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wrong/right speech

upekkaupekka Veteran
edited November 2016 in Meditation

engages in false speech, engages in divisive speech, engages in abusive speech, engages in idle chatter are said to be wrong speech

i know it is very very hard to avoid them sometime

i would like to know:

what is your understanding about them so far?
what is right speech according to your understanding?

thanks

if possible please bring up the relevant threads in this forum (i do not know how to do that)

lobster

Comments

  • false speech - lying
    divisive speech - gossip/slander/slagging off
    abusive speech - speaking angrily/hostile
    idle chatter - crapping on for no purpose, in the UK, this is speaking about the weather.

    right speech - economical, honest, warm, helpful, integrity.

    DhammaDragonShoshin
  • what is your understanding about them so far?
    what is right speech according to your understanding?

    They have levels:

    Right speech starts with listening, goes through silence and ends up in everyday conversation

    • false speech goes through mundane lying, speaking the truth inappropriately, remaining silent innapropriately
    • divisive speech is that which seperates the wheat from the chaff, the flour from the bread, the sliced bread from eating toast - yum
    • abusive speech is ignorance, well meaning questions and finally effective means
    • idle chatter is talking about awakening, talking mindfully and finally nothing special being said ...

    ... of course nobody ever says that ... and now back to the sleeping virtuous and finger pointing body language ...

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited November 2016

    Right speech also means choosing words that are kind rather than words that are true. As Ajahn Chah would say, "True but not right."

    You need to be careful what you say because words can hurt. However tomorrow you may not even remember what was said. You will remember how people make you feel though. And right now you are hurting your friend. You can argue that you are right and you had the ball first, but at the end of the fight and the end of the day it won't matter. You chose being right over being kind. You need to think about what kind of friend you want to be and what kind of friends you want to have.
    http://www.whig.com/article/20161117/ARTICLE/161119994

    [1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

    [2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

    [3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

    [4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

    [5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

    [6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

    Abhaya Sutta

    DhammaDragonupekka
  • What I find difficult isn't the meaning of wrong speech but knowing/seeing/feeling what I'm speaking is wrong speech, e.g. it was only recently that I heard myself be snide. It wasn't that it was the first time I'd been snide, it was the first time that I heard the underlying emotion of snide in what I was saying. Until then, I had no idea how frequently I was snide.

    lobsterperson
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    upekka
  • How we handle our perceptions is what determines our speech/actions I believe. Having Right Views will ultimately become right speech.

    lobsterDhammaDragonupekka
  • Ah yes - It is the mind (View) that determines.
    If you are of the right mind, all else follows.
    If you are of the wrong mind, all else follows.

    Peace to all

    namarupaupekka
  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem switzerland Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @namarupa said:
    How we handle our perceptions is what determines our speech/actions I believe. Having Right Views will ultimately become right speech.

    Right view is the alpha and omega of the N8P.
    Liberation from dukkha depends on the uprooting of ignorance and developing wisdom will hone our ability to see the world as it is, that is, help us develop Right View.
    Our views colour our perceptions, translate reality to us and impel us to bodily and verbal action.

    As to a general gist of Right Speech, in the Majjhima-Nikaya 21:

    "For thus, Brothers, ought you to train yourselves: 'Undisturbed shall our mind remain, no evil words shall escape our lips; friendly and full of sympathy shall we remain, with heart full of love and free from any hidden malice; and that person shall we penetrate with loving thoughts, wide, deep, boundless, freed from anger and hatred.'"

    Right Speech implies abstaining from vain talk, speaking at the right time, speaking in accordance with facts, speaking to the point.

    Thich Nhat Hanh's take on Right Speech is:

    "> > Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful speech and the inability to listen to others, I am committed to cultivating loving speech and compassionate listening in order to relieve suffering and to promote reconciliation and peace in myself and among other people, ethnic and religious groups, and nations. Knowing that words can create happiness or suffering, I am committed to speaking truthfully using words that inspire confidence, joy, and hope. When anger is manifesting in me, I am determined not to speak. I will practice mindful breathing and walking in order to recognize and to look deeply into my anger. I know that the roots of anger can be found in my wrong perceptions and lack of understanding of the suffering in myself and in the other person. I will speak and listen in a way that can help myself and the other person to transform suffering and see the way out of difficult situations. I am determined not to spread news that I do not know to be certain and not to utter words that can cause division or discord. I will practice Right Diligence to nourish my capacity for understanding, love, joy, and inclusiveness, and gradually transform anger, violence, and fear that lie deep in my consciousness."

    namarupaupekka
  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @upekka said:
    what is your understanding about them so far?

    That there's not a lot of it in some threads at the moment?...

  • @Tiddlywinds said:
    What I find difficult isn't the meaning of wrong speech but knowing/seeing/feeling what I'm speaking is wrong speech, e.g. it was only recently that I heard myself be snide. It wasn't that it was the first time I'd been snide, it was the first time that I heard the underlying emotion of snide in what I was saying. Until then, I had no idea how frequently I was snide.

