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MANCHESTER

dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJUSydney, Australia Veteran
edited May 23 in General Banter

Namaste sangha,

I hope our British members are safe after tonight's terrorist attack at Manchester arena. I'm absolutely devastated that younng people, children and disabled fans were so badly wounded and killed (BBC World News are putting it at 19 dead and over 50 injured).

I will dedicate all my practise today to the wellbeing and comfort of all affected ☹☹

yagrlobsterWalkernamarupapegembaraShoshinHozansilverDhammaDragonLionduck
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Comments

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    So sad. It always seems especially so when targets are young people specifically. Sending metta to all. I hope so many of the missing are located and reunited with their families.

    dhammachick
  • yagryagr Veteran

    Wish I could wish for the welfare of all equally, but my thoughts were on NB members first. Hope all are safe.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @dhammachick said:
    I will dedicate all my practise today to the wellbeing and comfort of all affected ☹☹

    Ditto.
    Our practice to spread peace and well being so needed.
    OM MANI PEME HUM HRIH

    namarupaBunkssilverDhammaDragon
  • namarupanamarupa Veteran

    Prayers to the victims, friends, and families.

    Metta

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited May 23

    (2) “One full of hate, overcome by hatred …

    (3) “One who is deluded, overcome by delusion, with mind obsessed by it, intends for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he experiences mental suffering and dejection.

    But when delusion is abandoned, he does not intend for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he does not experience mental suffering and dejection.

    https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.54

  • Lee82Lee82 Veteran

    Far too close to home, I went past there only yesterday, devastated for all those affected :-(

  • HozanHozan Veteran

    Practise today dedicated to the people of Manchester and the victims of this barbaric act. Metta to them and their families. Manchester is such a welcoming city and I have felt the warmth of the people when I have travelled there. May they be strong and stand together as a community. These terrorists need to know there is no place in this world for these unspeakable atrocities.

    dhammachickDhammaDragon
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I woke up this tragedy, and feel utterly devastated and crestfallen. So sad.... Absolutely indescribable.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    :(

  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    So sad, such a waste. It brought back memories of the London 7/7 bombings in 2005, I missed one of the tube bombs by 24 hours.

  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran

    For me, I'm finding myself deeply affected emotionally. I think it's because my daughter is 15 and these kids are around her age and younger. I'm absolutely heartbroken :heartbreak:

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    Many terrorists act from a place of revenge against the US and its allies because of atrocities we committed against them. Hate begets hate and the circle goes on. We retaliate against their violence, they respond with violence. They need better options to stop the cycle.

    lobster
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I'm really not entirely certain what they're trying to achieve here, for any specific 'cause' they might harbour support for; I mean, the immediate effect is chaos, injury, death and total mayhem, destruction and disruption. That's acheved in any tragic situation where a disaster meets people.
    But after that - what is it they actually want to happen? What is their objective? What is the point?
    It alienates every single decent human being, whatever their background, and does nothing to promote any sympathy, empathy or understanding....Frankly it's perplexing.
    tTragic, stupid, mindless, and perplexing.

    KeromeHozandhammachicklobster
  • WalkerWalker Veteran

    Such sad news. My thoughts are with the people of Manchester.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @federica I don't think the average suicide bomber/attacker thinks that far. i think for them, their primary purpose is a sense of revenge, at least in their mind. The people who "inspire" them however seem to have a goal of turning the whole world into them so they can control everything. They wouldn't be able to do much of anything without all the people willing to join them though, and i think that is where we need to nip it in the bud. People who mostly just want to take care of their families and are desperate. The same type of poverty (in all ways, not just financial but people who especially have emotional poverty going on) is what is responsible for people joining street gangs. They want someone to have their back. They want loyalty at any cost. They want to belong and to feel like someone cares or looks out for them. That is the basis that ISIS recruits people based on. Emotion that America and its friends are responsible for their suffering in life and a promise to pay them and look out for them and get revenge on their behalf. For us to stop recruiting we would need to find a way to provide another avenue for these every day people to get the support and care they need so they aren't driven by desperation and anger to listen to crazy people.

