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An observation from your friendly local Moderator...

federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator
edited November 2016 in Buddhism Basics

And no, this isn't a 'rap-knuckles' thread...

We're Buddhists, right? I mean, let's for argument's sake, forget all this natter regarding labels and our resistance to them ('what is a Buddhist anyway?', 'I don't know if I am' 'I don't call myself Buddhist'... that kind of malarkey...) and just accept for the moment that we are Buddhist members on a Buddhist forum.
Well, I've been observing threads, comings and goings for over a decade here now (Really?! NO!! Yes, really!) and there is one undeniable little fact I've gleaned.

We come on to forum to read, comment on or create the threads, all the while discussing our practice, Mindfulness, meditation, the 5 precepts, "Three earth Touchings" 5 remembrances, 8 Worldly concerns, the Eightfold Path, Taking Refuge, yadah yadah yadah.... and we exchange information of what we 'know', what we understand, how we know and understand it, where we get our information from, which teacher resonates, which doesn't, what it means to us, how these teachings impact our Minds... but I confess, I remain a little puzzled.

Now I don't have a camera, a peep-hole or even any kind of insight into anyone's lives, apart from the information members choose to share here. So I accept I may well be talking out of my antrum profundis. But it seems to me there's a whole dual pile of stuff going on.

In a nutshell, we all sit on our little forum lotus cushions hovering 3" off the ground, in theory. (I'm kidding, but you get the picture....)
In practice - ? Honestly, really truly hand on heart: What percentage of our day do we MINDFULLY implement Buddhist teachings, ethics, morals or even just practice?
Because from what I can tell of several current threads circulating, we're letting an awful lot of quotidian shit get to us right now, both in a personal and social sense.
We say a lot... we contribute, sincerely, honestly from the Mind and Heart and I am convinced we mean what we say.
But how's the 'walkin' the talk' going for you?
When the rotating pneumatic tyre hits the tarmacadam highway - How much of everything we've absorbed, understood an known, do we put 'out there'?

Many people have said that they don't wish to advertise their Buddhism or say what practice they follow, for social reasons. Others have asked how to impart Buddhism to others, what Buddhist advice to give, how to raise Buddhist children, and the answers have pretty much, generally speaking, been along the lines of, don't tell - show. Actions speak louder than Words.

Well, if we're cagey about our Buddhism, and feel we should demonstrate rather than remonstrate - what do we do to make every person we interact with recognise that we practice what we (inwardly and on-forum) "preach"...?
How do we SHOW who we are, what we stand for and how we live inwardly?
Because looking at some of the Political threads currently circulating, and we look at others which discuss intensely personal aspects of private lives - where, in these threads, are we openly demonstrating our Buddhist ethics, morals and understanding of the Path?

Do we live split lives then? To what extent? And does this give food for thought and impetus to change? Is Change needed?

Over to you, Forum-dwellers! <3

lobsterCinorjerDhammaDragonBunksShimBhikkhuJayasaraHozan
«13

Comments

  • I did an hour of formal meditation and then shouted at the waterboiler for having 'low pressure' again.

    I iz rubbish Buddhist :3

    federicaDhammaDragonBunks
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    That's always the challenge, relating theory to practice. For me a very simple approach to practice works best. I sort of enjoy the technical discussion, but too much of it makes my brain hurt. :p

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator
    edited November 2016

    Excellent, @lobster! Precisely my point! Time for one of your appropriate cushions, I think!

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    @SpinyNorman said:
    That's always the challenge, relating theory to practice. For me a very simple approach to practice works best. I sort of enjoy the technical discussion, but too much of it makes my brain hurt. :p

    You have a brain! Lux....

  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    dhammachickBunks
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited November 2016

    Yesterday a load of plaster board collapsed, luckily the postman was not underneath. Today the kitchen was full of smoke after a pan was not turned off ... I slipped on some water on the kitchen floor trying to evict the charcoal pan ... but did not swear ... maybe the meditation karma was kicking in. o:)

    Life is dukkha? Yep but the sun is shining ...

    Cinorjer
  • Personally, all I've been able to figure out to do is a lot of meditation and reminding myself of the vow to help all beings, even the ones I would rather just go away. I get the feeling before my life is over I will be doing a lot more.

