if I am from Ilocos Norte.

Thank you!

«13

Comments

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited June 2016

    Hello. :)

    @Markus_Louis said:

    [a] Is Buddhism an organized religion or more of philosophy?

    It is organised in many different ways or disorganised in my case and can be thought of as a way of living based on a philosophy.

    [b] Buddhism is the same as pantheism?

    No.

    [c] If reincarnation is real, how come our number (population) still increase since the soul can fit in only into one particular body?

    Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation or heaven and hell realms as anything more than processes or states of mind ...

    [d] I have read that Buddhism does not believe in God or a god(esses), is this true to all categories/types of Buddhism?

    Atheist and/or gods and goddesses (yidams) can be ones approach to dharma (Buddhist teaching)

    [e] How were we created in the Buddhist point of view?

    Que?
    Evolution mostly.

    [g] Are there monks or teachers of Buddhism (I don't what they are called) here in the Philippines? I seriously want to have a long discussion with them even if I am from Ilocos Norte.

    Maybe. Try Googling ...

    Thank you!

    Welcome.

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Gee, thanks @lobster! Though you could elucidate me the difference between non-theist and atheist. It's almost the same.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Markus_Louis said:
    Good day! I've been reading Lama Surya Das's Letting Go of the Person You Used to Be for a couple of weeks now and I am quite intrigued at the same time fascinated. Buddhism matches my worldview/philosophies/principles, though I am affiliated with the Evangelicals (but I prefer labeling myself as a theist). I am a turned theist to be exact. I was into agnosticism then came a time when I became an atheist (I was raised in a Christian family by the way. My mom and dad are both elders in the church).

    I am very much interested to know more a about Buddhism, to seek truth, and to understand and appreciate complexities.
    By the way, I would like to raise some questions/arguments and probably you could clarify the points. It would shed some light, really. So here it goes:

    [a] Is Buddhism an organized religion or more of philosophy?
    [b] Buddhism is the same as as pantheism
    [c] If reincarnation is real, how come our number (population) still increase since the soul can fit in only into one particular body?
    [d] I have read that Buddhism does not believe in God or a god(esses), is this true to all categories/types of Buddhism?
    [e] How were we created in the Buddhist point of view?
    [g] Are there monks or teachers of Buddhism (I don't what they are called) here in the Philippines? I seriously want to have a long discussion with them even if I am from Ilocos Norte.

    Thank you!

    Welcome @Markus_Louis !

    a) It is whatever you want it to be. I practice it as a religion.

    b) No

    c) In Tibetan Buddhism (which I practice) we are just mental continuum's (no souls involved) that manifest in one of the physical or non-physical realms depending on our karma. I guess you could then say that more people are creating the causes to be born in the human realm than before. Or you could just say it's all a load of bollocks! :)

    d) Pretty much - Tibetan Buddhism worships certain dieties but my understanding is that it's a hangover from their pre-Buddhist (Bon) days.

    e) Buddhism isn't about how we were created or who created us, it's about getting out of samsara. That can only be done in the present moment. No use worrying about those kind of questions.

    g) Google will help you with that.

    Good luck!

    Jeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2016

    [a] Is Buddhism an organized religion or more of philosophy?

    Well both. What basis should I use to say which is more important? Well there are the five certainties. These are not commonly known unlike the 4NT the 8fp and the 5 precepts. But despite not being known the five certainties are that for a Buddhist teaching there is: a teacher (could be an author), a collection of students (or even 1), a teaching that is taught, a time, and a place. There isn't a teaching without those 5.

    [b] Buddhism is the same as as pantheism

    Maybe but the idea of God is not a creator. Some buddhist teachers belittle teaching about a God or ridicule that Buddha (God?) would create samsara. Buddha taught how to be free of samsara. God is more like 'nature of awareness' (as in all beings great and small) in my thinking than a creator. I don't know if this is found in some sense in all schools but certainly the trikaya in Tibetan Buddhism. But the trikaya is very different from Yahweh, Jesus, and Elohim (at least as reported by Baptists etc).

    **[c] If reincarnation is real, how come our number (population) still increase since the soul can fit in only into one particular body?
    **

    Multiverse? Traditional some Buddhism does say that there are many in hell compared to human. And many human compared to Gods. So with that more humans are promoted from hell (or animal or hungry ghost) as compared to very few demoted from heaven.