    Keromesilverlobster
  • Will_BakerWill_Baker Vermont Veteran

    May my sisters and brothers in the UK be well...

  • HozanHozan Veteran

    Any person who can detonate a bomb in the presence of innocent people including children has lost so much of a connection with reality and core decency that mentally they are lost, reached a point beyond the reaches of human compassion and decency. Nothing can excuse this kind of behaviour. No " cause", no "reason" and "no revenge". I feel deeply affected by this in my core. I have been in Manchester a few times. I have felt the warmth of the people and the welcome of the people. Its horrible. Manchester feels like a second home city to me. This is absolutely awful.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    I do understand how you feel, @Hozan. But within Buddhism, no one is beyond reach. It is easy to assume things of people who live under desperation and conditions we cannot imagine. They are easily swayed by many factors that we cannot comprehend. That does not and should not lessen our compassion for the victims and the impact such events have on humanity as a whole. Providing potential reasons why things happen has nothing to do with excusing it. We absolutely CANNOT come to ways to fix this problem without looking at the root cause. That is the only way.

    Hozanlobster
  • Todd0248Todd0248 Australia New

    That goes to show you like that all belief systems are not the same and in fact some are delusional. Political correctness needs to be discarded

  • Will_BakerWill_Baker Vermont Veteran

    @Hozan said:
    Any person who can detonate a bomb in the presence of innocent people including children has lost so much of a connection with reality and core decency that mentally they are lost, reached a point beyond the reaches of human compassion and decency. Nothing can excuse this kind of behaviour. No " cause", no "reason" and "no revenge". I feel deeply affected by this in my core. I have been in Manchester a few times. I have felt the warmth of the people and the welcome of the people. Its horrible. Manchester feels like a second home city to me. This is absolutely awful.

    -I would respectfully disagree, please know, however, I am not excusing the behavior of the murderer(s)...

  • Will_BakerWill_Baker Vermont Veteran

    @Todd0248 said:
    That goes to show you like that all belief systems are not the same and in fact some are delusional. Political correctness needs to be discarded

    -I may be mistaken, but if you are conflating extending compassion with the PC movement, I would argue they are not the same thing...

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    PC has it's place, but while our balance was off the wrong directions years ago, now it has swung too far the other way. It will find a middle way eventually. To discard it entirely would mean we go back to name-calling and other such things that were not remotely helpful in solving problems between groups. Political correctness wouldn't need a label if people could just be decent, but they can't, so we need training and rules to spell it out at this point, sadly.

    person
  • HozanHozan Veteran

    @karasti said:
    I do understand how you feel, @Hozan. But within Buddhism, no one is beyond reach. It is easy to assume things of people who live under desperation and conditions we cannot imagine. They are easily swayed by many factors that we cannot comprehend. That does not and should not lessen our compassion for the victims and the impact such events have on humanity as a whole. Providing potential reasons why things happen has nothing to do with excusing it. We absolutely CANNOT come to ways to fix this problem without looking at the root cause. That is the only way.

    I agree that tackling the root cause is the only way to try to solve the problem. I didnt express myself well. What I mean is that at the time of tbid bombing human compassion has failed to reach this terrorist and they have arrived at a state of no compassion themselves. I agree that to solve this is to look at root cause and stop people from getting to this point. My biggest worry is that many of these terrorists have had good childhoods, havent wanted for anything and become disaffected with life and easily brainwashed

    dhammachickkarasti
  • HozanHozan Veteran

    @Will_Baker said:

    @Hozan said:
    Any person who can detonate a bomb in the presence of innocent people including children has lost so much of a connection with reality and core decency that mentally they are lost, reached a point beyond the reaches of human compassion and decency. Nothing can excuse this kind of behaviour. No " cause", no "reason" and "no revenge". I feel deeply affected by this in my core. I have been in Manchester a few times. I have felt the warmth of the people and the welcome of the people. Its horrible. Manchester feels like a second home city to me. This is absolutely awful.

    -I would respectfully disagree, please know, however, I am not excusing the behavior of the murderer(s)...

