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Daily rituals

Hi here lately ive really been taking buddhism to heart, & i was wanting to know daily things to do, so far i meditate for 15 mins twice a day morning and evening and at night i listen to pema chodron a lot. So how do you put teachings into your daily life

Comments

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    So how do you put teachings into your daily life

    Just by putting into practice what's been preached...
    But don't fall into the trap of wanting to do it all perfect first time round....
    You might find this link video of interest @Emmalou "The 10% Advantage"

    Bunks
  • Hi Emmalou,

    Welcome. Balance is key. You may just be doing great already. The idea is to do less and be comfortable. To do more and be more stressful is not the right idea. You may just want to expand the length of your meditations gradually. It gets easier and balanced over time.

    Metta

  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    I loved that video so much. I have been trying to intregrade all of the teachings at once and been feeling ashamed that i cant remember it all, or feeling confused, but choosing a few things to start with is more resonable. Ive always been very hard on myself and feel the need to know everything on things i enjoy then i crash and burned. Ive been careful with buddhism though ive been going strongly dedicated daily since october 5th and can see changes.

    Shoshin
  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    namarupa thats what i beat myself up about the most ive kind of been a sloth. Im 8 months pregnant with a 2 year old and i dont get much done it seems, although ive become calmer i just havent been more productive. Its even hard writing this and admiting it out loud lol.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited December 2016

    It can be overwhelming to start. There is a lot of information out there! You will likely find that as you meditate, you will notice things shift as far as how you act and react in the world, how you view situations and people. Be aware of what the biggies are (the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold path) but don't try to force them. They aren't math problems. But when you are aware of them, you will see them start to take shape in your every day life over time. Buddhism isnt really something to conquer, but rather somethin to weave into your life and it'll happen just by being aware and meditating.

    That said, a routine is good and most people thrive with them, to some degree or another. I meditate first thing, then I do yoga. Then I write. It sets up my day to be more mindful and to stick to whatever intentions I wrote about.

    Emmalouwojciech
  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    The four noble truths and the eight fold path is a great starting place. Im finding i do need to keep it simple, & study what i know i was getting to the point where everything i felt i felt i needed answers right then and there or i felt i was a bad buddhist for not knowing everything. Its a constant process ive found with buddhism and always being aware of your mind and catching it before it gets hooked in a emotion. (Shenpa)

    Shoshin
  • Hello, welcome back :)

    I use the 'group power' of a dedicated bunch of ritualists every day
    https://www.insighttimer.com

    Then I share any insights/delusions/heresies
    http://goo.gl/YsckhQ

    The next day is different but I do the same ...

    As for 'knowing it all' - I am aiming to get rid of most of what is not really worth knowing anyways ... B)

    Emmalou
  • @Emmalou. To be 8 months pregnant with a 2 yr old and find yourself becoming calmer is already a wonderful fruition.

    lobsterEmmalouSteve_B
  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    grackle thank you. It is a big change usually things my husband or toddler would do that would just make me go off dont upset me as much. I mean i still feel those overwhelmed feelings, but thats it i just feel them and not add a whole lot of thoughts and build on them. Its been weird lol but good weird.

  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    I love the insight timer app thank you very much.

  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran

    @grackle said:
    @Emmalou. To be 8 months pregnant with a 2 yr old and find yourself becoming calmer is already a wonderful fruition.

    I completely agree with @grackle

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited December 2016

    I think the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path are basically the entirety of Buddhism :) Not just a good start. There is just a whole lot to discuss within them as far as understanding them to the level Buddha did. Understanding those, completely, would be pretty astounding.

    federica
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator

    Absolutely. Totally agree. Something I've said all along. Dead right, @karasti

  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran

    Trying to involve yourself with more Buddhist and heathful related activities as much as you can helps keep you on track. For me at least, inevitably my cravings for my more worldly attachments arises so instead of just totally giving in I allow a set amount of time for them, for example 2 hours of entertainment TV or movie a day or a cheat day per week on healthy eating. Taking regular day long vows to abstain helps me wean me off the negative habits too. For me all or nothing means that if I slip a little then why not slip a lot, some people are better going cold turkey though so find what works best for you.