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Samsara Loop Veteran

    I am the first to acknowledge my weaknesses and -hopefully- not sound like I play smartass about my practice and values, as in biblebashing my "wisdom" on others.

    I may be rather vague on the Third Precept, abhorr celibacy with all my heart, and be totally deficient in the Right Speech department -hopefully all those snags will clear in a couple more samsaric rounds- but I am a very positive and optimistic person.
    And would love to pass that on to every one that reads my comments.

    I do not "think" nor rationalize the Dharma, but the little Dharma I know, I feel it and live it with all my heart.
    I live a very positive Dharma, because that is the way that it has changed my life: for the better.
    I have been able to come to terms with all the dukkha drama and samsaric snares thanks to the Dharma.

    I am not perfect nor aspire to be.
    But when it comes to equanimity, acceptance, compassion, lovingkindness... I grapple with these on a daily basis and the least I can say is that the today "me" has more inner peace than the "me" of twenty years ago.

    And if this sketchy Dharma of mine helps improve the lives of the people that come into contact with me, then I can proudly say I manage to walk the talk.
    And enjoy the view to boot <3

    lobsterVastminddhammachickkarasti
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    @dhammachick said:
    The irony is that next Thursday I will be going into hospital for major surgery. I will be in hospital for a week then home recovering for 4-6 weeks. I won't have anything BUT the time I have whinged about needing to kickstart my practise from the beginning. And making malas. That helps me focus too.

    I do hope your surgery goes OK. Making malas is sort of like knitting then? ;)

    federicadhammachick
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @lobster said:
    Yesterday a load of plaster board collapsed, luckily the postman was not underneath. Today the kitchen was full of smoke after a pan was not turned off ... I slipped on some water on the kitchen floor trying to evict the charcoal pan ... but did not swear ... maybe the meditation karma was kicking in. o:)

    That reminded me of Frank Spencer in "Some mothers do ave em".
    You don't wear a beret by any chance? :p

    lobsterdhammachick
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    I have it on good authority Frank Spencer is based on @lobster.....
    @dhammachick, thinking of you and lighting lamps. Be sure to let us know how things go, and report back during your convalescence. Time to practise patience, even if you do wish it would get a move-on....

    I think when the crap hits the fan, is the time to be centred, grounded and think seriously about what matters most.

    dhammachick
  • RichdawsonRichdawson Explorer
    edited November 2016

    While I may be one of the newer members, I view these pages as a sort of virtual Sangha. I treat the discussions the same way I would if I was talking to a person face to face, honestly, and sincerely.

    When I have posted questions or thoughts, they have been honest thoughts and questions. I value the input I receive. I in fact spend a good amount of time reading and re-reading my posts prior to actually posting because I think sometimes intent can get lost in text and often times emotion can be read into text where it does not exist.
    That being said, in my life I practice being honest in all things I say and avoid hearsay and exaggeration. I try to make sure that the things I do and say are never hurtful or sarcastic (sometimes I can be), and I try to be mindful. In a recent Lojong teaching that was given to me, a point that stuck out was how our words have power and can affect not only my mental state, but those of the people I talk to. For example saying “I hate it when you do…..” has a negative effect vs. changing your words to be “I love it when you do not do…”. So with that in mind I have been working on being mindful of my thoughts, and words to be of a more positive nature. I practice this in my daily life.

    When I realized that Buddhism was my path I made a commitment to myself. It has always been very personal for me. It was not something that I announced to the world per say, but what I have found is that as time has gone on my close friends and family have noticed a change in demeanor, outlook and attitude. When asked I simply say I have been actively practicing Buddhism, and if they want to know more I tell them. As I have gotten more serious in my practice over time, my daughters have been more curious about what dad is doing and why he is doing it (In fact, I recently posted asking for advice).

    I recently have been making room for a small alter / meditation area in my house and my daughters were very happy to gift me with an “om mani padme hum” banner that they won at a fundraiser at the center where I practice! I was very touched by the gesture.

    Picture of me, my girls and the resident monk Geshe Lobsang Chophel at the event.

    lobsterVastmindCinorjerdhammachick
  • Bravo @Richdawson exactly right.

