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Remaining pockets of sanity in America

Steve_BSteve_B Far southwest corner of Indiana, USA Veteran

A political thread -- sorry -- but one of hope and inspiration.
This is a follow-on from Mountains' thread about the last day of sanity. But I am pleased to notice that sanity hasn't been driven extinct (despite mighty efforts) but is spontaneously manifesting in hopeful ways in a variety of places.
Here are two:

Airport officials facilitate protests
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/29/politics/us-immigration-protests/
This is actually a story about many different protests of the Muslim ban, but I noticed partway down the snippets about various officials going out of their way to make sure protests were facilitated. I work in facilities management, and I can tell you that this is quite astonishing. The LAST thing you want is a disruption boisterously clogging your facility. But a variety of folks at different airports shifted things on the fly to allow protesters to have their voices heard. Really remarkable. And heroically sane.

Starbucks pledges to hire refugees
http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/29/news/companies/starbucks-hiring-refugees/
Our new and cheerful government may want to slam the door on desperate war-ravaged homeless refugees, but Starbucks will take them in. Maybe the cultural leaders we'd like to see emerge to triumph over the new scourge aren't musicians after all; maybe they're wealthy business executives this time. Who'd've thought?

As you notice other little hidden pockets with manifestations of sanity, post them here.

BunkspersonVastmindkarastilobsterShoshinFlareonOmar067
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Comments

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    The other day I saw a clip about what the "mayor of Boston" had to say ...

    Bunks
  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran
    edited January 31

    Apparently UBER is loosing drivers and customers since their support of Trumps Muslim immigration ban. Lyft app downloads have surpassed UBER for the first time on Sunday. There is a #deleteUBER movement.

    The sane have risen and will be heard!

    Flareon
  • Do you get it now?
    Trump the person.
    We the (good) people. Much needed as always. <3

    justushobbits
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    That's it. Brexit, Trump, Tesco's...

    I am moving to Denmark....

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited February 2

    ^^. Denmark is a state of mind. o:) Oh I am so New Age Zenny ... ;)

    Dharma, remember her, is a new empty box. In a sense we replace junk thinking with right thoughts. Yep brainwashing for those who have nothing but gibbering monkeys and opinions in their box ... Then we start to use the calm and tool set to clear out/empty the box, rather than accumulating junk/karma.

    Eventually we flatten the box. Now we are in the biggest empty box of all.

    Welcome to the real world.
    Morpheus

    karastiFosdickherberto
  • JaySonJaySon Everywhere in the Cosmos Veteran
    edited February 2

    Violent riot in UC Berkeley last night.

    Not so sane.

    Speaking out and protesting is one thing, but beating people in the street with poles and smashing up local banks and stores is another.

  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran

    That was so sad to see because I liked where that protest was going while it was peaceful - trying to stop an alt-right speaker but once you start trashing the place you lose your point

    FlareonJaySon
  • FlareonFlareon Bridgewater, Virginia New

    Let's all just go to Canada. Justin Trudeau will take care of us.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    It wasn't that the protest went awry. These were not the protesters that caused this destruction and violence. This was a group of 150 masked thugs who the Oakland cops have had issues with for a while now.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/us/milo-yiannopoulos-berkeley/
    The same happened in MN when what start as peaceful protests are joined by street thugs who use such scenes as a reason to practice their anarchic beliefs in a somewhat anonymous way. They are not part of the protest movement at-large.

    Now, I am not a fan of using violence for anything. But, I do think often about the other side of these things. Milo Y. is violent in his speech at every turn. He is a hateful, spiteful turd who incites people and then points and says "see, look what you did!" Today, 8 DAPL protesters were charged huge fines for their part in protests. But is what the companies are doing not even more violent than throwing things? And the absurd violence the US govt has perpetrated against the Natives in the past, and during these protests? Where is the justice on the other side? When do the cops pay fines for exploding a grenade on a woman's arm and using violent means to dissolve a mostly peaceful protest? Like I said, fighting violence with violence isn't the answer. But I don't think it's right to only look at one reaction without looking what brought it about. In many cases, the violence that preceded it is much worse and affected many more people.

