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Globalism vs Protectionism

Globalism vs Protectionism

  1. Which do you favor? Why?
  2. What is your "Buddhist" opinion on this?

That was two different questions mind you. :)

I myself see a global leadership as inevitable but have no prognosis on when. Think it could be a good thing in the end but there will be some ins and outs before we get to the "good" part.

Comments

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    Good morning, @Victorious , and what a long absence it has been. How are you?

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    I could not choose category when I created the discussion. Could someone give me instructions on how to move it or maybe admin could move it to appropriate category?
    Thanks

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator
    edited March 31

    It seems to fit fine here.... what would you suggest...?

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    Fine thanks @federica. Yes my presence has been better used elsewhere. :). Hope you are fine too?

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @federica said:
    It seems to fit fine here.... what would you suggest...?

    That is alright then!

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    :+1:
    Very well, thanks.
    That's the polite entrees over with.

    As to your question, I'll let others chime in. I'm the least political soul you culd ask....

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @Victorious said:
    Globalism vs Protectionism

    1. Which do you favor? Why?
    2. What is your "Buddhist" opinion on this?

    Have you been busy beating people up and fighting again? :p
    (@Victorious is a martial artist) <3

    I favour neither. I don't find them the only options. I am on a globe and I protect and share what I can (not my antique sardine tin collection). Not quite what you meant? Ah well ...

    As for my Buddhist opinion. I feel we should be intergalactic, multidimensional and kind to demons, trumps, dumps and fish as well as martial artists, anti-Buddhists, Hinayanists (not that they exist anymore apparently) and our family, friends, pets and all sentient and non sentient arisings. For example I am very kind to my computer. One day it will incarnate as an AI-Buddha - ay caramba!

    Here to help o:)

    Victoriousdhammachick
  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    I feel that globalisation is a trend that favours the rich getting richer... it is not directly bad in itself, but it tends to lead to global mega-corporations, huge mergers, cartels, and the necessity for others to operate on similar scales in order to compete. These also favour huge disparities between rich and poor.

    Protectionism is a short term stop-gap reaction to that. It can protect local markets and so allow different conditions and smaller corporations to survive, but it will ultimately be at a higher cost to the consumer, with its trade barrriers, and so it isn't a permanent solution.

    My thinking is that we will need a global cap on the size of corporations. For example in the US when Standard Oil and AT&T Bell became too dominant they were split up. I think that's a mechanism that's necessary for a market where there are globally less than a dozen competitors.

    Further a full solution to the problem of globalisation will include solving the problems of wealth redistribution. It's well known that more egalitarian societies are happier - look at the Scandinavian countries. Government should aim at having the largest number of happiest citizens, not just doing what is necessary.

    ShoshinVictoriouslobsterperson
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited March 31

    @lobster said:

    Have you been busy beating people up and fighting again? :p

    Well yes sort of. But only verbally. Sorry...

    Have been looking into the (global) alt right movement and assessing different approaches to understanding the mindsets of these people that I honestly do not get. It has been a learning experience. I get them better now.

    Also I have been trying to pound some sense into some thick sculls in the Swedish alt right camp. That is where the beating (verbally) comes in. o:) .

    I have first hand learnt the meaning of Fact Resistant, Alternative Facts and Alternative Media. Sigh...

    Of course I knew all the time that I was right. =) . Obviously...

  • DavidDavid some guy The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran

    @Victorious said:
    Globalism vs Protectionism

    1. Which do you favor? Why?
    2. What is your "Buddhist" opinion on this?

    That was two different questions mind you. :)

    I myself see a global leadership as inevitable but have no prognosis on when. Think it could be a good thing in the end but there will be some ins and outs before we get to the "good" part.

    I would like to see them work together as long as protectionism doesn't devolve to nationalism.

    I really don't think globalism will work unless we recognize that we are all in this thing together and a world wide dollar is used at the local store.

    That would mean no third world countries to exploit which would ease up on the need to tax imports so much.

    It would be so nice if we could keep the competition to sports and scientific achievements while strictly working together not for money but for the common good and growth of all sentient life forms.

    Every single one of us has something we bring to the table. If that is not recognized and nourished to its fullest potential, a global community becoming self aware will never happen. And let's not kid ourselves, it is at least a global community.

    I it's almost like we've forgotten that money was made to fit the way we do things, not the other way around.

    I'm just sitting here wondering when the world will begin.

    Victorious
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    I'm just sitting here wondering when the world will begin.

    I think very soon. Maybe it has already begun.

  • NamadaNamada Veteran
    edited March 31

    Globalism vs Protectionism?