    You have commited to practice and

    it works

    If anyone knows a better plan. Tell us.
    It is very problematic to use let us call it wrathful speech. Your approach shows the required safe integrity. Very inspiring post ... <3

    silver
  • Will_BakerWill_Baker Vermont Veteran

    We say a lot... we contribute, sincerely, honestly from the Mind and Heart and I am convinced we mean what we say.
    But how's the 'walkin' the talk' going for you?

    -It's going well, thank you.

    Vastmind
  • Honestly I don't say a whole lot so...It's been a smooth stride so far.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited November 2016

    how's the 'walkin' the talk' going for you?

    "I" just go with the flow of the 8Fold Path....It's part & parcel of daily life...It's "nothing special"... to use a catchphrase Just doing my job upholding the law/Dharma as best as I can :)

    VastmindCinorjerlobsternamarupa
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    Overall, my practice is a pretty major part of my life. It really is of utmost importance to me. There are, of course, still times I react without stepping back but it's not nearly so bad as it was 5 or so years ago. I do try to focus on my immediate, daily life more than anything else because I know that will carry forth the most. Much more so than my blabbing on online.

    I have a hard time in the political climate because it feels like we should be doing something, but right now not much is to be done. I've reached out to friends and others who feel concerned and threatened and offered my ear. I can't do much more. But I do recognize how much immersing myself in any one topic has very poor effects on me, and I simply have to walk away from it. I have a Buddhist friend who is in my sangha (but she lives 300 miles away) who I am having a hard time with right now because she is so immersed in the political stuff that she does nothing but share stuff on FB all day and has completely lost her Buddhist ideals, and admits it, but does nothing to step back and look at it, and I don't understand that.

    I read this article yesterday, and find it relevant to the discussion. Whether you subscribe to Mahayana beliefs or the idea of Bodhisattva vows, it has a lot of good points, I think. I do think we have to be careful of burnout. In politics and even in our practice. But it truly does no good to talk about what you think if you cannot show it via your actions, reactions and interactions in your community. Because I live in a very small town, perhaps this makes it easier for me. Everyone pretty much knows I'm a Buddhist and they absolutely will call me on it if I'm acting out, LOL. I do truly believe what it says in the article about all or none. It is indeed a practice to bring it to the world-at-large, however. But I think we can burn out in our practice, too, if we are too focused on the wrong parts of it.

    http://www.lionsroar.com/i-vow-not-to-burn-out/

    TiddlywindsCinorjerlobsterVastmind
  • @karasti said:
    Overall, my practice is a pretty major part of my life. ... But it truly does no good to talk about what you think if you cannot show it via your actions, reactions and interactions in your community.

    This is an interesting point about speech and actions. Tokme Longpo's 37 practices of a bodhisatva is so helpful to recite at times like this. This is from Ken McLeod's translation called Reflections on Silver River.

    Verse 26: If you can't look after yourself because you have no ethical discipline, then your intention to take care of others is simply a joke. Observe ethical behaviour without concern for a conventional life - this is the practice of a bodhisatva.

    Verse 35: When emotional reactions build up momentum, it is hard to make remedies work. A present and aware person uses remedies as weapons to crush craving and other emotional reactions as soon as they arise - this is the practice of a bodhisatva.

    It can really take all physical and mental energy to remain on the path! It sure ain't easy.

    silverKerome
  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @SpinyNorman said:
    I do hope your surgery goes OK. Making malas is sort of like knitting then? ;)

    Yes but safer, no stabby needles :lol:

  • Thanks for the outstanding link @karasti

    Beautiful, words, insight and probably my favorite image of the Buddha ever ...
    A lot of elements and understanding come together in that piece.

    Burn out is the Western equivalent of self-immolation, which is quite obviously self indulgent egotism gone up in flames. Personally I feel the Western effort is a higher order of fish.

    If you are going to die of anything, Boddhisattva OD get's my vote ... However as the article makes very clear, look after the Bodhi.

    Practice must make us stronger, more able, more Vulcan (live long and prosper). Go beyond your limits by all means but not so far you kill a Bodhisattva - yourself. That is very naughty. See sutras.

    karastidhammachick
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    @federica said:
    How do we SHOW who we are, what we stand for and how we live inwardly?