    JaySonTiggerDeformed
  • JaySonJaySon Everywhere in the Cosmos Veteran

    I like to hear both sides. But I don't want to catch a fist.

    I think both sides are imperfectly human. Though I lean toward Libertarian ideals.

    Meaning... You can live however you want as long as you don't harm anyone else.

    To threaten with violence a speaker with a different point of view is a definite no no.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    To me though, a different point of view, and a violent, harmful, hate-spewing rhetoric are not the same thing. Viewing topics differently is one thing. Treating people poorly, even with words, is another. To me anyhow. I think Milo IS causing harm with the kind of speeches he is giving, especially to malleable and impressionable young minds. He is basically a bully on a national stage, and there is a reason we don't tolerate bullying as an acceptable means of expressing your "different view." Because it hurts people to the tune that dozens of people every year kill themselves over it.

  • JaySonJaySon Everywhere in the Cosmos Veteran
    edited February 2

    The first amendment entitles everyone to free speech.

    Yet there is no amendment that entitles anyone to freedom of violence against those who disagree with you.

    (Of course some countries believe in censorship)

    Deformed
  • Will_BakerWill_Baker Vermont Veteran

    @federica said:
    That's it. Brexit, Trump, Tesco's...

    I am moving to Denmark....

    -My God, I just realized with that tunnel, you could drive to Denmark...

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    These links are also interesting...

    Hate Speech Laws by country

    Freedom of Speech by country

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited February 3

    In the US, the Declaration came before the Constitution, and it is what guarantees us the " certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." If interpretations of Constitutional rights cause someone else to be unable to reasonably have life, liberty and happiness, then they've crossed a line. Ie: you don't get to bully someone because you are removing their right happiness. You don't get to use your beliefs to cause someone else to lack access to their life, liberty or happiness.

    Edited to remove off-topic blather of mine

    I did just see this, a good example of why your free speech doesn't get you a free pass. Bullied teen killed himself and his boss at work is charged with manslaughter for contributing to his suicide via her bullying and treatment of him, none of which caused him physical harm but clearly harmed him to a severe enough degree.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/02/us/suicide-dairy-queen-charge-trnd/index.html

  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran

    Freedom of speech is a right that comes with responsibility and accountability

    karasti
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    Indeed. I liken it to Right Speech. While I wouldn't make a law on the basis of it, I think it's a wonderful guideline to determine if something is harmful or not. And if you can't answer that it's not, then you have some thinking to do about the things you are saying, especially when you are addressing large groups of people. Regardless of what the legalities may or may not be.

    Tigger
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 3

    ^--- Avatar...... ;)

  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited February 3

    @JaySon said:
    Violent riot in UC Berkeley last night.

    Not so sane.

    Speaking out and protesting is one thing, but beating people in the street with poles and smashing up local banks and stores is another.

    The Berkeley incident was a case of outside anarchist agitators invading a peaceful protest to create chaos. It's not the first time it's happened in Berkeley, and it's something that's been going on in the US since the WTO conference protest in Seattle in the 90's. The university administration stated to the media (a simple search for CNN, USA Today, etc. articles would reveal this) that the students' demonstration was peaceful, and that they recognized the black-dressed figures as being from a violent anarchist organization in Oakland.