    Kerome
  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    @karasti said:
    I think the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path are basically the entirety of Buddhism :) Not just a good start.

    They are very important, that is true. But they only fill half of Thich Nhat Hanh's book The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, he starts with them and continues on to the Three Dharma Seals, the Three Doors of Liberation, the Four Immeasurable Minds, and so on. Most of Zen derives from the Lankavatara Sutra, which is partly but not entirely related. And then there are things like the prohibition against intoxicants which appears in the Precepts, but which does not appear in the 4NT and the 8FP.

    Anyway I can recommend TNH's book, it is an excellent place to start reading.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited December 2016

    I have the book and have read it multiple times. But can you not look at all of those things and see how they point to either suffering, the causes of it, or how to over come it? They are ways to explain the basic teachings because at their core, they are extremely complex. The precepts are the basic foundation to preventing the worst of suffering. I'm not talking about just the words in the 4NT or the N8FP. But EVERYTHING that they are about. It really all comes down to suffering (what it is, how it arises) and how to alleviate it, and pretty much all sutras can be pointed back to one or the other.

  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran
    edited December 2016

    I've not read all of the sutras and so wouldn't feel qualified to make a categorical answer. Some of the things do point back to suffering, but then to say the 4NT and the 8FP are the entirety of the teachings is not correct. Just because something relates to the cessation of suffering doesn't mean it's in there or even implied.

    Further I have read many teachings about impermanence, non-self, and interbeing in the sutras and surrounding literature which are not really related to the 8FP or even the underlying problem of suffering, but instead seem to be an attempt to more fully understand the world.

    What I'm trying to get at is that there are many perspectives and much wisdom within the sutra's which the 4NT and the 8FP will not give you, no matter how often you read them to try and increase your depth of understanding. Yes, they are the core starting point of buddhism, but to say they are all is misleading.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    Believing in permanence is suffering. Believing in an abiding self is suffering. Interbeing is not a teaching of Buddha but is rather a very TNH way of explaining things. Nothing wrong with it, I quite enjoy it. Could we are ordinary mortals look at the 4Nt and 8FP and discern the 84,000 teachings from it? No. That is why we are students and not fully realized Buddhas. But Buddha knew, and he used those teachings to explain the core concepts contained in the 4NT and 8FP that lead to his realization and understanding of the world. Although, I fully understand that everything any single human being has ever known is something we can all know, should we do what they did to learn it. Which is why I think sometimes we get too hung up on everything else, and studying hundreds of thousands of sutras rather than making those same discoveries for ourselves. Which is entirely possible.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator
    edited December 2016

    @Kerome said:
    I've not read all of the sutras and so wouldn't feel qualified to make a categorical answer. Some of the things do point back to suffering, but then to say the 4NT and the 8FP are the entirety of the teachings is not correct. Just because something relates to the cessation of suffering doesn't mean it's in there or even implied.

    I'm afraid she's right, and I'm afraid it is. Suffering is the Main concept of the 4NT - and the Buddha himself stated that he had come to teach The Cause of Suffering and the Transcendence of Suffering. The cessation of suffering is the fundamental basis of the 4 NT, and following the 8Fold Path is the prescription to transcending it. Every single lesson the Buddha gave after his first sermon in Deer Park - is a different pointer to the 4NT and the 8Fold Path.

    Further I have read many teachings about impermanence, non-self, and interbeing in the sutras and surrounding literature which are not really related to the 8FP or even the underlying problem of suffering, but instead seem to be an attempt to more fully understand the world.

    Impermanence is a component of Suffering. Not-Self and Self are matters on which the Buddha chose to remain silent, merely pointing out that what mattered was "Stress, the cause of Stress, that Stress could be transcended, and the way to do so.

    The first is that the Buddha never said that there is no self, and he never said that there is a self. The question of whether a self does or doesn't exist is a question he put aside....

    In the Buddha's teaching on how to put an end to suffering, he asks you to make skillful use of both kinds of strategies — self strategies and not-self strategies — and to learn how to employ them ever more skillfully, with more awareness, more discernment, to help with the duties of the four noble truths.

    From here.