    Like this! :)

    "Dear Sangha,

    I encourage all of our Sangha to chant Kwan Se Um Bosal for President Elect Donald Trump. May we never forget that he is our brother. He especially needs our love and encouragement now, after taking on this huge responsibility. He has Buddha’s eyes, Buddha’s ears, Buddha’s mind. May he realize his true self and strive to see and hear all things clearly and may he always act out of love.

    Zen Master Soeng Hyang"

    ShoshinlobsterCinorjerperson
  • How many of us who have taken the bodhisattva vow are on a similar path toward burnout? Is it possible for us, as disciples of the Buddha, to engage with systemic change, grow and deepen our spiritual practice, and, if we’re laypeople, also care for our families? How can we do all of this without collapsing? In my world, there always seems to be way too much to do, along with too much suffering and societal corruption and not enough spaces of deep rest and regeneration.

    Too much form and not enough emptiness.

    The Buddha said, “So, Subhuti, all the Bodhisattva Mahasattvas should give rise to a pure and clear intention in this spirit. When they give rise to this intention, they should not rely on forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, or objects of mind. They should give rise to an intention with their minds not dwelling anywhere.”

    “So, Subhuti, when a bodhisattva gives rise to the unequaled mind of awakening, he has to give up all ideas. He cannot rely on forms when he gives rise to that mind, nor on sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, or objects of mind. He can only give rise to the mind that is not caught in anything.

    http://plumvillage.org/sutra/the-diamond-that-cuts-through-illusion/

  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    @federica said:> But how's the 'walkin' the talk' going for you?
    When the rotating pneumatic tyre hits the tarmacadam highway - How much of everything we've absorbed, understood an known, do we put 'out there'?

    It varies quite a bit. My mindfulness is pretty consistent in the mornings but it tends to get more erratic as the day goes on!

  • DavidDavid some guy The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran

    I started thinking about this thread just now while doing an exercise on Right view in a way. The thread on magick comes to mind as well truth be told. Perhaps even the political ones.

    It seems to me that I do ok with the big stuff but the little things trip me up. It's not Friday, it's Wednesday and so I feel a wave of dissatisfaction akin to nausea.

    I've been trying to reconcile this suffering by seeing how it's all wonderful and a chance to be alive. This morning I'm counting my "blessings" for lack of a better word. I'm finding that all those little things that make me suffer get counted as blessings as well.

    Oh my stop is coming up so it's time to get off the bus and get to work. My battery will die this morning so this post will be lost unless I post it unfinished.

    Oh joy?

    Cinorjerkarasti
  • PJKPJK UK Explorer

    @SpinyNorman said:

    @dhammachick said:
    The irony is that next Thursday I will be going into hospital for major surgery. I will be in hospital for a week then home recovering for 4-6 weeks. I won't have anything BUT the time I have whinged about needing to kickstart my practise from the beginning. And making malas. That helps me focus too.

    I do hope your surgery goes OK. Making malas is sort of like knitting then? ;)

    @SpinyNorman... thoughts are with you

  • @seeker242 said:
    I encourage all of our Sangha to chant Kwan Se Um Bosal for President Elect Donald Trump. May we never forget that he is our brother. He especially needs our love and encouragement now, after taking on this huge responsibility. He has Buddha’s eyes, Buddha’s ears, Buddha’s mind. May he realize his true self and strive to see and hear all things clearly and may he always act out of love.

    [lobster faints]
    Absolutely correct. Very tantric AND may be too advanced for those of us hiding behind the sofa when Dalek Trump comes onto our screen.

    Trump and his elite team of Buddha Nazis Sangha may indeed be a twisted personification of the wrathful Buddha Nature but that does not mean we are ready to send metta to him. We have to be realistic.

    Wrathful practice/extreme metta/picknicking in the hell realms is not for the faint hearted.

    Be kind to your personal lesser demons, fear of bad hair, aversion to spray tans etc. and learn that Trump is barely one man. Power is usually an agreement or an imposition we don't have to engage with ...