    <3
    This is where it starts to get interesting. Mind chatter occurs even when the outer speech form is gentle and right on or silent. So ultimately right speech is right internal dialogue/view.

    Lot of work to be done? You said it. Quiet mind, quiet speech ...

    dhammachick
  • Right speech starts from having right thoughts which comes from having right view. It all flows from having the right view.

    "When, friends, a noble disciple understands suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma."

    "When, friends, a noble disciple understands craving, the origin of craving, the cessation of craving, and the way leading to the cessation of craving, in that way he is one of right view."

    "When, friends, a noble disciple understands feeling, the origin of feeling, the cessation of feeling, and the way leading to the cessation of feeling, in that way he is one of right view."

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html#pt1

    namarupaupekka
  • @SpinyNorman on 9th September posted:

    An interesting take on "idle chatter" by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

    "The traditional exegesis of abstaining from idle chatter refers only to avoiding engagement in such talk oneself. But today it might be of value to give this factor a different slant, made imperative by certain developments peculiar to our own time, unknown in the days of the Buddha and the ancient commentators. This is avoiding exposure to the idle chatter constantly bombarding us through the new media of communication created by modern technology. An incredible array of devices_television, radio, newspapers, pulp journals, the cinema_turns out a continuous stream of needless information and distracting entertainment the net effect of which is to leave the mind passive, vacant, and sterile. All these developments, naively accepted as "progress," threaten to blunt our aesthetic and spiritual sensitivities and deafen us to the higher call of the contemplative life. Serious aspirants on the path to liberation have to be extremely discerning in what they allow themselves to be exposed to. They would greatly serve their aspirations by including these sources of amusement and needless information in the category of idle chatter and making an effort to avoid them."
    http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp4.php

    This particular week I've heard that 3 colleagues from junior to middle to very senior got into regular 'bitch' sessions about staff (including me). It made me realise a couple of things:

    • bitching to another person infects the other person's relationships with those around them
    • it makes the vibe of the office more negative
    • it made me a bit paranoid and untrusting about who to talk to.

    It made me realise that bitching is a crap thing to do and so I vowed not do it again. With a colleague who saw that I was upset I said 'I'm upset but I don't want to talk about it'. It was enough to not deny what was going on but also didn't feed it.

    So, even though I was having a totally rubbish time of things I decided to not say anything. This was physically painful for about a day but the feeling didn't last and then I didn't have any feeling of regret or 'dirtiness of thought' about having bitched or said something to someone I shouldn't have.

    I definitely feel better for it. Although I'm a feminist I do find that women can get together too often to 'let off steam' (which ends up being bitchy) but I don't think it's good for the soul (if there were a soul).

    personupekka
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @upekka said:

    what is your understanding about them so far?

    It's a verbal jungle out/in there :) ...and that's no joke....the mind's a jungle...monkeys gibbering day in day out.....Ongoing MINDFULNESS tames the monkey chatter...

    what is right speech according to your understanding?

    With right intention in mind....Do no harm or the least possible harm...with ones thoughts words and deeds

    The wounds inflicted by an unsheathed 'sharp' tongue can create lasting mental scars...

    upekka
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @namarupa said:
    How we handle our perceptions is what determines our speech/actions I believe. Having Right Views will ultimately become right speech.

    Good point, and skillful behaviour flows naturally from wisdom. But in the meantime we are encouraged to be more aware of the way we are behaving, like with the precepts and with the 8-fold path factors like Right Speech. "Fake it till you make it"?

    upekka
  • @namarupa said:
    How we handle our perceptions is what determines our speech/actions I believe. Having Right Views will ultimately become right speech.

    so the important thing is getting the Right View

    during the morning meditation (actually after the meditation) i found the connection among world, perception, delusion, thought, thinking, (sankhara, sancethana, sanna, pancaupadanaskanda, patcca-samuppada etc.)

    there are lots of relevant helping comments given by members in threads 'world', 'right view', 'perception' 'thought/thinking' and 'delusion/ignorance'
    and there might be some more relevant threads you remember

    just let us know, i mean bring them up in this thread please

    i like to go through them before the next meditation
    thanks

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator
    edited November 2016

    @upekka said:... if possible please bring up the relevant threads in this forum (i do not know how to do that)

    Moderator note:

    I think that's entirely unnecessary.
    If you consider some threads to contain questionable speech, that's your opinion. But cross-referencing and repetition, and highlighting other threads just serves ultimately, to make people selectively judgemental.

    Let's just stick to this discussion and not muddy the waters.
    Thanks.

  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @federica said:

    @upekka said:... if possible please bring up the relevant threads in this forum (i do not know how to do that)

    Moderator note:

    I think that's entirely unnecessary.
    If you consider some threads to contain questionable speech, that's your opinion. But cross-referencing and repetition, and highlighting other threads just serves ultimately, to make people selectively judgemental.