    IMO, it's crucial that peaceful protesters prepare for these outsiders, by planning to sit down en masse when violence breaks out. That would expose the perpetrators, sending a clear message to them and to the public that peaceful demonstrators are not part of the violence nor do they support it, and it would make the perpetrators easily accessible to police. This is a simple strategy that students and other organizers haven't realized is necessary; it seems no one has figured out that the problem of violent outsiders infiltrating peaceful actions has become a chronic problem and must be planned for and dealt with.

    karastiownerof1000oddsocks
  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran
    edited February 3

    The same thing happened in Toronto during the G20 summit in 2010. The majority if Torontonians protested peacfully or were just there to watch the chaos but it was the outsiders that went around smashing windows and burning police vehicles. It felt like Martial Law which was strange to see in Toronto. Police started arresting everyone on the street. Later some police officers had court cases due to unlawful arrests.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited February 3

    Apparently, they (the college) knew this group was planning to come. They had a huge police presence as a result, including copters and the whole deal. The admin requested to cancel the event, but the college higher ups refused. This is per one of the professors that was involved with planning it. The first tried to cancel it because Milo held up a photo of and named a student in WI and mocked him for being transgender in front of his audience. They refused to cancel. The day of, they found out about the extremists. Here is part of what she said. Her name is Linda Haverty Rugg.

    "On the day of the event we received word that right-wing extremists would be on campus, and we knew that in all likelihood there would be a left-wing radicals and anarchists as well. A fully ramped-up police presence was in place by the afternoon, with helicopters overhead, extra officers, barricades, fire trucks, and ambulances. Berkeley PD was in evidence, and we I would find out later that Oakland PD was at the ready as well. A peaceful gathering of about 1000 or more students and faculty were protesting when a group of masked demonstrators in black broke into the scene and began to shoot off fireworks, set things on fire, throw things at the police, overturn barricades, and break windows at the venue. At that point the event was canceled, in part to protect Milo and his audience. The agitators moved on to vandalize our campus, but the students and faculty dispersed peacefully, and many began to pick up trash and clean Telegraph Ave." She mentions later that some of the protesters were attacked and injured by the masked people.

    As Tigger mentioned, it has happened at a lot of protests, including the Native DAPL protests, and the Castille shooting protests last summer in MN.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    A friend posted this today, I thought it was a good read.
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/ctbw.htm

  • NeleNele Veteran

    At University of CO at Boulder, the protests were peaceful when Milo came to town. But the next day I heard a conservative radio announcer, who attended the event, say he really, really wanted one of the "lefties" to hit him, but it didn't happen. Really. This leads to a larger idea that's floating around out there: this Milo is basically an agitator, the most recent visible edge of a group of conservatives that want to see colleges and universities lose Federal funding due to their freethinking (i.e. intrinsically liberal) nature. And hey presto, the Donald is already threatening such. There really seems to be no limit to the widening cesspool of American politics.

    Did you ever think you'd see the day when half of the American voting population have disdain for a college education?

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    I think a lot of the people who voted for Trump ignored his worst qualities and policies and went for something they saw as the biggest issue and liked his answer best, and he won their votes based on that alone (largely the promise to restore jobs to a very large segment of the population that did not see job recovery while professional industries did). I doubt hardly any of them voted for him thinking he'd harm higher education. They either didn't know, or just didn't care enough over the issues that were more important to them.

  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran

    I hadn't really thought of it until now @Nele, but I have no doubt that a vocal segment of the far right want to destroy and eliminate liberal institutions. It's scary to imagine a world where they succeed. My hope is that, like @karasti said much of his support came from those who wouldn't support that kind of thing and were only hoping for better job prospects.

  • It is a nice fantasy(CAL sessions)
    We are a doner state. We get 65% back of what we pay in on a good year. Alaska, Alabama and Georgia, to name a few, would be loath to see us take our money and leave the table - they are taker states. Less $ for them. Red States are so ungrateful, calling us bad names while taking our money. Tsk, tsk!

    Well, back to my hot cocoa.

    Peace to all

    lobster
  • IMO, it's crucial that peaceful protesters prepare for these outsiders, by planning to sit down en masse when violence breaks out. That would expose the perpetrators, sending a clear message to them and to the public that peaceful demonstrators are not part of the violence nor do they support it, and it would make the perpetrators easily accessible to police.