    What I'm trying to get at is that there are many perspectives and much wisdom within the sutra's which the 4NT and the 8FP will not give you, no matter how often you read them to try and increase your depth of understanding. Yes, they are the core starting point of buddhism, but to say they are all is misleading.

    I'm afraid the Buddha would disagree with you.

    "Bhikkhus, it is through not realizing, through not penetrating the Four Noble Truths that this long course of birth and death has been passed through and undergone by me as well as by you. What are these four? They are the noble truth of dukkha; the noble truth of the origin of dukkha; the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha; and the noble truth of the way to the cessation of dukkha. But now, bhikkhus, that these have been realized and penetrated, cut off is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no fresh becoming."

    — DN 16 (with dukkha left untranslated)

    The elephant's footprint
    [Ven. Sariputta:] "Friends, just as the footprints of all legged animals are encompassed by the footprint of the elephant, and the elephant's footprint is reckoned the foremost among them in terms of size; in the same way, all skillful qualities are gathered under the four noble truths. Under which four? Under the noble truth of stress, under the noble truth of the origination of stress, under the noble truth of the cessation of stress, and under the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress."

    From here.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited December 2016

    @Kerome said:
    I've not read all of the sutras and so wouldn't feel qualified to make a categorical answer. Some of the things do point back to suffering, but then to say the 4NT and the 8FP are the entirety of the teachings is not correct. Just because something relates to the cessation of suffering doesn't mean it's in there or even implied.

    Further I have read many teachings about impermanence, non-self, and interbeing in the sutras and surrounding literature which are not really related to the 8FP or even the underlying problem of suffering, but instead seem to be an attempt to more fully understand the world.

    What I'm trying to get at is that there are many perspectives and much wisdom within the sutra's which the 4NT and the 8FP will not give you, no matter how often you read them to try and increase your depth of understanding. Yes, they are the core starting point of buddhism, but to say they are all is misleading.

    @Kerome
    I think that's a case of where practitioners fail to connect the 4NTs & 8FP dots when they listen to a Dharma talk or read a Dharma text...

    I have found, the 4NTs & 8FP permeates all aspects of the Dharma, there's no escaping them, they are the foundations of all Buddha Dharma....

    The root from which all Dharmas grow

    When we listen to a Dharma talk or read a Dharma text, they are designed in such a way to provide the means for the receptive listener, to obtain the "Right View/Understanding" ...even though the 4NTs or 8FP are not mentioned directly, their 'influence' flows through the sentences heard or read....

    "Whoever sees Dependant Origination sees The Dharma-
    Whoever sees The Dharma sees Dependant Origination!"

  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    @person said:
    Trying to involve yourself with more Buddhist and heathful related activities as much as you can helps keep you on track. For me at least, inevitably my cravings for my more worldly attachments arises so instead of just totally giving in I allow a set amount of time for them, for example 2 hours of entertainment TV or movie a day or a cheat day per week on healthy eating. Taking regular day long vows to abstain helps me wean me off the negative habits too. For me all or nothing means that if I slip a little then why not slip a lot, some people are better going cold turkey though so find what works best for you.

    So how do i go about these vows?

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator

    You recite the triple Gem, and the 5 Precepts. That is how. Simple, but effective.
    Maintain Skillful Mindfulness, lest it becomes just a habit, like any other.... ;)

    Emmalou
  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    Very awesome information guys yall rock. I have been studying the four noble truths it took me a while to relize how much desires i had and understand desire doesn't just mean lust or greed power. It can be irritated with loud noises and actually acknowledge the reason you are irritated is the desire to want quite, & this is where i struggle because i never thought this way but it makes sense, so i wonder what other hidden desires i hold? Like right now im avoiding the morning dishes because i just dont want to lol. Its difficult breaking down the reasons why you do what you do.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator

    Turn washing dishes into a Meditation. Thich Naht Hahn teaches you how in "Present Moment Wonderful Moment"... he states one can accomplish a task without mental narrative or commentary... wash dishes, and be aware of every single sight and sensation, without focusing on them, or adding a mental description....

    Emmalou
  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    About the triple gem. I don't have a sangha unless i count this as one the nearest Sangha is 4 hours away.