    Viva El Presendente! [oops]

    person
  • PJKPJK UK Explorer

    Yes weaving Buddhism into our daily fabric can be difficult, I'm a rock n roll singer so...ie"well its Saturday night and I've just got paid thought about ma money don't try to save..my heart go go have a time..Saturday nite n ah a feel fine..gonna rip it up gonna rock it gonna ball it gonna rip it uuuuup...have a ball tonite" ect ect.
    Its sometimes difficult trying to balance if you like doing this for a living and seeking the truth ...the two don't seem compatable sometimes. .the way I try and get around it is I know I am cheering people up mostly.
    Though most songs country especially are singing about attachment.
    Occasionally you will get a song like "thy burdens are greater than mine" by hank williams which is almost like the Buddhas noble truth outing.
    But in general I'm encouraging folk to drink more and be attached to ego.
    Thoughts please!

  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran
    edited November 2016

    I've been ill with a horrible throat cold, it has been affecting my meditation, so there has been less of the rubber hitting the road of late. But this too will pass... on the grand scheme of things it is a small hiccup, compared to other things that have been happening.

    Lately I have been wondering about effort. I was listening to the Tao Te Ching and it occurred to me that to one who is in harmony with the dao life is easy... after all struggle and strife are largely in the mind, and if you move in accord with what is, you don't need to prevaricate or reason, you just do and the great way opens itself up before you.

    Buddhism seems to better for those on earlier stages of the path, taking guidance while struggling to free oneself from bad habits and to make good mindstates arise.

    (With sniffles and a few hacking coughs)

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @PJK you never know how things work out better than you assume. I would be that is what you sing about because that is what you think people want to hear based on the rest of the market. But what if you did something different? There are several Buddhists who are performers. They have really interesting articles online if you search. KD Lang is one who did some soul searching as to weather she could be a performer and a Buddhist. Adam Yauch from Beastie Boys was also a pretty devout Buddhist. They both used their music and their views together. It can be done. Remember most people are not satisfied with life as it is, so why not give them something else instead of more of the same?

  • PJKPJK UK Explorer

    @karasti said:
    @PJK you never know how things work out better than you assume. I would be that is what you sing about because that is what you think people want to hear based on the rest of the market. But what if you did something different? There are several Buddhists who are performers. They have really interesting articles online if you search. KD Lang is one who did some soul searching as to weather she could be a performer and a Buddhist. Adam Yauch from Beastie Boys was also a pretty devout Buddhist. They both used their music and their views together. It can be done. Remember most people are not satisfied with life as it is, so why not give them something else instead of more of the same?

    Hi @karasti because I do it for a full time occupation not a hobby, so really I must sing "what people want to hear"
    I'm not sure what music you could do to a saturday night blackpool ( for instance) crowd. All popular genre of music is based on the same themes...romantic love and loss..partying..money ect
    Actually country music like a george jones song can really reach people because its singing about part of their life. Their 'conditioned mind' life...
    Which is what we try to lose..that's the problem I was trying to deal with

  • I do my meditation-prayer 2 hrs each and every day by choice. No requirement there.
    I try, with varying degrees of success, to apply the core of my Buddhism to each moment. I don't ponder if I have "the right mind". I pretty much know it in the moment.
    Being a military veteran and living with ADHD and facing sometimes sever challenges routinely, I am in and out of the mindful mode on the surface, "conscious" level. My "Mindful" mind always brings me back from the precipice.

    Am I unique? I don't think so in that regard. We are always "in and out", always up and down. It is the core, the inner self (inner being if you wish) that we must nurture in order not to be blown hither and yon by the surface, external happenstance.

    Yes, @fredrica, we of this group do, as a group, tend to often go all over the place in seemingly every way. Sometimes it works and sometimes - oh well.
    As I said before, you do a great job of wrangling the cats. (Meow!)

    Peace to all

    lobsterDhammaDragon
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @PJK but my point is, other people do it differently and they still do just fine. I promise KD Lang is not hurting for money because she doesn't sink to the level of singing about pointless attachment. If it causes you conflict then it's worth investigating. If it doesn't cause you conflict, then nothing to worry about at this point. But to say that you are possibly concerned about something but you can't do anything about it doesn't make much sense to me. You CAN do something, you just aren't ready or willing yet, which is ok, too.