    Good plan.
    Surely the police can only break up peace-niks when they allegedly turn violent ... Not that the gestapo police would ever do anything underhand [allegedly] ... As for the anarchic outsiders, citizen arrest them, escort them by stewards to the police etc. Police plus protestors can work together ... in fact it is a plan ...

  • ZenCanuckZenCanuck Toronto, ON Explorer

    @karasti said:

    >

    Now, I am not a fan of using violence for anything. But, I do think often about the other side of these things. Milo Y. is violent in his speech at every turn. He is a hateful, spiteful turd who incites people and then points and says "see, look what you did!" Today, 8 DAPL protesters were charged huge fines for their part in protests. But is what the companies are doing not even more violent than throwing things? And the absurd violence the US govt has perpetrated against the Natives in the past, and during these protests? Where is the justice on the other side? When do the cops pay fines for exploding a grenade on a woman's arm and using violent means to dissolve a mostly peaceful protest? Like I said, fighting violence with violence isn't the answer. But I don't think it's right to only look at one reaction without looking what brought it about. In many cases, the violence that preceded it is much worse and affected many more people.

    Howzabout the new Kommandant-in-Chief and his brainless lackeys condemning the violence when they were encouraging their supporters to get violent with protesters at his campaign rallies last year?

  • ZenCanuckZenCanuck Toronto, ON Explorer

    @Nele said:

    Did you ever think you'd see the day when half of the American voting population have disdain for a college education?

    So do I, sometimes, when I see college students acting or talking as rigid and dogmatic as the conservatives they so self-righteously condemn.

    Milos Y may be on the extreme fringe but some other speakers who've created liberal tizzies on college campuses include the feminist Christina Hoff-Summers who speaks out against 'safe spaces' and 'trigger warnings' which more and more have come to mean 'insulating one's self from opinions we simply don't like', and here in Toronto, a Univ of Toronto professor for whom some students were calling for his firing just because he said he wasn't going to use a third set of pronouns from people who are 'gender binary'.

    Now, however you feel about safe spaces, trigger warnings or 'gender binary' identification, college students are making it quite clear that they want to hear the liberal and liberal side only and can't even fathom anyone who dares challenge the liberal party line. When you try to get a man fired because he won't use the "correct" terminology for something you can't even agree on (he's confused by the whole 'gender binary' thing as am I), and you TRY TO GET HIM FIRED, well, not only have you got major big-time First World Problems, but you're no better than the Post Turtle screaming for the head of a federal judge because he doesn't like the way the judge ruled on his immigration ban.

    I consider myself largely leftist but even I'm appalled by what rigid little left-wing Nazis college students have become - no better than the right-wing nuts they condemn.

    http://www.newsweek.com/2016/06/03/college-campus-free-speech-thought-police-463536.html

    Unfortunately, these are the very people and actions that fuel Trump, Milos Y, the alt-right, etc...No one listens to anyone else and insulates themselves in their own little echo chambers. Thich Nhat Hanh wrote of the "war on terror" more than ten years ago in The Art of Power where he points out that 'deep listening' fixes problems better than guns and bombs.

    There are grievances on the Trump side that the left didn't want to listen to and it was driven underground and now spews out in its nastiest, ugliest form. I wonder if we could have avoided this if people on both sides would STFU and listen more.

    person
  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran
    edited February 7

    With all due respect, you don't seem to be doing that yourself. Blaming the left for what the right is doing, that's just wrong. Unless you're Muslim or a minority that feels they need a safe place, I wouldn't comment. Unless you're transgender, I wouldn't comment. I have a feeling that you're neither. The only reason some people feel sensitive to these issues is because of what they have been through in the past. I also think calling them left-wing Nazi's is a little disrespectful. Do you know what a Nazi is and what they have done #rhetorical

    I do agree with you though that both sides need to listen but they are too concerned with pushing their own agenda.

    karasti
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    As with most things the media pushes extremes. Yes, there are some crazy things that have happened or almost happened (like a yoga instructor being forced off campus for stealing India's culture after a small group pushed for it despite the numerous people she helped). But those aren't the norm. If you think they are I suggest you spend some time on college campuses and hang out with young people. I have a college son, and he would not agree either that these things are normal. Colleges, from the very liberal to the conservative, are still among the biggest institutions to insist on free speech that there are. They are still places where young people learn how to open their minds to other people and ideas, and this happens much more often than the other stuff you mention. Perhaps it is more common in your area, as several of the stories I've seen suggesting such things have all been from Toronto. That doesn't mean it's common place though.