  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    @federica said:
    Turn washing dishes into a Meditation. Thich Naht Hahn teaches you how in "Present Moment Wonderful Moment"... he states one can accomplish a task without mental narrative or commentary... wash dishes, and be aware of every single sight and sensation, without focusing on them, or adding a mental description....

    So don't focus on why i avoid it or berate myself just move through the moment aware and mindful, & im guessing this goes with all dificulties dont create a story line just flow through it, & dont question why its hard. Old teachings ive had not buddhism always suggested we find why we hurt and avoid things, but i think sometimes there is no answer, & i like that we can move through moments that stress us without added naratives. :)

  • Learn to pay attention to whatever is happening is a powerful tool to changing your mind. When our attention isn't fully developed then those pesky narratives get added.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    Sangha is the entire Buddhist community, IMO. You don't need a local group to have a Sangha. I include this forum as part of mine for sure. They are your support in the Dharma.

    Emmalou
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator

    @Emmalou said:

    @federica said:
    Turn washing dishes into a Meditation. Thich Naht Hahn teaches you how in "Present Moment Wonderful Moment"... he states one can accomplish a task without mental narrative or commentary... wash dishes, and be aware of every single sight and sensation, without focusing on them, or adding a mental description....

    So don't focus on why i avoid it or berate myself just move through the moment aware and mindful, & im guessing

    Not even as complicated as that. Just do it, as they say in nike advertising circles. Move past the berating or avoidance. Just get up, and start, but don't think or focus on the process. Just be mindful of how it feels, looks, smells, and is completed, without narrating commenting or thinking about it or anything else.

    this goes with all dificulties dont create a story line just flow through it, & dont question why its hard.

    No, you know why it's hard. Because either you love doing it and don't want it to endm or becuse you hate doing it and don't want it to start.

    Forget the difficulty, forget the story, forget the flow, forget the question. They're irrelevant. You alreasy know the answers.

    " 'Do' or 'Do not'. There IS no 'Try'. "

    Old teachings ive had not buddhism always suggested we find why we hurt and avoid things, but i think sometimes there is no answer, & i like that we can move through moments that stress us without added naratives. :)

    Liking is one thing. Doing it is quite another.

    Trust me, as one who knows! :D

    Emmalou
  • EmmalouEmmalou Tx Explorer

    Thank you very much > @federica
    I did do some housework wich made my anxiety go down, but in the moment i felt this rush and i just worked through it. I feel the more i do work through it this rush will subside. During these intense feelings i did dance with my big baby bump and all lol it was nice. It has been crazy actually really changing yourself, & relizing buddhism is an everyday training. I am learning so much, & am very amazed how im understanding life more, but i think i should make a new post about change before i really get off on that tangent.

    lobster
  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    @federica says:
    I'm afraid she's right, and I'm afraid it is.

    I'm afraid anyone stating opinion as fact in such a decided way always loses some of my respect. I never denied the importance of the 4NT, I merely said that they are incomplete, they are the shortest of short summaries, and therefore cannot be the "complete teachings". If they were, there wouldn't be a need for the rest of the sutra's. So much is plain to me, and seemingly others since TNH decided to dedicate half his book to other factors.

    Perhaps we will have to disagree, on this as on a few other topics.

    Steve_B
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @Kerome it's something I believe in my own understanding but it has been said by many, many much more educated Buddhist people than me, including many masters. That the 4 Noble Truths are all encompassing. That the entirety of the Buddha's teachings are within the 4NT. It is possible I am just not explaining it very well what I mean.

    From Thanissaro Bhikku:
    The four noble truths are the most basic expression of the Buddha's teaching. As Ven. Sariputta once said, they encompass the entire teaching, just as the footprint of an elephant can encompass the footprints of all other footed beings on earth.

    (and the sutra from Sariputra that he is talking about)

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator

    @Kerome said:

    @federica says:
    I'm afraid she's right, and I'm afraid it is.

    I'm afraid anyone stating opinion as fact in such a decided way always loses some of my respect. I never denied the importance of the 4NT, I merely said that they are incomplete, they are the shortest of short summaries, and therefore cannot be the "complete teachings". If they were, there wouldn't be a need for the rest of the sutra's. So much is plain to me, and seemingly others since TNH decided to dedicate half his book to other factors.