  • PJKPJK UK Explorer

    Thanks for your input but kd could prob retire to the Bahamas if she wished.
    Making a living as a jobbing muso is
    Not as easy as people might think.
    I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
    Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying

  • PJKPJK UK Explorer

    @karasti kd doesn't sing about pointless attachment. .you have got to be joking she covered "crying" for a start and everything I've heard her do is that

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    I meant since the time she has been a practicing Buddhist. Read her interviews online. She is much more selective now. Anyhow, I'm not telling you what to do. It is simply a suggestion. It is a CHOICE to hold any job, and if you aren't liking what it is doing for you or your practice it is within your ability to change it. If you don't wish to, then don't. But if you have to wear a mask so much that you don't know who you are, that seems like a problem to me.

    Daviddhammachick
  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @PJK said:
    Thanks for your input but kd could prob retire to the Bahamas if she wished.
    Making a living as a jobbing muso is
    Not as easy as people might think.
    I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
    Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying

    As someone who worked in a few countries as a professional singer in my 20's, I might respectfully suggest that if you "lose yourself" in your work or have problems defining who you are, maybe putting on a front has nothing to with your work but everything to do with you and your perspective. You cannot ever control what someone does, eats, drinks or spends money on. Perhaps you are nihilistic as opposed to Buddhist?

    _ /\ _

    federicaPJK
  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    @PJK said:
    I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
    Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying

    A deed is worth a thousand words. A word is worth a thousand rumours. That's the standard I usually use when forming an opinion of who someone really is, it gives you an interesting perspective on say the likes of El Presidente Trump.

    I do get what you're saying but there have been some who made good money in the rock'n'roll business by singing about other subjects than the attachments. Dire Straits come to mind, or Stevie Wonder, or The Police / Sting. They may not have been Buddhists, but their songs are about more than just materialism or love. Perhaps some of the material can be adapted?

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator
    edited November 2016

    @PJK said:
    Thanks for your input but kd could prob retire to the Bahamas if she wished.
    Making a living as a jobbing muso is
    Not as easy as people might think.
    I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
    Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying

    Yes, I'm sorry, I take issue with this, too.

    Buddhism has nothing to do with pretence, or putting up a front. Quite the contrary. HHDL even wrote a book titled "How to see yourself as you really are."
    Buddhism is about honest, sometimes brutal truth. The 4 Noble truths illustrate that with laser-point accuracy.
    If you're having to do that, or believe you must, then you're not only lying to others, you're lying to yourself. And lying to yourself, and believing it's the only way to go, is the unkindest cut of all.

    "This above all:
    To thine own self be True;
    And it MUST follow, as the night, the day
    Thou canst not then be false to any man."

    (Hamlet, Petronius.)

    Shakespeare was one shit-hot writer, and frankly, nailed it.

    PJKNele
  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @federica said:

    Buddhism has nothing to do with pretence, or putting up a front. Quite the contrary. HHDL even wrote a book titled "How to see yourself as you really are."

    Bloody good book too

  • PJKPJK UK Explorer

    @dhammachick said:

    @PJK said:
    Thanks for your input but kd could prob retire to the Bahamas if she wished.
    Making a living as a jobbing muso is
    Not as easy as people might think.
    I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
    Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying

    As someone who worked in a few countries as a professional singer in my 20's, I might respectfully suggest that if you "lose yourself" in your work or have problems defining who you are, maybe putting on a front has nothing to with your work but everything to do with you and your perspective. You cannot ever control what someone does, eats, drinks or spends money on. Perhaps you are nihilistic as opposed to Buddhist?

    _ /\ _

    @dhammachick Thanks awfully for you fantastic appraisal of my my whole psychological makeup and my spiruality too, and all from reading a few sentences, remarkable, so all these years reading the words of the Buddha, studying his teachings, going on retreat to Switzerland ect and I turn out to be nothing but a plain old nihilist. Wow!
    Regarding being a performer people have what's known as a 'stage act' because that's what it is, they wear certain clothes, behave in a certain way because that's their stage 'act'.
    Maybe someone such as yourself whom I suspect did some "open mike nites" with your own material (off beat folk rock) two chords and a minor type stuff
    then maybe a couple vegan cafes on your travels, would not need a stage act as playing to the converted, but everyone else does and has.
    Thanks again.