    Edit also thought of this that in Buddhism a Buddha can manifest infinitely. So we could all just be rays of the sun of dharmakaya or in a different setting the magical powers of a Buddha is that they can manifest infinitiely.

    [d] I have read that Buddhism does not believe in God or a god(esses), is this true to all categories/types of Buddhism?

    No there are gods and goddesses. There was already Brahmanism in India and Buddha talked to many of these and gods and goddesses I believe can be found in early Buddhism. I think these are from Indoeuropean culture though rather than from Abrahamic culture. So a different flavor such as Indra. I think there are some creator or major deities like Vishnu and some followers of deistic religion could say Buddha (and Krishna) etc are avatars of Vishnu (or Shiva or Brahma). But that's not really Buddhism. In Buddhism Buddha is not a deity and a deity is not 'awake' (fully enlightened).

    [e] How were we created in the Buddhist point of view?

    Karma. Cause and effect.

    **[g] Are there monks or teachers of Buddhism (I don't what they are called) here in the Philippines? I seriously want to have a long discussion with them even if I am from Ilocos Norte.
    **

    I think there are some collected searches on the internet to help locate local resources. Tricycle, access to insight, and some others maybe. Here is one from buddhanet:
    http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/

    I look forward to your questions and comments!

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Thank you, @Bunks! Bout your point C: The author of the book (Lama Surya Das) that I am reading right now is with Tibetan Buddhism.

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Thank you, @Jeffrey! What do you think about the Aganna Sutta? Some say that it is best viewed as a satire & not a literal description of how human society began.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    I have not heard of the Aganna Sutta. I looked on wikipedia and sounds interesting.

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    As far as I know @lobster @Bunks @Jeffrey , Pantheism and Buddhism adhere to "being one with the nature". Can we make a conclusion then that Buddhism is more likely to be with atheism?

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Another question, @lobster @Bunks @Jeffrey. Is legit to call someone a Buddhist even if s/he does not believe or disregard some of the teachings ? How would you call them? Btw, I have read that "Buddhism is not the type of religion you have to sign up to and commit yourself to believing everything it teaches".

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    I see @Jeffrey. I had transactions with Buddhist monks in the Philippines as well as Brazil for a couple of days now. A Buddhist monk from Brazil, recommended me that literature.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2016

    @Markus_Louis said:
    As far as I know @lobster @Bunks @Jeffrey , Pantheism and Buddhism adhere to "being one with the nature". Can we make a conclusion then that Buddhism is more likely to be with atheism?

    On what basis would we do that? In my head I have to think really hard to see what is meant by pantheism or atheism. I literally never hear those terms in Buddhist study. I tend to think atheism is a reaction to theism. But was the local religion before buddha theistic? I don't think it was. I think Buddha more developed the shramana ideas and furthermore 'turned the wheel of dharma' which was completely new to the world in some sense. The shramana movement was probably a reaction to the caste system with an institutional priesthood. So that is more a parallel to Judaism (had a hereditory priesthood). Was there a counter movement to the Jewish priesthood in the days of Jesus (or before or after)?

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Yes, there were counter movements. A lot

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2016

    For myself I am a carefully agnostic Buddhist. I live in a city where 90% at least are Christians. I tell Christians I pray for them and I am not lying about that and I am actually careful in that I pray to Jesus if I know someone is Christian. The reason is that if they ask me who I prayed to I can tell them Jesus and they won't be afraid I prayed to what is unknown to them and they might worry is demonic or some such. But I do tend to think atheism is a response to theism. And here too (in USA) there are atheists who will attack Christians for believing in a nursery rhyme or whatever. It is a reaction and wouldn't happen if we didn't have people pushing for religion (prayer etc) in public schools. It is a reaction to theism. If I testify in court I have to put my hand on a Bible even though that is not my belief. Edit: and I cannot marry a man because that is unchristian but not that I want to but many do and can be fired by employer or incarcirated for sodomy etc. pretty serious shit. An amusing read if this is novel to you might be to read about the 'pastafarian' religion which is a reaction to 'forced Christianity'. 'Pastafarians' (a rhyme with rastafarian ie Bob Marley) are worshippers of the wonderful spaghetti deity (pasta = noodles). And as a careful agnostic I hope to see all my Christian friends and housepets in heaven :chuffed:

    jakayob
  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Christian bigotry, eh? :) Well, if you happen to read my lengthy post, I am now with the Evangelicals (though my parents were with the Evangelicals from the beginning). It's just this recent that I have been a 'convert'. Before my 'conversion', I was an agnostic. After some time, I became a deist. Then a de facto atheist. Yes, I believe in the Deity (God of the bible) and worship him (even pray). I also preached the gospel. It might surprise you if I'd tell you that I'd taken basic pastoral course in the Evangelicals :) But I have to admit most of my worldviews fit into Buddhism.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    Yeah my mother is Christian but naturally for her a lot of Buddhism resonates with her. I think having two religions is quite difficult but having things 'resonate' is not so hard. I quite enjoy going to Christian churches. I am curious enough to do like a Bible class but I predict it wouldn't go well unless I did not open my mouth to others hehe.

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    However, one cannot call oneself a Buddhist (i.e. a follower of the Gotama Buddha & his teachings) and at the same time worship Yahweh, Allah or some other Creator God according to a Theravada Buddhist. And he was a Filipino monk actually, a Sukkhadhammo. But he also said that, one can always practice the Buddha's teachings without giving up one's religious affiliations. Sounds contradicting, right? Or may be it just differs because there are various types of Buddhism?

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    A closet Buddhist? :) We're in the same situation, bro.

    Jeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    I like the word pastoral. Means guidance as compared to shepherding. Seems so old world via the medium of comparison to herding animals.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @Markus_Louis said:
    But he also said that, one can always practice the Buddha's teachings without giving up one's religious affiliations. Sounds contradicting, right? Or may be it just differs because there are various types of Buddhism?

    You can accept the four Noble Truths, practice the Eightfold Path and meditation without any requirement to abandon Christ.
    If long term you find Christ is better for you, then your meditation/prayer/contemplation will have deepened. It is not uncommon for Christian monks and nuns to learn and practice Buddhist meditation.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton

    how
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    You can be a Christian and practise Buddhism, but you can't be a Buddhist and practise Christianity.

    Bunks
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited June 2016

    @Markus_Louis said:
    Another question, @lobster @Bunks @Jeffrey. Is legit to call someone a Buddhist even if s/he does not believe or disregard some of the teachings ? How would you call them?

    Nothing.
    Labels not required ...

    I for example am a heretical-part-time-anti-Buddhist on occasion and other times I may inspire people to practice dharma, what is the name for that? Buddhist if you will.

    I refer to myself as a Buddhist but it is a convenience rather than a legal and spiritual binding.

    I know ... I am a 'Fickle-Comedic-Buddhist!' ;)

    JeffreyMarkus_Louis
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2016

    My grandfather who was agnostic was quite pleased that I had Buddhist faithful praying for him when he had a stroke. In that way easy to be inspired. Would you be upset if any spiritualist was praying for your healing particularly if out of friendship or mankinds good nature? Maybe some but not me. But if I demanded he do something to be something or other if it wasn't his path then he would surely reject it.

    lobster
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2016

    @Markus_Louis said:
    Another question, @lobster @Bunks @Jeffrey. Is legit to call someone a Buddhist even if s/he does not believe or disregard some of the teachings ? How would you call them? Btw, I have read that "Buddhism is not the type of religion you have to sign up to and commit yourself to believing everything it teaches".

    One concept I have heard is that if a secure elitist Buddhist considers themselves quite wonderful they can still 'trade' certain Buddhist beliefs with 'barbarians'. The idea is that even though that 'other' cannot believe all you do you can still trade your ideas with them much like you can trade with people outside your city. And I will repeat that it is quite easy to share ideas but quite difficult to (have 2 religions and) compare the Bible to the Koran or the Bible to the Tripitaka or X body of Mahyana sutras or whatever.

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Yes. It is more appropriate, I suppose.

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    @federica, I see.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2016

    Am I bold enough to share a teaching I liked?