    Let's just stick to this discussion and not muddy the waters.
    Thanks.

    have patient with me @federica

    if possible let anyone find any thread relevant to 'things' i mentioned in my previous and bring them up for my use in my practice

    since this is a buddhist forum i think (may be i am wrong) it is not too much to ask it

    if you still think it is not relevant or you can not let any one to do that it is fine with me

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    No, I think it would be best to let my directive remain in place.

    Thanks.
    No response necessary.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @upekka all you have to do is use the search box at the top of the page. it searches by key words, so choose them wisely. But it works quite well.

    upekka
  • @karasti said:
    @upekka all you have to do is use the search box at the top of the page. it searches by key words, so choose them wisely. But it works quite well.

    i tried it just now after reading your post and now i know how to use it to get the information i want from this forum

    immense gratitude to you @karasti

    that is what i wanted and much merits to you

    lobsterkarasti
  • Steve_BSteve_B Far southwest corner of Indiana, USA Veteran

    'Twill be interesting to see if you use your new technological skill to pull us out of our comfort zones and into some contemplation zones and new understanding zones.

  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @DhammaDragon said:

    Right view is the alpha and omega of the N8P.

    could you explain this a bit further please

    @lobster said:
    Mind chatter occurs even when the outer speech form is gentle and right on or silent. So ultimately right speech is right internal dialogue/view.

    yes, but how do we know there is 'mind chatter'?
    i mean, what is the evidence that we have to say "there is 'mind chatter'"
    are we taking it for granted because we have read it or we have heard it?

    Lot of work to be done? You said it. Quiet mind, quiet speech ...

    agree with you completely, but it would be helpful if we can get some clues/directions who has trodden the way before

    @Steve_B said:
    'Twill be interesting to see if you use your new technological skill to pull us out of our comfort zones and into some contemplation zones and new understanding zones.

    sure, if i could get some more skills in next few meditations
    and
    i thank you all who have help me knowingly or unknowingly by contributing to 'my OPs'
    each and every contribution helped me (suttas, own experiences, humor, sarcasm, warnings, etc.)

    thanks again guys

    as Buddha once said (i have heard/read in a sutta) good friends (kalyana mittas) are the One and Only help to understand the 4NT (i paraphrased it, please correct if is wrong)

  • @upekka said:

    @DhammaDragon said:

    Right view is the alpha and omega of the N8P.

    as Buddha once said (i have heard/read in a sutta) good friends (kalyana mittas) are the One and Only help to understand the 4NT (i paraphrased it, please correct if is wrong)

    As a digression, whether or not the Buddha said it, I'm not sure it's true. Eckhart Tolle understood the 4NT without having studied the dharma, and there are plenty of us who study the dharma who don't truly understand the 4NT (including me).

  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @Tiddlywinds said:

    , I'm not sure it's true.

    until you are sure, do not accept it or do not reject it

    keep it aside and search yourself

    Eckhart Tolle understood the 4NT

    are you sure about this?
    we can guess he might have

    there are plenty of us who study the dharma who don't truly understand the 4NT

    are you sure about this?

    who study the dharma who don't truly understand the 4NT (including me).

    for sure you might be able to say this, but i am not saying this is true because i do not know it for sure

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator
    edited November 2016

    @upekka if I didn't know better I'd say you were trolling.... >:)

  • namarupanamarupa Veteran
    edited November 2016

    @SpinyNorman said:

    @namarupa said:
    How we handle our perceptions is what determines our speech/actions I believe. Having Right Views will ultimately become right speech.

    Good point, and skillful behaviour flows naturally from wisdom. But in the meantime we are encouraged to be more aware of the way we are behaving, like with the precepts and with the 8-fold path factors like Right Speech. "Fake it till you make it"?

    No need to fake anything really. If there is enough conviction in being a good person, there no need to see results as proof. It's just something you connect with and try to make it your everyday practice. The trying part is still real though (per se).

  • My Understanding of right speech is Not harming others with your speech.I focus on what my intentions are and also how that person will receive it. So if i mean well but know that what i say would hurt the person i wouldn't say it.

    Personally,the way i cultivate right speech is by refraining from wrong speech.I work with the negatives.( I don't know if this make sense).

    So instead of working with the positives:

    Say nice thing about 1 person today. etc.

    I work with the negatives:

    No Swearing.No Insulting.No being Condescending today,etc

  • yes, but how do we know there is 'mind chatter'?
    i mean, what is the evidence that we have to say "there is 'mind chatter'"
    are we taking it for granted because we have read it or we have heard it?

    Most of us hear it. You are perhaps asking if the chatter is 'real'. It certainly is experienced as relatively/karmically real. In other words we know/experience our mind as a 'monkey drowning in a stream of consciousnesses' to use an image.

    This is why right speech starts in silence/rest/repose. Otherwise we are just a bunch of gibberings in a bag ... So again, listening is the beginning of right speech.

  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @Akasha said:
    I work with the negatives:

    No Swearing.No Insulting.No being Condescending today,etc

    So 2 out of 3 ain't bad :awesome:

    _ /\ _

    Akasha
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