    Perhaps we will have to disagree, on this as on a few other topics.

    Hmmmm...ok. So @karasti doesn't convince, you, I can't persuade you, and it seems, even the Buddha can't either, although he stated as much in the Sutta passage I gave you (with reference)...
    So the three of us cannot convince you to stop, look at this again and think, "Well, maybe I'll investigate this specific aspect a little further for myself, and ask other Buddhist Teachers what their opinion is: ARE the 4NT and 8Fold path the fundamental root, basis and origins of ALL the Buddha's teachings?"

    Do Try this at home, readers.... ;)

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited December 2016

    @federica said:
    Do Try this at home, readers.... ;)

    OK will do:
    https://thebuddhistcentre.com/text/four-noble-truths
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/beliefs/fournobletruths_1.shtml

    "I teach suffering, its origin, cessation and path. That's all I teach", declared the Buddha 2500 years ago.

  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran
    edited December 2016

    It has also been said that if you look closely enough, all of the buddha's teachings can be found in any one.

    But this is essentially sophistry. Beautiful, but true only when you stand at the destination of great knowledge of the dharma. The reality for most students is that each teaching is a new leaf and can reveal new insights.

    @federica said:
    ARE the 4NT and 8Fold path the fundamental root, basis and origins of ALL the Buddha's teachings

    You seem to have twisted the standpoint we were arguing. My original post was in response to @karasti saying, the 4NT and the 8FP "are basically the entirety of Buddhism". That the 4NT are an excellent short summary of the teachings is not in doubt, but I take argument with calling it the "entirety" or "complete". That is to deny the value of much else that is written.

    We've had the Ven. Sariputta quoted several times, which I doubt is an accurate metaphor, and I've put forth some arguments to illustrate my view... I don't see an end in sight, and strength of numbers is certainly not going to cut it.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator

    You're an engineer. If it works, don't fix it. ;)

  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran
    edited December 2016

    Precision in using words is as important as their poetic beauty and inspirational quality, something I feel some of the airy-fairy spiritual crowd sometimes lose sight of B)

    lobster
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator
    edited December 2016

    Then, @kerome, read the suttas I gave you links to. The 4NT and the 8Fold Path are exactly as both @karasti AND I have described them.
    Simplify.
    Do not complicate Life with yet more complications. Do not re-invent the wheel.
    Don't gild the lily, or embellish the Lotus.
    Everything you need is there, in the simplest of teachings.

    Note: Simple does not mean Easy.

    If you can point to ANY teaching - any single one - that does not have the same instruction, simplified, within the 4NT and 8FP, then I will concede your right to your assessment.
    We've done our bit.
    Now YOU prove us wrong.

    dhammachick
  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran
    edited December 2016

    Fine, let's take as a small example the Saranagamana Sutra, the refuge text:

    I go to the Buddha for refuge.
    I go to the Dhamma for refuge.
    I go to the Sangha for refuge.

    A second time I go to the Buddha for refuge.
    A second time I go to the Dhamma for refuge.
    A second time I go to the Sangha for refuge.

    A third time I go to the Buddha for refuge.
    A third time I go to the Dhamma for refuge.
    A third time I go to the Sangha for refuge.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.1-9.than.html#khp-1

    Very significant within Buddhism, I'm sure you'll agree, and an important part of how Buddhists live their lives. Yet no mention of suffering or the cessation thereof, and since you maintain the 4NT and 8FP are complete, you can tell me how to get from those teachings to this.

    Even more to the point, if the 4NT and the 8FP are complete, how are you supposed to get from them to for example the Digha Nikaya 13, the Tevijja Sutra. You can get from DN13 to the 8FP, sure, some of what is said about moral conduct is closely related. But to make the connections without guidance requires wisdom equivalent to the Buddha's. The 4NT and 8FP do not include everything that is said in the Sutra, and so cannot be said to be complete.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator
    edited December 2016

    The Dhamma is there, and The Buddha's Dhamma begins with the 4 and the 8.

    The Buddha said that he was enlightened only after he understood these Four Noble Truths.

    Well, if it's good enough for him.... ;)

  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    And how do you get from the 4 and the 8 to the refuge?

