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Emptiness and Wholeness

KeromeKerome Love, love is mysteryThe Continent Veteran

I'm sure you all know the story of Venerable Nagasena and King Milinda, where Nagasena explains the emptiness of essential nature of the Kings chariot. He shows that by taking away a wheel, then another wheel, then an axle, you eventually end up with a pile of parts and no chariot, and of no part could you say that it contained the essential nature of the chariot. Hence there is no essential nature, things are empty in and of themselves of an essential nature.

However... I have a question. As soon as you take away the first major part, the chariot ceases to function as a chariot. It becomes an incomplete chariot, it's chariot-ness is already broken. On a conceptual level, the chariot-nature is taken away by removing that first piece. Yes you end up with a world where collections of things define the complete-ness and nature of other things, but that seems to be the world as we know it.

I see inter-being and I see fullness, but not emptiness...

Comments

  • gracklegrackle Veteran

    The dialog between the Ven Nagasena and King Malinda had nothing to do with the emptiness of the chariot. It had everything to do with demonstrating that the Kings idea of self was based on a false understanding of the Nama-Rupa complex.

    KeromeShoshinlobsternirvana7stotram
  • Let's talk about you. Leave the drama behind. What state are in is what lifts you to a different dimension. You see a tiger in not worry how good tiger it is as long as it's stomach is full. All the dramas in life is an rxaple not to neglect it. But what you want is what is important. Cuz future is over altogether. All is left behind is your life. You can think what you want. But how is it going to take you to a different dimension. Let's say a king lived his life to his full potential and then what is left behind. Your job and your family and your life. No matter what story you hear will remain as a story as long as you are transformed. :) shiva Jesus Mohammad Buddha their life is an example for a certain dimension. After that you are on your own. When you on your own. Ask questions and questions. It will and should give you are absolute. What is absolute. I can tell you stories but to get there you need effort. Are you willing to strive for it or not. What is life. Why you need storytelling. Think. And think until you need a higher dimension. Am I saying your dimension is infierior and other deminsikns are superior. No. It's what you want. Every single life on this planet including an ant

  • For instance. If I want I can control the entire weather and humans around me to raise our Buddhist view. But I won't. And so are the yogis. They just sit and watch. Why ? Everyone has their own ego. The amount of ego ppl have thinking they are the best in this world is a total ignorance. If I want I can distort them. But can I. These are things as been put in place according to everyone's karma. Karma is not what come around and that goes around. Karma is simply action. Yogis know if we touch others karma it will come back to us. But in such inevitable time we rise and destroy and make things accordance to dharma. But even if we do how is your individual life gonna change. Practise makes master. So yeah just be humble and ask. Ask. Ask. Through mediation. GOUTHAM the Buddha is not a man or a god. He is someone who raised his perception beyond god. For him god is a simple happening. We learn that. Take it in. Soak it in. And finally dissolve in that. Dissolving ones personality is not easy. It takes enormous effort. Are you ready to take that effort. For you to attain enlightenment is a question. Or you like to remain as such where you want heaven. Then you become a Hindu. So going beyond story and god is going beyond gods. An eternal being without suffering. Or choosing the gods for heaven.

    I met a yogi. He was a man who only want to go to heaven. He devoted himself to shiva. Yes he attain all kinds of samadhi and enlightenment but his goal was to be in shivas lap. Yes as a fellow yogi. It's possible if he can get away from the dogs/ lions and go to heaven without rebirth for next severely thousands of years. Yes it's possible. but you have to come back here at any one point. Which Buddha din not like the concept. So he became nirvikalpa. Shedding the body and becoming eternal. He is not the only Buddha. There have been many. But my point is. What do you really want ?

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 29

    A Novel.
    A Question.
    A Novel question.

    THIS is good discussion.

  • Fedrica it all about to raise our perception. The pain is ignorance. Not knowing it. When we know it. We will be like. Oh ok wow I din know that mate. But it's what we are striving for. Expand your perception

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @Kerome said:
    I see inter-being and I see fullness, but not emptiness...

    Tee Hee.
    Let's take you as the chariot.
    Your nose falls off - Still Kerome-Chariot?
    Your ears fall off - Anybody not listening Kerome-chariot?
    Two arms and a leg fall off - still you?
    Eyes close or fall off - ay caramba - still exist? Of course. Kerome is a Chariot ...
    The parts are empty of being.

    Don't think of a chariot?

    Think Emptiness is form and the chariot is Empty.
    https://www.thoughtco.com/the-heart-sutra-450023

  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    @Kerome said:> I see inter-being and I see fullness, but not emptiness...

    The point is that everything we experience arises and ceases in dependence on transient conditions, so attaching, clinging and grasping are bound to cause suffering. It's not so much a philosophical statement as something to be observed in your own experience.

    lobsterHozanKerome
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    ...As the ol' Buddhist funeral ( for the self) goes...

    "Transient alas; are all component things
    Subject are they to birth and then decay
    Having gained birth; to death the life flux swings
    Bliss truley dawns when unrest dies away!"

  • Lee82Lee82 Veteran

    I listened to an interesting Podcast this week, Secular Buddhism with Noah Rasheta. It talked about the illusion of self and used an example of a car. Which part of it is a car? If you take away the wheels it the seats or the engine is it still a car? None of those individual parts on its own is a car and the car is still a car without them. It's the collective that is a car, and so it is with the self.

    If you take away your arms and legs it's still you. So what is the self? Is it your brain? Then what part, if you wake up tomorrow without your memories are you still you? If you get a disease that affects your brains function are you still you? Of course you are.

    It was a very interesting discussion and went into much more detail, more than I am able to express or even remember all of it. Well worth a listen and I need to listen again and reflect on it.

    lobster
  • paulysopaulyso usa Veteran

    hmm...the illusion of self.it's a nice raft to juggle the dynamics of life.knowing it's function helps us go with dharma.that other shore is perhawe foget self and be.

  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran
    edited April 30

    @Kerome said:
    I see inter-being and I see fullness, but not emptiness...

    I agree with inter-being. To me what is empty is the idea of a chariot that we place on that collection of parts. I imagine it like a floating image, a cartoon bubble, above the object. That image is the thing that is empty, all there is is the collection but our minds label it and impart the collection with a solidness that the floating mental image doesn't have.

    ...and there are collections all the way down.

    Kerome
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    Yes person, I agree, there are collections all the way down. But take away an essential part and it won't function like an chariot anymore, its only part of an chariot. So the idea of the thing has a form of completeness or wholeness, it may not be solid but it has a kind of reality. Although of course it is a construct of the mind and has no independent existence.

  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    edited April 30

    @Kerome said:
    Yes person, I agree, there are collections all the way down. But take away an essential part and it won't function like an chariot anymore, its only part of an chariot. So the idea of the thing has a form of completeness or wholeness, it may not be solid but it has a kind of reality. Although of course it is a construct of the mind and has no independent existence.

    The problem arises when the wheels fall off your favourite chariot. :p

    I really don't think this is a philosophical question, it is more about noticing, aka being mindful.

    personShoshin
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