    Nirvana
    The Buddha had only one goal; to show how our original "natural state" is nirvana and how to recognize that ever present nirvana today.
    Buddhism is not about having a more relaxed and happy life. Buddhism is only about the realization of nirvana.
    Nirvana is not a state in itself, but is rather the absence of all mental states.
    Nirvana can't be described because it's the absence of all descriptions.
    Nirvana can't be understood because there is nothing about nirvana that can be understood.
    Nirvana is not about total freedom because there is no one in nirvana to exercise that freedom.
    Nirvana is not a "true self", because there is no trace of any self or Self to be found.
    Nirvana is absent of all suffering because neither suffering nor one to suffer, exist in nirvana.
    Nirvana is without desires because nothing is lacking.
    Nirvana is not dependent on any prior causes because nothing can cause nirvana.
    Nirvana can't be found by treading a path, because nirvana has no location to which one can arrive.
    Nirvana has never been attained by anyone, because nirvana is everyone's absence.
    Nirvana is beyond space and time because both are mere empty concepts of mind like timeless space.
    Nirvana is perfect emptiness, where emptiness means the absence of all fiction.
    Nirvana is perfect bliss because nothing can disturb it.
    Nirvana is perfect wisdom because there is nothing else needing to be known.
    Nirvana is perfect unconditional love because there is no reason for it not to be.
    Nirvana and "twofold emptiness" are identical. Twofold emptiness is the absence of a fictional self as well as the absence of one's imaginary world.
    Only through realizing the emptiness or fictional nature of all conceptual constructions is nirvana uncovered.
    Nirvana is the absence of all conceptual constructions; it's not a state or thing in itself, it's simply their absence.

    ~Jackson Peterson (found on Facebook if not in Nirvana)

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Thank you @lobster. That shed some light!

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Then, I could draw the conclusion here. You can practice Buddhism, without necessarily adhering to all of its teachings.

    Jeffreylobster
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    @Markus_Louis said:
    As far as I know @lobster @Bunks @Jeffrey , Pantheism and Buddhism adhere to "being one with the nature". Can we make a conclusion then that Buddhism is more likely to be with atheism?

    Probably. I'd associate pantheism more with Hinduism.

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Could be @SpinyNorman, since there's only a thin line between Hinduism and Buddhism

  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    @Markus_Louis said:
    Could be @SpinyNorman, since there's only a thin line between Hinduism and Buddhism

    That's another discussion. B)

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Yes, there's a thin line between the two; however, I have learned that there are some differences depending on what type of Buddhism a person is affiliated with

    Jeffrey
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    @Markus_Louis said:
    Yes, there's a thin line between the two; however, I have learned that there are some differences depending on what type of Buddhism a person is affiliated with

    The "thin line" is the absence of atman and Brahman in Buddhism.

    lobster
  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    That is one.

  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    @Jeffrey said:> Nirvana is not a state in itself, but is rather the absence of all mental states.
    Nirvana is perfect bliss because nothing can disturb it.
    Nirvana is perfect wisdom because there is nothing else needing to be known.
    Nirvana is perfect unconditional love because there is no reason for it not to be.
    ~Jackson Peterson (found on Facebook if not in Nirvana)

    Absence of all mental states? Aren't bliss, wisdom and love mental states?

    Jeffrey
  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    They are mental states, but as what Buddha taught, these could be illusions. Attaining Nirvana exists and it's not illusion, though.

    Jeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:

    @Jeffrey said:> Nirvana is not a state in itself, but is rather the absence of all mental states.
    Nirvana is perfect bliss because nothing can disturb it.
    Nirvana is perfect wisdom because there is nothing else needing to be known.
    Nirvana is perfect unconditional love because there is no reason for it not to be.
    ~Jackson Peterson (found on Facebook if not in Nirvana)

    Absence of all mental states? Aren't bliss, wisdom and love mental states?

    @SpinyNorman said:

    @Jeffrey said:> Nirvana is not a state in itself, but is rather the absence of all mental states.
    Nirvana is perfect bliss because nothing can disturb it.
    Nirvana is perfect wisdom because there is nothing else needing to be known.
    Nirvana is perfect unconditional love because there is no reason for it not to be.
    ~Jackson Peterson (found on Facebook if not in Nirvana)

    Absence of all mental states? Aren't bliss, wisdom and love mental states?

    @SpinyNorman said:

    @Jeffrey said:> Nirvana is not a state in itself, but is rather the absence of all mental states.
    Nirvana is perfect bliss because nothing can disturb it.
    Nirvana is perfect wisdom because there is nothing else needing to be known.
    Nirvana is perfect unconditional love because there is no reason for it not to be.
    ~Jackson Peterson (found on Facebook if not in Nirvana)

    Absence of all mental states? Aren't bliss, wisdom and love mental states?

    Yes they are both

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    And absence of all motives or what have you is quite all a tall order. I love everyone. Quite a tall order mate! And bro! Or sister!