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator

    "I dunno. Is this a quiz?"

    It's kind of obvious, isn't it?

  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    @federica said:
    "I dunno. Is this a quiz?"

    It's kind of obvious, isn't it?

    I don't think it is :) the refuge Sutra adds "new info's" which are not there in the 4NT and the 8FP. If you've read the 4 and the 8, you won't be able to guess the refuge without a lot of trial and error. Therefore, the 4 and the 8 are not the 'entirety' of the teaching.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator

    Ok, look: the triple gem is an ancient concept adopted originally by ordained monks, and the vow captures the whole essence of what it means to follow the Buddha.
    We're not saying all teachings are redundant, pointless or irrelevant.
    What we're saying is that the whole essence of the Dhamma, its structure, lessons and instructions, lie within and are underpinned by the 4, the 8 and the 5.
    I have ALWAYS said this. I have never deviated from my assertion. By all means, read what you want, absorb what you want. But whatever it is you want - is already encapsulated and contained within the 4NT, and the 8FP.

    Still waiting for you to counter-argue that point, and refute it via any kind of sutta, link or reference you can find.
    Why am I doing all the work here? To me, it's clear, you're the one arguing, so put your proverbial readies where your oral orifice is.... :D

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited December 2016

    I never suggested, in any way @Kerome, that none of the teachings are necessary or helpful beyond the 4NT. I am saying all of those other teachings are contained in the 4NT and those teachings were Buddha's (and later other teachers) way of explaining the 4NT so people all all different levels of understanding and places on their path can begin to understand the complexity of the 4NT. Of course the 3 Jewels fall within it. Because taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is the first step we take to accepting that we suffer and that Buddha found the answer, Dharma is it, and the Sangha is there to support in that quest.

    That doesn't mean we are all prepared to parse all the teachings out of the 4NT ourselves. Of course we are not, we are not enlightened. But we are capable of doing so, just as the Buddha was.

  • Steve_BSteve_B Far southwest corner of Indiana, USA Veteran

    @federica said:

    Hmmmm...ok. So @karasti doesn't convince, you, I can't persuade you, and it seems, even the Buddha can't either, although he stated as much in the Sutta passage I gave you (with reference)...
    So the three of us cannot convince you to stop, look at this again and think,

    Why is it important to you to win Kerome over to your point of view? Emmalou asked a question. Various people have offered their perspectives. The differences between these perspectives makes for an interesting discussion. If a respondent attacks the views of another respondent, is there a net gain?

  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran
    edited December 2016

    Well, I'm perfectly happy to let the thread stand on its own. I feel I've expressed the logic of my point of view relatively clearly.

    What we're saying is that the whole essence of the Dhamma, its structure, lessons and instructions, lie within and are underpinned by the 4, the 8 and the 5.
    I have ALWAYS said this. I have never deviated from my assertion. By all means, read what you want, absorb what you want. But whatever it is you want - is already encapsulated and contained within the 4NT, and the 8FP.

    Let's just say that I would consider it more true to say, "the 4NT and the 8FP set out the core concepts of Buddhist lore, and their words and meaning are referenced in many other sutra's", without making a claim about encapsulation, containment, or completeness.

    It is easy sometimes to be seduced by the elegance of an idea or a statement, which on close examination turns out to not actually be accurate in 100% of cases. First one starts to bend definitions a little bit, then a few exceptions appear, until the fine concept has turned into a mess that cannot be rescued. Have seen it happen more than a few times in software design.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator

    ^^ Yeah, I think we've chewed this one to death. :pleased:
    Pop kettle on, I'll bring biscuits.....

    Steve_Blobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited December 2016

    @Emmalou said:
    About the triple gem. I don't have a sangha unless i count this as one the nearest Sangha is 4 hours away.

    Tee Hee!
    In my Sangha (I have a closet full of monks, bodhi and Buddhas) I regularly talk to my imaginary friends ...
    You have an inner store of great ideals. Yes they may be you but they are the best, most knowing councillors/advisors/inspiration ...

    Lobster: 'Isn't that right Manjushri?'
    Manjushri: [Noble Silence]
    Lobster: 'Awesome and profound, Dude!'

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