    Nele
  • PJKPJK UK Explorer

    @federica said:

    @PJK said:
    Thanks for your input but kd could prob retire to the Bahamas if she wished.
    Making a living as a jobbing muso is
    Not as easy as people might think.
    I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
    Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying

    Yes, I'm sorry, I take issue with this, too.

    Buddhism has nothing to do with pretence, or putting up a front. Quite the contrary. HHDL even wrote a book titled "How to see yourself as you really are."
    Buddhism is about honest, sometimes brutal truth. The 4 Noble truths illustrate that with laser-point accuracy.
    If you're having to do that, or believe you must, then you're not only lying to others, you're lying to yourself. And lying to yourself, and believing it's the only way to go, is the unkindest cut of all.

    "This above all:
    To thine own self be True;
    And it MUST follow, as the night, the day
    Thou canst not then be false to any man."

    (Hamlet, Petronius.)

    Shakespeare was one shit-hot writer, and frankly, nailed it.

    Shakespear was "shit hot" that's funny
    All performers put on an act when on stage all...just as a bank clerk or a barrister does when at work.
    Maybe I should do some chanting or the long OM in the middle of a set in a tough northern labour club.
    Seem like a few people have grabbed hold of the wrong end of the stick to my original post...so much for Buddhist being non-judgmental!

  • PJKPJK UK Explorer

    @Kerome said:

    @PJK said:
    I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
    Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying

    A deed is worth a thousand words. A word is worth a thousand rumours. That's the standard I usually use when forming an opinion of who someone really is, it gives you an interesting perspective on say the likes of El Presidente Trump.

    I do get what you're saying but there have been some who made good money in the rock'n'roll business by singing about other subjects than the attachments. Dire Straits come to mind, or Stevie Wonder, or The Police / Sting. They may not have been Buddhists, but their songs are about more than just materialism or love. Perhaps some of the material can be adapted?

    Dire Straits...money for nothing and the chicks for free.
    Stevie Wonder...living for the city
    Police...every breath you make

    Every song in existence is about attachment.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    @PJK said:

    @federica said:

    @PJK said:
    Thanks for your input but kd could prob retire to the Bahamas if she wished.
    Making a living as a jobbing muso is
    Not as easy as people might think.
    I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
    Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying

    Yes, I'm sorry, I take issue with this, too.

    Buddhism has nothing to do with pretence, or putting up a front. Quite the contrary. HHDL even wrote a book titled "How to see yourself as you really are."
    Buddhism is about honest, sometimes brutal truth. The 4 Noble truths illustrate that with laser-point accuracy.
    If you're having to do that, or believe you must, then you're not only lying to others, you're lying to yourself. And lying to yourself, and believing it's the only way to go, is the unkindest cut of all.

    "This above all:
    To thine own self be True;
    And it MUST follow, as the night, the day
    Thou canst not then be false to any man."

    (Hamlet, Petronius.)

    Shakespeare was one shit-hot writer, and frankly, nailed it.

    Shakespear was "shit hot" that's funny
    All performers put on an act when on stage all...just as a bank clerk or a barrister does when at work.
    Maybe I should do some chanting or the long OM in the middle of a set in a tough northern labour club.
    Seem like a few people have grabbed hold of the wrong end of the stick to my original post...so much for Buddhist being non-judgmental!

    There's no judgement here. There's criticism, which is different. You know you're welcome and you're totally accepted. But it is YOU who wrote about putting up a false front, and acting is different to performing songs. If you act, you not only have a script, you also have a personality fit you have to pretend to be. Nobody who's sensible, believes an actor is whom he portrays.

    A Bank Clerk or barrister has to conform to the legitimate professional attitude required of them, but that doesn't mean they become a different person or put up a front. It's professional behaviour.

    Singing songs is utterly different. There is no REQUIREMENT to adopt or present a different persona.

    Finally, nobody has been rude, dismissive or sarcastic towards you. We have pointed out that in our opinion, your set belief that you have to put up a front while performing, is an unnecessary trait, and that perhaps it actually does you few favours. You've made a few ad hominem attacks which are totally uncalled for, given that nobody has communicated with you in the same vein.

