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Love and Kindness (repeating nature of sutras)
Carlita
Bastian please! Save us!United States Veteran
This is a simple question. There is no "personal searching for the meaning of life" or hidden meanings behind the question. Its just as is.
That said, I read the suttas and sutras every morning and I wondered something. Most suttas I read, especially the longer ones when the Buddha is using analogies to help his disciples, he repeats what he says three times.
In It 27; 19-21 the development of love and kindness
The Buddha talks about developing liberation of the mind. Each end of the sentence he ends with the same verse.
What does this pattern of speech mean?
Does it go with the themes of dialogue or is it the actual language used in its original language?
Thanks for being patient.
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Carlita, would you mind giving a URL reference to the bit of text you are talking about, or just typing in the relevant bit?
I recall reading somewhere that all that repetition in the Suttas occurred in order to facilitate the memorization and oral transmission of same. Seems plausible, though in my case I think that more than 3 repetitions would be required.
Yes. The reason the suttas are repetitive (and in fact, even in accesstoinsight they abridge suttas with ellipses, denoting repetition without actually printing the repeated phrase) is because traditionally, transmission was oral, and as such, repetition eased the ability to memorise.
Suttas were not written down until around 100 years or so after the Buddha's passing....
I read this, too, maybe at accesstoinsight.org, "Befriending the Suttas": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/befriending.html
Also, I found "Getting Started with the Suttas" by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu helpful: http://www.sati.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Sati-Journal-Volume-1.pdf
I can do that. Here's the link: Development of Loving-Kindness Section 5 is a excerpt to what I have. Though, I honestly don't know how to measure The Buddha's teachings. -shrugs-
"Monks, whatever grounds there are for making merit productive of a future birth, all these do not equal a sixteenth part of the liberation of the mind of loving-kindness. The liberation of the mind by loving-kindness surpasses them and shines bright and brilliant" (and it repeats "the mind by loving-kindness..."
I can see more than three in person. However, when written, do you think they should keep the " ... " and repeat it more than three times or keep as is?
Thank you. These are good reads.
@Carlita asked
Candidly, I used to find the repetitions to be an obstacle to reading the Suttas at all. I was, and still am, mostly into Zen practice, and this did not seem to be a problem for me at the time, though I now believe I would have benefitted from looking at them more closely a long time ago.
No, I don't think the original format should be scrapped. I do think there is a place for abridged or even paraphrased versions that might be easier for a modern reader to utilize, but I would personally always want to be able to check and compare those with the older writings, repetitions and all.
Is the belief that the repetition is for the purpose of memorization based on a description of the format and purpose contained in the ancient texts? Or is it an inference we are making?
I like the Access comparison to the repeating choruses of a song. This makes me wonder whether the format is simply a feature of the didactic writing style of the day, and not necessarily intended as a teaching technique.
I think the repetition is to do with it being an oral transmission, though I suspect it is for emphasis rather than memorisation, repeating a point to make sure it sinks in. Imagine listening to it instead of reading it, and you will see what I mean.
I used to do some acting, and had to learn lines, I remember that repetitions were actually very difficult to remember, easily muddled, particularly when the lines were very similar but not exactly the same. That seems to argue against the idea that repetition is an aid to memorisation.
In one production we lost a whole scene because one of the actors muddled up two similar lines, and the rest of the cast followed ( you learn not just your own lines but the other actors lines, so you work off what they say ). The weird thing was the audience didn't seem to notice.
Am I correct in thinking traditional catholic style follows the same basic idea? "kyrie eleison..... kyrie eleison...... kyrie eleison...."
Yes, but it's more for an affirmative emphasis, rather than a means of memorising passages.
Remember that Buddhism speaks TO .... Catholicism speaks AT....
Probably. Generally, I think many cultures based on oral transmission and traditon of languages moat likely have repetitiveness. Even in English when we do a speech, we recap two to three times wihin a three to five min speech. So if it were a full story, say the story of Jesus birth, I wouldnt be surprised if Catholicism is similar in that regards. Mostly talking about lingustic and culture rather than differing beliefs and purpose unless that has an influence on why cultures use repeat.
They dont do kyrie elesion in english more than once. Just latin.
(We always did it thee times in English at our Catholic Church... Being Convent-educated, I remember much of my upbringing as being repetitious....!)