Bodhisattva versus arhat in the Tibetan tradition
Jeroen
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
So I was taking part in a 'basic concepts' course at my local Buddhist centre, which is part of the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism. We were discussing the different motivations that people have, and the monk who was teaching the course said these fall into three categories, first trying to secure a favourable rebirth, second personal freedom from samsara, and third complete enlightenment for all living beings. The second would lead to arhat-ship, the third to being a Buddha, eventually. But to get there you need to arouse the right kind of motivating spirit.
So being thoroughly disreputable and steeped in other traditions, I had this quote from Sri Ramana Maharshi in the back of my mind, "the greatest service you can render the world is your own self-realisation". This kind of suggests to me that perhaps arhat-ship is the correct place to be, before making further decisions, and it made me wonder, can you actually make a decision about what to try for from the perspective of an unreleased being?
Surely the process of striving for release and hopefully attaining it would change your thinking in such a way that it might have made other decisions in this area irrelevant? At what point do things like cosmic knowledge come along? Ramana certainly implied that "he knew what he needed to know at the time he needed it".
Anyone have any thoughts on this? It kind of matters to the path of learning and meditation that one takes.
Comments
It reminds me of the advice to put on your own oxygen mask first in the event of an emergency on a plane.
Personally I find that the idea of trying to "save" myself is plenty to deal with, I couldn't cope with the responsibility of saving everybody else too. Perhaps some people find it an inspiring motivation though.
I'm with @SpinyNorman on this one. Trying to "save all beings" seems like an overwhelming, Herculean task. However, it has been explained to me that helping all sentient beings achieve liberation is aspirational, not literal.
The real motivation is wanting to know. If we don't want to know, then stay in the play pen. Too harsh?
"Cosmic knowledge?" I'm still waiting for my decoder ring.
I think your teacher's list is one way to break down the goals people have in Buddhism. But when it comes to something like motivation, our minds are a stew of different and sometimes competing desires.
I suspect we all start out with a search for happiness in our own lives. And wanting to be happy isn't a bad motivation. The Four Noble Truths says nothing about rebirth or karma or enlightenment. It's a prescription for living a happy life. Not a life free of pain or loss but one free of Dukkha.
The bodhisattva path progress through stages known as the bhumis. The first stage one has direct perception of the emptiness of phenomena, kind of a small enlightenment. They say that it is at the 8th Bhumi that a bodhisattva has the same realization as an arhat.
I'd say that the skeptical position is saying that there isn't sufficient evidence for belief in such things. Implied in your statements are positive claims of their non existence, since you've made a claim now the burden of proof is on you.
Since you can't ever really prove a negative I'd argue that it is too harsh by a step.
I seem to recall you saying that you'd taken a Bodhisattva vow? If so could you say something about it?
Yes, for me it was another step in my Buddhist practice. I can't speak for anyone else. I had moved from Zazen practice to a straight cultivating Metta practice when I realized it wasn't about me anymore. When I looked around at the world with a clear mind, I saw just how petty and vindictive and selfish people actually were, always have been, and always will be. The only good my enlightenment would bring to the world was one less person hurting other people. I could have done that from the beginning by simply learning how to be kind. Hell of a result for half a lifetime ruining my knees meditating.
It's called a crisis of faith. I was faced with two choices. I could either say to hell with it and withdraw from the world like any monk behind temple walls, or roll up my sleeves and get to work. The Bodhisattva vows are an act of defiance. They are as personal and emotional as any statement that says this life, here and now, is where I make a stand. I'm not going to quit. I'm going down swinging.
Yes, every one of the statements those vows contain is right. Beings are numberless. Desires are inexhaustible. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. That's what I see when I look around at the world. My answer, instead of giving up, is to look at the people around me every day and ask, "How can I help?"
And thus my sermon for today. Hope this helps.
I'd sort of agree. Buddhism makes a number of quite hard to believe, outlandish claims. But there is also a lot of material that is verifiable and that works, and that sets you to thinking about the rest of the lore - things like karma, rebirth, spiritual cosmology. You certainly can't prove that it doesn't exist, but it is a big step to believe it is all true, over the common sense position.
And I'm not yet knowledgeable enough in the sutra's to be able to say how much of this lore came from the Buddha's own words. In a way I am very sympathetic to the Theravada tradition, which emphasises the Buddha's teachings and doesn't have so many esoteric elements.
Good luck with that.
I will also not be proving the non existence of the flying spaghetti monster ...
http://opcoa.st/0jLx8
ooh arr - Ramen
As usual I find myself in the middle and my motivation is a variation of 2 and 3. To lessen my suffering by helping others and vise-versa.
The seemingly impossible path set on by the bodhisattva (or would-be bodhisattva) is a commitment to a possibly endless task. I don't have to "save" everybody by myself and that is not my goal because we are all in this thing together.
The question I've often found myself wondering is what the real difference is in light of non-separation.
If us and "them" is a mental construction is it really possible for one of us to wake up completely without the rest?
It is a good question.
The basis of the Mahayana and the post enlightenment efforts of the Buddha.
The heart of the Buddha was big enough to do the impossible, spread the dharma and path, even though this is an impossible task. The construction of the path is not a constriction but a broadening. The reason I say it is impossible is because if all the merits, virtues and tweaks are in place, awakening can still elude. Fortunately we are all better for the skilful means.
Better iz plan. Wakeup iz goal.
Arhat and Bodhisattva are mental constructs but i guess at the end we do have to choose a way. The Bodhisattva will continue to exist to serve living beings, even though they are under no obligation other than their own will to do so. Thus they never enter the bliss of complete union with the divine, as this would extinguish the SELF. My understanding is the Arhat chooses to enter that state and has earned the privilege of doing so. I'm not certain we could say which path we will definitely choose until confronted with that choice. So the tradition we follow early on is largely about religious beliefs, personal moral stance, cultural influence, etc. All paths lead to the same choice anyway, but perhaps years and lifetimes of thinking and aligning with one of those concepts leans us one way or the other.?
Don't worry about choosing which one you need. Your path becomes more clear as you travel along it. I fretted about such things prior (and occasionally still do but less often) and have found that when it's time to make a choice, I know which choice to make. Until then, no choice has to be made. Mere weeks or months into such a journey is likely not enough time to have experienced enough to know where you want to go. It can also be hard to know if you are making your choice from a place of ego, which is really easy to do.
I took the bodhisattva vow with my teacher last spring, about 4 years after my refuge vow. It was just what I knew I needed to be doing at that time in my journey. There was no doubt and no question anymore. And yes, it is not meant to be a literal saving of all sentient beings. It's not really even possible to comprehend that kind of statement. It is a motivation and inspiration for focus.