    When I say reached a point beyond human compassion what I mean is that at the time they detonate the bomb they have arrived at a point in their lives where human compassion has failed to reach them sufficiently to stop them from their actions and as a result they are at a total disconnect with their compassion towards others. Only that disconnect at that point in time could lead the person to detonate the bomb knowing the outcome. Of course compassion plays a huge role in identifying the root cause and stop these people from reaching such a point in their lives where they believe detonating a bomb in a crowded area is the only way out.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    It seems that a lot of them are immigrants/refugees and while they might appear to have a decent life now, what they fled likely caused major mental and emotional dysfunction. A large portion of those people probably suffer PTSD among other problems. Not all of them fall under that category, of course, but it seems to be fairly common. People of all sorts though are easily swayed but a lot of that has to do with a lack of value they feel towards themselves and others. It is simply not a characteristic of a person who has their basic needs well met to be so uncaring that they kill children and disabled people at a teenage concert. There is much more going on there than just someone who was disaffected with life, it seems.

  • HozanHozan Veteran

    @karasti said:
    It seems that a lot of them are immigrants/refugees and while they might appear to have a decent life now, what they fled likely caused major mental and emotional dysfunction. A large portion of those people probably suffer PTSD among other problems. Not all of them fall under that category, of course, but it seems to be fairly common. People of all sorts though are easily swayed but a lot of that has to do with a lack of value they feel towards themselves and others. It is simply not a characteristic of a person who has their basic needs well met to be so uncaring that they kill children and disabled people at a teenage concert. There is much more going on there than just someone who was disaffected with life, it seems.

    It is more than being disaffected with life of course. Its frightening the power of the brainwashing that goes into recruiting terrorists. I watched a documentary about it last year. Men and women of different ages and levels of education ( right up to phD level) were radicalised by " charismatic" leaders. This is a big factor also. They are provided with a path, a goal, a purpose...albeit a twisted and gruesome one. Kids are convinced to wear suicide vests.

    dhammachick
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    It is the same mentality of cults. The education level of people who were conned by Jim Jones was also high. They were convinced to poison their own children because of what he taught. There were lawyers, doctors, teachers...and largely a population of black women. It is not only terrorists. People of all sorts are at risk for the same behaviors. That path, goal and purpose is exactly part of what we need to figure out how to circumvent. Aimless people who are seeking become victims easily. One thing worth considering is the more recent science that is showing that tragedies carry through our DNA. People who have been living in tragic circumstances that other generations of their family have also lived through, that has to have a major impact. The Middle East has been an area of conflict for a very long time, mostly religious based. But when you start talking generations of people living in conflict that kind of compounding mental and emotional pain has to be important I'd think.
    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/daily_videos/can-trauma-be-passed-to-next-generation-through-dna/

    Hozan
  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem switzerland Veteran

    All I can say is... <3

    Hozandhammachick
  • Lee82Lee82 Veteran

    UK threat raised to critical meaning further attacks are imminent and armed military personnel will be at all major events e.g. sports events and concerts.

    sigh

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @Lee82 said:
    UK threat raised to critical meaning further attacks are imminent and armed military personnel will be at all major events e.g. sports events and concerts.

    sigh

    I recently took my four year old son to a footy game at the MCG.

    They have put up these temporary plastic bollard type things to stop a car or truck being able to ram pedestrians outside the ground.

    My son asked me why they were there?

    What do you say to a four year old......

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    "To make sure a car can't bump you by accident...."

    dhammachick
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @Bunks ks wow he's 4 already! Time flies. My son was 4 when 9/11 happened. Sometimes I told the truth in the most basic, undramatic way I could. Other times I fibbed because I couldn't think fast enough. At 4, he'd probably accept "they are just there to keep people safe" or something similar. That's probably what I'd have said. I noticed that these big events just aren't the same anymore. Growing up, I went to tons of concerts. It was just a carefree awesome time. Last spring I went to Garth Brooks which was the first really big concert I've been to in several years and the element of carefree fun is lacking now. There is always a sense of "am I safe here?" that was never there before. It is the same in airports and airplanes. We are going to HI next week and while I love to fly, i admit I am nervous about the whole thing. So many incidents lately. Gotta keep living, but how long until events start to suffer because enough people get tired of wondering if they are safe?