    It seems to me that you yourself @ZenCanuck have issues with some of these things simply because you don't understand them. Your lack of understanding doesn't mean those things aren't sometimes needed. Why do you insist on invalidating those who don't feel they fit in a gender box by using quotations? There is no reason to do such things. Why call a whole group of young people "rigid little left wing Nazis"?

    Tigger
  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran

    @ZenCanuck said:

    @Nele said:

    Did you ever think you'd see the day when half of the American voting population have disdain for a college education?

    So do I, sometimes, when I see college students acting or talking as rigid and dogmatic as the conservatives they so self-righteously condemn.

    Milos Y may be on the extreme fringe but some other speakers who've created liberal tizzies on college campuses include the feminist Christina Hoff-Summers who speaks out against 'safe spaces' and 'trigger warnings' which more and more have come to mean 'insulating one's self from opinions we simply don't like', and here in Toronto, a Univ of Toronto professor for whom some students were calling for his firing just because he said he wasn't going to use a third set of pronouns from people who are 'gender binary'.

    Now, however you feel about safe spaces, trigger warnings or 'gender binary' identification, college students are making it quite clear that they want to hear the liberal and liberal side only and can't even fathom anyone who dares challenge the liberal party line. When you try to get a man fired because he won't use the "correct" terminology for something you can't even agree on (he's confused by the whole 'gender binary' thing as am I), and you TRY TO GET HIM FIRED, well, not only have you got major big-time First World Problems, but you're no better than the Post Turtle screaming for the head of a federal judge because he doesn't like the way the judge ruled on his immigration ban.

    I consider myself largely leftist but even I'm appalled by what rigid little left-wing Nazis college students have become - no better than the right-wing nuts they condemn.

    http://www.newsweek.com/2016/06/03/college-campus-free-speech-thought-police-463536.html

    Unfortunately, these are the very people and actions that fuel Trump, Milos Y, the alt-right, etc...No one listens to anyone else and insulates themselves in their own little echo chambers. Thich Nhat Hanh wrote of the "war on terror" more than ten years ago in The Art of Power where he points out that 'deep listening' fixes problems better than guns and bombs.

    There are grievances on the Trump side that the left didn't want to listen to and it was driven underground and now spews out in its nastiest, ugliest form. I wonder if we could have avoided this if people on both sides would STFU and listen more.

    I'd recommend Jonathan Haidt for a respectful take on the over reaches of the left, particularly the rising issue of the thought police on campuses.

  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @karasti said:. Why call a whole group of young people "rigid little left wing Nazis"?

    Thank you!!!! Can we PLEASE desist from this?????

    Tigger
  • ZenCanuckZenCanuck Toronto, ON Explorer

    @Tigger said:
    With all due respect, you don't seem to be doing that yourself. Blaming the left for what the right is doing, that's just wrong. Unless you're Muslim or a minority that feels they need a safe place, I wouldn't comment. Unless you're transgender, I wouldn't comment. I have a feeling that you're neither. The only reason some people feel sensitive to these issues is because of what they have been through in the past. I also think calling them left-wing Nazi's is a little disrespectful. Do you know what a Nazi is and what they have done #rhetorical

    I do agree with you though that both sides need to listen but they are too concerned with pushing their own agenda.