    If you can't take straight talk and opinion, without getting shirty, sarcastic or patronising, then perhaps you really are in the wrong business altogether...?
    You might treat hecklers that way, and rightly so, because hecklers are a nuisance. Don't presume you can behave that way towards members here.

    dhammachickDhammaDragon
  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @PJK said:

    @dhammachick said:

    @PJK said:
    Thanks for your input but kd could prob retire to the Bahamas if she wished.
    Making a living as a jobbing muso is
    Not as easy as people might think.
    I was talking really as a person who has to put a front on just to do their job.
    Its hard to distinguish sometimes who you actually are..if you understand what I'm saying

    As someone who worked in a few countries as a professional singer in my 20's, I might respectfully suggest that if you "lose yourself" in your work or have problems defining who you are, maybe putting on a front has nothing to with your work but everything to do with you and your perspective. You cannot ever control what someone does, eats, drinks or spends money on. Perhaps you are nihilistic as opposed to Buddhist?

    _ /\ _

    @dhammachick Thanks awfully for you fantastic appraisal of my my whole psychological makeup and my spiruality too, and all from reading a few sentences, remarkable, so all these years reading the words of the Buddha, studying his teachings, going on retreat to Switzerland ect and I turn out to be nothing but a plain old nihilist. Wow!
    Regarding being a performer people have what's known as a 'stage act' because that's what it is, they wear certain clothes, behave in a certain way because that's their stage 'act'.
    Maybe someone such as yourself whom I suspect did some "open mike nites" with your own material (off beat folk rock) two chords and a minor type stuff
    then maybe a couple vegan cafes on your travels, would not need a stage act as playing to the converted, but everyone else does and has.
    Thanks again.

    Lol wow such anger from an "experienced" Buddhist. Hit a nerve obviously.

    And thanks but no folk singer here or open mic nights, although i did add my own material in sets when I could. I played drums and bass along with being lead singer in several bands in Japan - mainly hard rock, jazz and sometimes pop if it was requested. Oh and I'm a carnivore too :waving:

    I say this with no malice and genuine sincerity - you sound like you could do with a big hug. Where you felt like being attacked, I cannot see in my post. I was being sincere in giving another take on things. I will withdraw now because it's clear you're not interested in any discussion. Be well.

  • Hey guys................

    Let's aim for compassion, love, warmth, kindness - any chance of de-escalation?

    Who's up for backing down?

    Not sure anyone meant to be hurtful... presumably, we're all in samsara?

    Hopefully, it was all meant with the best of intentions but something's gone awry.

    Not sure about anyone else, but I've had a crap week at work, and the way we all moved forward today was to imagine the other person's perspective, see a wider view, hold back, and to say 'sorry, I felt hurt and reacted badly. I see how it all got out of hand'.

    Let's not have a deal-breaker interaction in the middle of this otherwise lovely conversation?

    As far as I can figure out, there's more than enough animosity out there and with any luck we can avoid it in samsaric dharmaland?

    Shoshinpersonlobster
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    The above discussion escalated in precisely the way I tried to illustrate in my original post.

    It's kind of happened in 'reverse' though. People purporting to be avid, long-term students of the Buddha's teachings, absorbing and learning all about the different aspects of Buddhism. Yet here we are, at loggerheads.

    I am perfectly at ease with my contribution here, thank you @Tiddlywinds, though I appreciate and thank you for your contribution. It's where I, like Worzel Gummidge, must wear different heads for different situations. My above post is content of both member and Moderator, and while animated and occasionally heated discussion is both acceptable and appropriate (debate is a common instance in Tibetan Buddhism, particularly) rudeness, name-calling or thinly-veiled insults shrouded in sarcasm are absolutely not.

    Right speech is one thing.
    Freedom of Speech is another, and responsibility for what we say is brought to swift attention when the fist connects with the nose, metaphorically speaking.

    This forum, when we come right down to it, is, as any forum is, occasionally subject to the less savoury aspects of discussion.
    I like to think I'm sufficiently on the ball to knock it on the head when it occurs.

    lobster
  • As I said, excellent cat wrangler.

    federica
  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem Samsara Loop Veteran

    @Tiddlywinds said:
    Hey guys................
    Let's aim for compassion, love, warmth, kindness - any chance of de-escalation?

    Believe me, @Tiddlywinds: the sparring here is nothing compared to others we have had in the past.
    The heavy artillery is not out yet...

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