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    "Dukkha" .... in times like this, one's practice is essential....

    "Transient alas are all component things-
    Subject are they to birth and then decay-
    Having gained birth; to death the life flux swings-
    Bliss truly dawns when unrest dies away"

    May 'all' beings be well and free from Dukkha <3

    BunksDhammaDragon
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Been watching the response of the Mancunians. B)

    Impressive. Supporting each other. Vigil. Reminds us that we can as a community and as individuals offer something positive in the face of determined hatred. <3

    dhammachick
  • techietechie India Veteran

    @federica said:
    I'm really not entirely certain what they're trying to achieve here, for any specific 'cause' they might harbour support for; I mean, the immediate effect is chaos, injury, death and total mayhem, destruction and disruption. That's acheved in any tragic situation where a disaster meets people.
    But after that - what is it they actually want to happen? What is their objective? What is the point?
    It alienates every single decent human being, whatever their background, and does nothing to promote any sympathy, empathy or understanding....Frankly it's perplexing.
    tTragic, stupid, mindless, and perplexing.

    All the more reason to believe most 'terror' attacks are essentially false flag operations - just to turn the public more xenophobic.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    Oh geez. How does tin foil hat conspiracy theory from youtube make more sense than some people just have such serious issues that they carry out such acts? These types of things have been happening to some degree through much of humanity. Long before xenophobia or any other such things were even identifiable.

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited May 24

    Go after the purveyors of hate.

    Words from a wise statesman.

    ...militant Islam feeds upon the insecurities and alienation that globalisation generates among the less successful.

    So Lee’s answer to the question is simple and categorical. “Only Muslims can win this struggle,” he said. By that he means, only modernist Muslims could triumph over their radical antagonists and it is the job of the international community to support and encourage the moderate Muslim to fight back against the extremists.

    “I also pointed out that our Muslim leaders are rational and that the ultimate solution to extremist terrorism was to give moderate Muslims the courage to stand up and speak out against radicals who have hijacked Islam to recruit volunteers for their violent ends,” he said.

    In the end, Lee also suggested that a military solution was not enough on its own. “You must use force. But force will only deal with the tip of the problem. In killing the terrorists, you will only kill the worker bees. The queen bees are the preachers, who teach a deviant form of Islam in schools and Islamic centres, who capture and twist the minds of the young.”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/business-spectator/lee-kuan-yew-and-how-to-fight-islamic-terrorism/news-story/737c93eaaf75e8526e65fea2bc5f02e5

    lobster
  • LionduckLionduck Veteran

    Extremism knows no religion.
    This tragedy is a tragedy of ignorance. Extremist count on the ignorance of those they draw into their snares. They degrade life and falsely glorify destruction and even murder in the name of false causes.
    We must all pray for and work towards the end of bigotry, of prejudice, of the ignorance of the value, of the sacredness of life, each and every life.

    My prayers go out to the people of Manchester. My prayers for the victims and their families, for all who were affected by this tragedy.

    lobster
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @karasti said:
    @Bunks ks wow he's 4 already! Time flies. My son was 4 when 9/11 happened. Sometimes I told the truth in the most basic, undramatic way I could. Other times I fibbed because I couldn't think fast enough. At 4, he'd probably accept "they are just there to keep people safe" or something similar. That's probably what I'd have said. I noticed that these big events just aren't the same anymore. Growing up, I went to tons of concerts. It was just a carefree awesome time. Last spring I went to Garth Brooks which was the first really big concert I've been to in several years and the element of carefree fun is lacking now. There is always a sense of "am I safe here?" that was never there before. It is the same in airports and airplanes. We are going to HI next week and while I love to fly, i admit I am nervous about the whole thing. So many incidents lately. Gotta keep living, but how long until events start to suffer because enough people get tired of wondering if they are safe?

    I just said it was to make sure people walked in the right area. No need for any more detail at this stage I reckon.

    federicakarasti
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 24

    @pegembara said:
    Go after the purveyors of hate.

    Words from a wise statesman.