    Its better for the consumer to not think about boarders, one free market where everyone can buy and sell whitout regulations from the goverment.
    Goverment dosent work more for the people, their only interest is to figure out how to charge more taxes from the people and protect the rich elite.

    Victorious
  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran
    edited March 31

    I don't support either because I know where either will take us (IMO). It's a nice thought to think but only in theory, really. If you look at communism and what it could accomplish, it seems like it would be a good idea except for one thing and one thing I feel will never go away - GREED!. I could wrap globalisation and protectionism into a nice little package as well but once the ill minded get to it, it will be used as an instrument for the rich to get richer and widen the gap between the rich and the poor, eliminating the middle class. Or used as a tool to grow nationalism. I don't see that ever changing. With that said, my parents escaped communism in Poland in 1981 by moving to Canada. My parents pretended they were going on a trip to escape the country. They couldn't tell their parents or friends and believe when they left that they would never see their parents again. We all know that communism in Eastern Europe ended in 1989 so who knows, maybe one day it is possible. My parents often say that if you would have told them in 1981 when we left Poland that communism would one day fall, they would have laughed in your face as the very thought was seen as ridiculous and not possible and here we are years later.

    Just my opinion =) <3

    Oh, and welcome back @David!

    Victorious
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    Does it affect the supply of Neapolitan ice-cream? :p

    TiggerVictorious
  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran

    It seems like economically there is more wealth created through free trade and globalism. But that also causes a lot of change which can be hard for the actual people who make up and are the purpose of a healthy economy. I think it's really important that the wealth being created does get distributed down well enough to provide us plebs with safety and security, if not things could get even uglier than alt right politics. I have wondered for a while now if some protectionism is a good thing, if a little inefficiency is worth a slower rate of change and more job security.

    Also we face problems and changes on a global scale that nations alone aren't able to handle without some kind of cooperation. Climate change, an agreed upon ethics towards bio engineering, safe AI, dangerous weapons. An individual country can say we shouldn't engineer humans but if China goes ahead no one is just going to sit on their principles while China breeds a generation of geniuses.

    I think the fear is conglomeration of power and corruption, the hope is a more harmonious and prosperous world for all.

  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran

    I hope I'm dead before all this happens :p

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @Tigger said:
    I hope I'm dead before all this happens :p

    All what?

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:
    Does it affect the supply of Neapolitan ice-cream? :p

    There is ice-creame? Where? O.o

    lobster
  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran
    edited March 31

    @Victorious said:
    All what?

    A global leader....I was kidding....sort of

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    The idea that we own or manage anything in this world is silly to me. The planet owns itself and reminds us frequently. I think borders are stupid and protection of them only increases the problems of the world. Almost all of the land has been stolen from others and stolen by those people prior. It's just people thinking they control something an trying to pretend their occupation of said space didn't come at a HUGE cost to a whole lot of other beings. That is how human existence has always been, and I don't expect it to change any time soon. In my little world, I would 100% support full globalization. I just don't expect it will happen because there are just too many vastly differeing cultures and peoples who don't want to live like others. Our cultures shape our values. Thinking one person can lead them all is a mistake. Akin to thinking one president can lead the US, which obviously isn't working out because he/she will always be at odds with about half of the people. And it's not really working in most other places, either. We just fight and the balance tips when one group gets more pissed off than the other. Then we sit until it happens again.

    My Buddhist opinion doesn't really vary much from that. Buddhism is how I live my life, so why should it vary vastly? How does my view fit within Buddhism perhaps? I can't say if it does or doesn't. But I think borders and the idea we must protect ourselves is the epitomy of dualistic thinking and I'm not a fan.

    lobsterTiggerVictorious
  • TiggerTigger Toronto, Canada Veteran

    I agree with @karasti. I can't imagine the entire worl having one leader because of the vast differences in cultures. It could never happen/work.

    Victoriousdhammachick
  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:
    Does it affect the supply of Neapolitan ice-cream? :p

    The local supply of ice cream is restored... the two Italian gelaterias in the area have re-opened for summer.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    1. Internationalism.
    2. My Buddhist opinion is that internationalism is compatible with, and can be an achieved through the practice and understand of, the four brahmaviharas and the interconnectedness/interdependence of all things.
    Victorious
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited April 1

    Thanks guys you have broadened my view on this issue.

    Let me just explain my view a little bit. Globalism for me is not capitalism or communism, it is not dictatorship. Globalism or as Jason puts it Internationalism is for me the way for the small guy to be able to run and rule E's life with minimal interference from government and with as big a wholesome impact on E's environment.
    My view comes closest to Karastis and Jasons. As they point out for themselves I do not have a separate view on the two questions.