    Why on earth do you need to be a member of a group to comment? Do you really think outsiders have no right to their opinion? Do you think insiders can look at their situation any way other than subjectively? Assuming we don't have the right to comment because we don't belong to X or Y group is just another way of insulating them (or insulating themselves) from opinions or criticisms they don't like.

    Bet no one has a problem with positive comments, if offered by an outsider...

  • ZenCanuckZenCanuck Toronto, ON Explorer

    @dhammachick said:

    @karasti said:. Why call a whole group of young people "rigid little left wing Nazis"?

    Thank you!!!! Can we PLEASE desist from this?????

    Sorry if I upset people with my language. How do y'all feel about the efforts to squash free speech by some members of the left?

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    I already commented about it. Free speech is not really free. It does have limits from a moral standpoint even if the government can't legally prosecute you for it. Opposing views are one thing. I am open to hearing all sorts of other views. Harmful speech that actually impacts people on a very real basis is abuse and shouldn't be tolerated any more than we tolerate mental or emotional abuse of kids, spouses or anyone else. I let the laws take care of the legalities. For my part, I'm not going to support abuse or hate because I believe it is harmful. Are there problems going on that shouldn't be? Yes. But I don't in any way believe they represent an entire generation of young people.

    Tigger
  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited February 8

    @ZenCanuck said:
    Sorry if I upset people with my language.

    No, you're really not, or you wouldn't have made this post.

    How do y'all feel about the efforts to squash free speech by some members of the left?

    Being upset about "efforts to squash free speech" and passionately saying so does not equal consistently referring to Hitler.

    Tigger
  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited February 8

    @ZenCanuck said:

    Why on earth do you need to be a member of a group to comment? Do you really think outsiders have no right to their opinion?

    No I think they're entitled to their opinion. As a member of such a "group" myself, I appreciate all the support I'm shown, but if you're an "outsider" whilst you can empathise and defend all you want, you can't understand as you don't go through what we do. It's not being elitist, snobby or insulting - it's a fact.

    Do you think insiders can look at their situation any way other than subjectively?

    Yes. The hatred I encounter on an almost daily basis by "outsiders" proves it.

    Bet no one has a problem with positive comments, if offered by an outsider...

    Answered above.

    Tigger
  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran

    @ZenCanuck said:
    Why on earth do you need to be a member of a group to comment?

    Why on earth? Because unless you have been there, unless you are part of a group that feels uncomfortable with how people view you and the things they say, you shouldn't comment. You are free to say what you want, it's a free country but VERY irresponsible. I would NEVER comment on how a black person feels because I'm not black so I cannot even begging to understand. I would NEVER comment on how a Muslim feels because I am not Muslim so I have no idea. You can have your views and comments but let's be honest, your post was anything but compassionate and understanding. Everyone can comment but it's what your comment is that matters.

    If you feel safe spaces are a bad idea then a better comment would be discussing how we can make EVERYONE feel safe so we don't need them instead of what you wrote. Again, this is my opinion and you're entitled to yours but I cannot stand by and just read a post like that without saying something.

    karastidhammachick
  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran

    @ZenCanuck said:

    Sorry if I upset people with my language. How do y'all feel about the efforts to squash free speech by some members of the left?

    I started a thread about this not that long ago

    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/24089/has-pc-culture-gone-too-far-with-micro-aggression#latest

    Vastmind
  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran

    @ZenCanuck said:
    How do y'all feel about the efforts to squash free speech by some members of the left?

    I'm assuming (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) that the squashing of free speech by the left that you are referring to here is the left wanting to be politically correct, am I right?. In my opionion this is not squashing free speech, it's being responsible with your speech since we now live in a more multi-cultural environment. Being a little more sensative to other cultures or religions does NOT affect me in any way, if it affects you then maybe you need to look at why it makes you so angry to not be able to say things like "curry for brians".

    By the way, someone in the Trump administration said yesterday that Trump will stop saying that the media is fake news when they stop attacking him in the news...what do you call that. I call it squashing free speech, and it was the right that said it.

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