    ...militant Islam feeds upon the insecurities and alienation that globalisation generates among the less successful.

    So Lee’s answer to the question is simple and categorical. “Only Muslims can win this struggle,” he said. By that he means, only modernist Muslims could triumph over their radical antagonists and it is the job of the international community to support and encourage the moderate Muslim to fight back against the extremists.

    “I also pointed out that our Muslim leaders are rational and that the ultimate solution to extremist terrorism was to give moderate Muslims the courage to stand up and speak out against radicals who have hijacked Islam to recruit volunteers for their violent ends,” he said.

    In the end, Lee also suggested that a military solution was not enough on its own. “You must use force. But force will only deal with the tip of the problem. In killing the terrorists, you will only kill the worker bees. The queen bees are the preachers, who teach a deviant form of Islam in schools and Islamic centres, who capture and twist the minds of the young.”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/business-spectator/lee-kuan-yew-and-how-to-fight-islamic-terrorism/news-story/737c93eaaf75e8526e65fea2bc5f02e5

    Moderator Note:

    Opposing Political parties in the UK united with one another in their decision to suspend campaigning and refrain from scoring any possible political points, and airing any political views, on the back of this tragedy.
    I would respectfully suggest we do the same.

    BunksdhammachickHozan
  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @techie said:

    @federica said:
    I'm really not entirely certain what they're trying to achieve here, for any specific 'cause' they might harbour support for; I mean, the immediate effect is chaos, injury, death and total mayhem, destruction and disruption. That's acheved in any tragic situation where a disaster meets people.
    But after that - what is it they actually want to happen? What is their objective? What is the point?
    It alienates every single decent human being, whatever their background, and does nothing to promote any sympathy, empathy or understanding....Frankly it's perplexing.
    tTragic, stupid, mindless, and perplexing.

    All the more reason to believe most 'terror' attacks are essentially false flag operations - just to turn the public more xenophobic.

    Respectfully, please don't turn a thread I started with genuine love and concern into a conspiracy thread - it's a dick move :-1:

    BunksHozankarasti
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    @Lee82 said:
    UK threat raised to critical meaning further attacks are imminent and armed military personnel will be at all major events e.g. sports events and concerts.

    sigh

    This is how they responded in France, but it didn't prevent subsequent attacks.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @dhammachick said:

    @techie said:

    @federica said:
    I'm really not entirely certain what they're trying to achieve here, for any specific 'cause' they might harbour support for; I mean, the immediate effect is chaos, injury, death and total mayhem, destruction and disruption. That's acheved in any tragic situation where a disaster meets people.
    But after that - what is it they actually want to happen? What is their objective? What is the point?
    It alienates every single decent human being, whatever their background, and does nothing to promote any sympathy, empathy or understanding....Frankly it's perplexing.
    tTragic, stupid, mindless, and perplexing.

    All the more reason to believe most 'terror' attacks are essentially false flag operations - just to turn the public more xenophobic.

    Respectfully, please don't turn a thread I started with genuine love and concern into a conspiracy thread - it's a dick move :-1:

    'nuff said.

    I would politely invite those who wish to turn this into a political, conspiratorial rant, to find another bolthole.
    Thanks.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    A young girl I work with came in to the office this morning sporting a black eye.

    She stood in front of a young Muslim girl who was being verbally assaulted by an older woman for what happened in Manchester, and copped a punch in the face for her troubles!

    It's a sad world we live in.

    lobsterHozan
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Dear Friends,

    Spread peace, spread good will. 💗❤️ <3 That is our response to disturbed or even worse actions.

    Will always be The Plan.

    BunksHozan
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    @lobster said:
    Dear Friends,

    Spread peace, spread good will. 💗❤️ <3 That is our response to disturbed or even worse actions.

    Will always be The Plan.

    Right on @lobster!

    Hozan
  • gracklegrackle Veteran

    Today in dreams I hold the globe close to my heart. I hear the fears and dry the tears of all who hurt in whatever way until that tiny moment of calm is born again in hearts around the world.

    lobsterBunks
  • HozanHozan Veteran

    Bunksdhammachick
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