    Maybe I am using the wrong word. Maybe the reason I am using that word is because my feeling of belonging (as far as I feel I need one) does not limit to one country but rather the the Globe itself and ultimately to the universe. I do not feel entirely Swedish nor entirely Sri Lankan but I do feel entirely Lankaean (the formation of the known universe) or in other words Yggdrasilian which would be the Norse word. ;).

    I think that a global leadership does not have to be ONE man or woman. But could be democratic. Still to come to that there must be a severe limitation on what the government decides and practical problems must be solved systematically, automatically. After all everyday life is a problem of resource division. Not rocket science.

    Of course for this to work people need to be on an entirely different level of maturity.
    More thoughts are welcome. Mine are not yet fastened down... =)

    karasti
  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran

    @Victorious said:
    Of course for this to work people need to be on an entirely different level of maturity.

    Really it all probably comes down to this, whether it's globablism, nationalism, capitalism, socialism. Any system is vulnerable to the corrupting effects of human flaws and any system can probably do well if the people who make it up are virtuous.

    Victorious
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    edited April 2

    @Kerome said:

    @SpinyNorman said:
    Does it affect the supply of Neapolitan ice-cream? :p

    The local supply of ice cream is restored... the two Italian gelaterias in the area have re-opened for summer.

    I am worried there might be problems with Neapolitan supply, now that the UK is leaving the EU. Maybe if we give Gibraltar to Spain they will agree free movement of ice-cream? :p

    lobster
  • DavidDavid some guy The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran

    @Victorious said:
    Thanks guys you have broadened my view on this issue.

    Let me just explain my view a little bit. Globalism for me is not capitalism or communism, it is not dictatorship. Globalism or as Jason puts it Internationalism is for me the way for the small guy to be able to run and rule E's life with minimal interference from government and with as big a wholesome impact on E's environment.
    My view comes closest to Karastis and Jasons. As they point out for themselves I do not have a separate view on the two questions.

    Maybe I am using the wrong word. Maybe the reason I am using that word is because my feeling of belonging (as far as I feel I need one) does not limit to one country but rather the the Globe itself and ultimately to the universe. I do not feel entirely Swedish nor entirely Sri Lankan but I do feel entirely Lankaean (the formation of the known universe) or in other words Yggdrasilian which would be the Norse word. ;).

    That's how I feel as well.

    I'm also with @karasti about borders but I feel they would have a usefulness in regards to preference of living.

    I think that a global leadership does not have to be ONE man or woman. But could be democratic. Still to come to that there must be a severe limitation on what the government decides and practical problems must be solved systematically, automatically. After all everyday life is a problem of resource division. Not rocket science.

    And that's just it. There is still this disconnect between the people and the government but really the government is just made up of people. I think perhaps even the word "government" is getting outdated. We don't really need appointed leaders because a true leader will stand out regardless. What we would need are representatives and any and all power would have to be weilded by the masses.

    Of course for this to work people need to be on an entirely different level of maturity.
    More thoughts are welcome. Mine are not yet fastened down... =)

    Yeah. It's hard to get everybody on the same page when nobody is shown the respect of being able to finish a sentence without jeers.

    I think scientific advancement will have to make greed obsolete before we kick these growing pains.

    Victorious
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    Thanks @David. Yes. Greed, ill-will and avijja are the eternal enemies. But somehow I think it is too much to ask of people to entirely become devoid of these traits. (I mean look at us here, how we try and fail :) ). We will never get there. Instead I think the solution must be to build a system that facilitates the satisfaction of reasonable greed, reasonable ill-will (what the H is that? :) ) and reasonable ignorance.

    And I think that is what you are saying too?

    I think scientific advancement will have to make greed obsolete before we kick these growing pains.

    I have been thinking about "citizens pay". A fixed amount of resources made available to citizens without any form of requirement.

    But also about the government monopolizing the private bank lending system...
    I think that is a better solution...initially.

    But the first system require advancements in automation. The last one less so.

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    I like what you are saying @Victorious <3
    It is true that we move towards greater capacities of transcendent qualities BUT for most of us being reasonably human, acceptably flawed is a step in the right way.

    Genuinely spiritual people have a tendency to expose their humanity and hide their virtue. The Buddha ideal being an integration or unfoldment of our best being. Personally I am very aware of how unreasonable I can be. So it is always good to be reminded of a political solution ....