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    How old are you, guys, anyway?

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2016

    39 years old. May to be what it is.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    And the group Weezer is 'only in dreams'

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    as it is

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    I see. I'm still 22. Finished my basic pastoral course under the Evangelicals last year.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    22 years old is quite wonderful. I had the onset of difficult hard to talk about states at that time.

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Thank you, @Jeffrey. Yes, others say that I am quite different for a 22-year old. I guess it was because of my curiosity and sense of independence that brought be to where I am. I do not want my decisions/worldview/philosophies to be interfered/influenced by someone. I want to have search of my own and experience them first hand. Though I was raised in a Christian-Evangelical family, I had a lot questions back then. This questionings have intensified all the more when I entered college, as I am inclined with sociology and community development via communication.

    Jeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    As repeated by Jeff Buckley (not Jeffrey)

    "I Know It's Over"
    (originally by The Smiths)

    Oh Mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head
    And as I climb into an empty bed - oh well, enough said
    I know it's over still I cling, I don't know where else I can go
    Over and over...
    Oh Mother, I can feel the soil falling over my head
    See the sea wants to take me, the knife wants to slit (cut) me
    Do you think you can help me
    Sad veiled bride please be happy - handsome groom give her room
    Loud loutish lover treat her kindly though she needs you
    More than she loves you - and I know it's over - still I cling
    I don't know where else I can go - over and over...
    I know it's over and it never really began but in my heart it was so real
    And she even spoke to me and said
    "If you're so funny, then why are you on your own tonight?"
    "And if you're so clever then why are you on your own tonight?"
    "And if you're so very entertaining then why are you on your own tonight?"
    "And if you're so very good looking, then why do you sleep alone tonight?"
    I know - 'cos tonight is just like any other night - that's why you're on your own tonight
    With your triumphs and your charms - while they're in each other's arms
    It's so easy to laugh it's so easy to hate it takes strength to be gentle and kind - over and over...
    It's so easy to laugh it's so easy to hate it takes guts to be gentle and kind - over and over...
    Love is natural and real - but not for you my love not tonight my love
    Love is natural and real - but not for such as you and I my love
    Oh mother... [etc.]

    Markus_Louis
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:

    Absence of all mental states? Aren't bliss, wisdom and love mental states?

    Of course they are.
    Nirvana is NOT a mental state but it is filtered/apprehended/experienced through mental states. This is why in Buddhism Nirvana is described in negative language - emptiness, non-arising, unconditional etc.

    ... bliss, wisdom and love are unconditional, transcendent if you will. In Christianity they 'trancend all understanding'
    http://biblehub.com/philippians/4-7.htm#

    As I always say to the Buddha, 'Dude you shouldn't even be here, come to think of it ... you are not!' :glasses:

    ... and now back to the emptiness ...

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Markus_Louis said:
    Christian bigotry, eh? :) Well, if you happen to read my lengthy post, I am now with the Evangelicals (though my parents were with the Evangelicals from the beginning). It's just this recent that I have been a 'convert'. Before my 'conversion', I was an agnostic. After some time, I became a deist. Then a de facto atheist. Yes, I believe in the Deity (God of the bible) and worship him (even pray). I also preached the gospel. It might surprise you if I'd tell you that I'd taken basic pastoral course in the Evangelicals :) But I have to admit most of my worldviews fit into Buddhism.

    How do your parents feel about your interest in Buddhism?
    Mine are strictly athiest so I tend to keep quiet about my practice so as not to alarm them!

    RuddyDuck9
  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    They do not know that I'm having fancy over Buddhism, though they may have a hint as they are spiritually mature in the Christian-Evangelical perspective. I was an atheist, too, and my parents were very much aware of that, though I haven't really told them that I was an atheist. "It's obvious (as to speech, philosophy, worldview, stand, etc.)", they said. Yes, they were disappointed at first, but then they just prayed for me and wallaaaah, I was brought back to the Christian faith (though some questions in my head are still left unanswered). As the cliche' goes, "It's easier to come out gay". Well, about yours @Bunks, there's actually no difference between atheism and Buddhism since the latter is generally non-theistic. But some branches of Buddhism believe in the existence of gods and other spiritual entities.

  • Markus_LouisMarkus_Louis Phippines Explorer

    Though the point of argument would be the word: RELIGION. Since atheism is not a religion, but more of a worldview.

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