    In a sense, a balanced and reasonable, mature world is our spiritual/Buddhist goal ...

    Victorious
  • I do not favor any. So maybe I should stay quiet. But my reasons can be useful for some, or you can help me to see some important things I'm missing, so...

    I found out that favoring (generally) makes the mind more rigid.

    Even favoring the "right thing" (the thing that really looks right) seems to work in the same way.

    And even the slight increases of such rigidities every time I favor something - eventually add up. So generally by ignoring the danger at the beginning (as too small an issue to care) I end up too attached to some opinions, to see the full picture.

    So what I try to do when such "votings" arise - is just treating them gently as any other thought but not getting engaged, like in meditation.

    And I believe that's the good way to soothe the world (my "Buddhist" view) - more being with things as they are, less preferring how they should or could be - globalized or not.

    <3

    lobsterVictoriousperson
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @David I'm curious about what you said about borders and preference of living. What did you mean? Just for definition sake/addresses and so on? I live within walking distance of the Canadian border, in a wilderness area, so here, the border thing is just crazy to me. There is a vast 3 million acre wilderness full of woods and lakes that stretches across the border. It's so strange to me that you can cross a 'border' that is in the middle of a lake and suddenly be in another country with entirely different rules and laws and that in having done so you actually broke the law. It just makes no sense to me, lol. We have many lakes here that are cut in half by the border. To have such a vast wilderness split where you cannot enjoy all of it without being hampered by laws is just weird. I know it is in the same in many areas, of course. Just my immediate experience. It loses something when we define it within one border and another border. Nature knows no borders.

    Shoshin
  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:

    @Kerome said:

    @SpinyNorman said:
    Does it affect the supply of Neapolitan ice-cream? :p

    The local supply of ice cream is restored... the two Italian gelaterias in the area have re-opened for summer.

    I am worried there might be problems with Neapolitan supply, now that the UK is leaving the EU. Maybe if we give Gibraltar to Spain they will agree free movement of ice-cream? :p

    Perhaps giving Gibraltar to Italy might be more effective, since shipments could literally stop by the Rock? Although of course geopolitically more fraught. :awesome:

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    We no-a wanna big rock tenk yu verry mach. We iz alreddy a-havin' to cope wid de Island of Sicilia which-a is da full of criminels an' de Mafia peepol, so we have de hanz full, so tenk you verry mach, baht, ah - no.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited April 3

    So here it comes...

    CONFESSIONS of a MEGALOMANIAC BUDDHIST

    The reason I got caught up in this idea is because I defied my Theravada upbringing and started to explore How To Save The World. Yeah crazy I know but I have a BIG HEART as you all know... =). Well actually Federica told me to do it or else and she is T h e Moderator O.o ...so of I went into the big world to find the end of the rainbow and save the world.

    OUR HERO PONDERS THE PROBLEM

    And pretty soon it was clear that war and lack of resources, also called poverty, went hand in hand.
    The issue was primarily a question of resource division. If everyone had what they required then there would be no cause for war. Simple right?

    And obviously there were a multitude of self proclaimed remedies for this. Communism, Capitalism, Socialism and every possible synthesis and antithesis of these. Everyone of which were at war with one another and every one, it seemed, had failed at this minuscule task!

    FREE MONEY HALLELUJAH!

    But then a very simple solution caught my eye. A model that had been tested in several parts of the world and which consisted of ...well...giving people money...for free! GASP!

    There are two main ways of doing this. Citizens Pay and Helicopter Money.

    The First Called "Citizens Pay" in Swedish, has been tested in limited populations. Canada had been at it, Iran and India, Holland and now Finland is testing it. (and some other nations I do not remember). It consist of giving citizens a monthly pay which does not require anything in return from the population.

    And Helicopter Money (again in Swedish) is a one time dispersion of sum of money to all citizens mainly to combat deflation or at least lack of enough inflation.

    As you can see both these models would only work in countries with strong economies where inflation is welcome or even required. Also it could work in countries where automation had exempted a large part of the work force.

    The last is in itself a problem since it cuts employment and tax revenue to The State.
    Bill Windows himself has of late suggested a solution to this by having the automatons pay taxes in the future. Well not the actual robots but their owners. Unless of course the Cyberdyne system prevail and Terminates all the humans in the future. (Who knows how these things could turn out? I say keep all possibilities open. That would solve both poverty and war...just sayin...).

    RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY ON VENUS?

    BUT. Then I looked into the Venus Project. A resource based economy that requires the population to make a contribution.

    That is, everybody gets what they need from the state, but unlike CP or HM, people are required to help out. To do their part in society.

    NO no no stop right there! Get that silly thought out of your head! This is NOT Communism! It is a Resource Based economy...

    But I agree there is some similarity. How do you for instance measure if people have done their part? If they have done enough to keep the economy going?

    Still I felt this is very close to THE SOLUTION! Yes THE solution! Not IT no but VERY close!

    THE FINAL SOLUTION EPIPHINATES ITSELF. (knowleadge is resonable ignorance)

    Well long story short. What if The State monopolized the fractional reserve system of lending? Would that not solve everything?

    All people currently loaning money from private banks could do the same from The State and the Quadrillions of revenues from these loans would benefit The State, i.e. us, instead of private moneylenders. (that is I would say is reasonable ill will)

    And the State could provide its Citizens with the resources everybody requires at a reasonable interest rate, (reasonable greed, no?).

    And also to boon as always when the private banking sector fails normally we the people have to bail them out. This way, if the economy fails we get to bail ourselves out...
    Nice no?

    The End.

    What ya think?

    TO BE DONE.

    Convince every Country in the world to simultaneously monopolize the fractional reserve lending system.

    Who wants to have a go at this one? @lobster?

    lobsterHozan
  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran

    I'd recommend this interview with Yuval Noah Harari on Globalism vs Nationalism.

    Victoriouslobster
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @person Thanks! Really great. Just saw the 8 first minutes and so far I agree to the letter!

    Will watch the whole thing when I get an hour free.

  • DavidDavid some guy The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran
    edited April 3

    @karasti said:
    @David I'm curious about what you said about borders and preference of living. What did you mean? Just for definition sake/addresses and so on?

    I'm trying to think of how to explain what I mean. If I want to shoot off fireworks but it is against the safety standards of the territory I would go somewhere it is allowed. That's about as much use I can get out of the idea of borders.

    I live within walking distance of the Canadian border, in a wilderness area, so here, the border thing is just crazy to me. There is a vast 3 million acre wilderness full of woods and lakes that stretches across the border. It's so strange to me that you can cross a 'border' that is in the middle of a lake and suddenly be in another country with entirely different rules and laws and that in having done so you actually broke the law. It just makes no sense to me, lol.

    This is where I agree wholeheartedly. It's just nuts. However we do need some boundaries or else anyone could just waltz into your home. However, borders between countries where you have to have proper paperwork? That's just weird to me. I live in between lakes Erie and Ontario.

    We have many lakes here that are cut in half by the border. To have such a vast wilderness split where you cannot enjoy all of it without being hampered by laws is just weird. I know it is in the same in many areas, of course. Just my immediate experience. It loses something when we define it within one border and another border. Nature knows no borders.

    Yeah, lol. Here you are for sure preaching to the choir. All borders are convention.

    Victoriouskarasti
  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran

    @Victorious said:
    @person Thanks! Really great. Just saw the 8 first minutes and so far I agree to the letter!

    Will watch the whole thing when I get an hour free.

    Buddhist side note on Yuval. He meditates in the Theravada style 2 hours a day and takes a 1-2 month retreat every year. You can hear some of his Buddhistness in some of his ideas.

    lobsterVictorious
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @Victorious this doesn't really address your question, but I am a huge fan of trading skillsets. They can be valued just like money, except it's more tit for tat rather than being forced to go without something you need because you don't have much money because your skillset isn't as monetarily valued by society. There is a webpage called Simbii that connects people for this kind of thing. I'd love to see it grow. If we didn't rely on the money-controlling people for everything, we'd put them out of power.

    Victorious
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited April 4

    What @Victorious is describing is coming. The political class is not able to facilitate this change. The ideals of rampant consumerism or rampant generosity/altruism?

    Do we accumulate or share? When do we start?

    You know who is in charge? We all are. Always has been the plan ...

    VictoriousHozan
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @karasti said:
    @Victorious this doesn't really address your question, but I am a huge fan of trading skillsets. They can be valued just like money, except it's more tit for tat rather than being forced to go without something you need because you don't have much money because your skillset isn't as monetarily valued by society. There is a webpage called Simbii that connects people for this kind of thing. I'd love to see it grow. If we didn't rely on the money-controlling people for everything, we'd put them out of power.

    Just joined. I think I am going to get some Mandarin lessons! :).

    karasti
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @lobster said:
    What @Victorious is describing is coming. The political class is not able to facilitate this change. The ideals of rampant consumerism or rampant generosity/altruism?

    Olympus will fall no doubt. Just a matter of time and mental maturity.

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