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How do you know?

@seeker242 said:
I was sitting out in the woods one day. The wind blew and the trees moved back and fourth. Then a bird chirped!

@upekka said:

how did you know 'you were (I was) sitting'?

@federica said:
How do you know you are asking?

thank you @federica, this is a very intelligent question (at least i consider so)

  1. If a Liberated One sees your post, 'seeing is just seen' for him/her and there would be no reaction, action would be 'Noble Scilence'
  2. if a Noble but not fully liberated one sees your post and mindful, then his/her reaction and action would be the same
  3. if a Noble but not fully liberated one sees your post but not mindful then there is refined action
  4. if a worldling sees your post there is no mindfulness he/she react and it may or may not be refined action

i am not in category 1 or 2 deifinetely and i might be in category 3 or 4

since I am full of ignorance, craving and conceit, but try to practice Dhamma that i have learnt, i try to test myself by analysing my reaction and my action to your post

following is my analysis:
I
1. see 'seeker 242's post'
2. a perception arise within
a) 'there is a valuable Dhamma point need to be discussed ' is the perception
b) there is no mindfulness to see that a pereception arisen from within and a perception has no inherant quality
3. react to that perception
4. ask (speak) the question (in this case write (act) the question)

** i didn't know i was asking the question at the moment i was asking**

Insight meditation (mindfulness meditation) reveals 'a perception is just a word/words arise from within' and we react (act or speak) accordingly

it is a life long practice to be mindful with the understanding one get through Insight meditation

«1

Comments

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator
    edited June 24

    You need to get out more.

    @upekka , you over-think things. There is no need.
    You just need to simplify and let go of all this mental gymnastics.
    Still your mind.
    Don't keep questioning.
    Just Empty, and Leave it be.

    it is a life long practice to be mindful with the understanding one get through Insight meditation

    The problem seems to be that you think you have time.
    Don't "waste" your life trying to get to something deep, profound and meaningful.
    Because what you seek is already here.

    What is the point of all this probing, questioning, stripping everything back to its bare, skeletal component? You ask and ask and ask convoluted questions.... and in the meantime we think of a friend who is not with us any more.
    He never asked such questions but it seems to me he was more satisfied with his lot in life, and calm about his progress than you are.

    This continued apparent agitation you have, this constant mental 'torment'... With all this questioning, you fail to see the simplicity of merely sitting and stilling all this tangled mess of thinking.

    Shush.

  • LionduckLionduck Veteran

    Sometimes you know.
    Sometimes you remain ignorant.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @federica said:
    You need to get out more.

    @upekka , you over-think things. There is no need.
    You just need to simplify and let go of all this mental gymnastics.
    Still your mind.
    Don't keep questioning.
    Just Empty, and Leave it be.

    it is a life long practice to be mindful with the understanding one get through Insight meditation

    The problem seems to be that you think you have time.
    Don't "waste" your life trying to get to something deep, profound and meaningful.
    Because what you seek is already here.

    What is the point of all this probing, questioning, stripping everything back to its bare, skeletal component? You ask and ask and ask convoluted questions.... and in the meantime we think of a friend who is not with us any more.
    He never asked such questions but it seems to me he was more satisfied with his lot in life, and calm about his progress than you are.

    This continued apparent agitation you have, this constant mental 'torment'... With all this questioning, you fail to see the simplicity of merely sitting and stilling all this tangled mess of thinking.

    Shush.

    I agree with this. I have often heard Thais say, "You tink too mutt" (sorry, that's how it sounds). And while some topics need some deep thought, other times we all sometimes have a tendency to spin our wheels over-thinking something that may not be that important. It sometimes comes down to would I better spend my time thinking in depth about this, or would I better spend my time _________________?

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem switzerland Veteran

    I recommend you walking meditation, @upekka.

    Nothing wrong with using our often underused reflective mind, but there are limits to it.

    It's not good being so much in the head.

    You may come to the same conclusions by being out there with all your senses on, touching the flowers as you walk by, and knee-deep in present moment awareness.

    Eating chocolate, sipping green tea, making love are great too <3

    karastiHozan
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited June 26

    @federica said:
    You need to get out more.

    Still your mind.

    Just Empty, and Leave it be.
    what you seek is already here.

    Thanks

    @DhammaDragon said:
    I recommend you walking meditation, @upekka.

    Thanks

  • DavidDavid some guy The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran

    Getting to the core of the question, why does it matter?

    Hozan
  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @David said:
    Getting to the core of the question, why does it matter?

    answer is in the thread 'Just An Instrument Of KARMA'

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator
    edited June 27

    Moderator note:

    @upekka could you quit leaping from thread to thread, and making members chase your comments? if someone asks you a question in this thread - answer it in this thread.
    This is your thread. You started it, so stop flitting all over the forum.
    If you choose to divert people to other threads - then provide a link.

    Thanks

    dhammachickkarastiDhammaDragon
  • Will_BakerWill_Baker Vermont Veteran

    How do you know?
    -Cogito Ergo Sum...

  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    @Will_Baker said:
    How do you know?
    -Cogito Ergo Sum...

    Perhaps more buddhistically it might be: I breathe therefore I am...

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited June 28

    @Kerome said:

    @Will_Baker said:
    How do you know?
    -Cogito Ergo Sum...

    Perhaps more buddhistically it might be: I breathe therefore I am...

    How do you know you are breathing? :)

  • KeromeKerome Did I fall in the forest? Europe Veteran

    The chest moves up and down,
    So the mind tells me,
    Who am I again?

    upekka
  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @Kerome said:
    The chest moves up and down,
    So the mind tells me,
    Who am I again?

    'the mind' tells 'me'
    then 'me' is not 'the mind'
    if 'I' have any relationship to 'me' then 'I' is not 'the mind'
    so by now there is a wisdom to know 'I' and 'me' are not 'the mind'
    and
    there is a knowing 'what the mind tells', namely 'the chest moves up and down'

    'you/we/I' know this much because 'you/we/I' tested 'your/our/my' own breath

    we can stop at this stage or test further the 'our own breath' to see/to know 'who/what is the "mind" and 'who/what is the 'I",

    1. we can stop at this stage and let go of all the rambling of this post
      or
    2. we can test our own breath further according to the rambling
      or
    3. think something over the rambling of this post

    if 'you/...' can stop at 1. you are already wise because you 'let go of the rambling of this post'
    Let go can happen in two ways
    A) you see rambling as rambling and know there is no use in involving in it
    B) you have subtle hate about the rambling or the person who rambles (craving/conceit/ignorance)

    if you do 2. you are doing Insight meditation to gain wisdom/trying to know 'who I am' without depending on outside

    if you do 3. 'you/...' create 'your/...' own suffering and 'you/...' are not wise enough to know what actually this rambling says

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited June 29

    "You" are thoughts, perception/memories and feeling. In other words "mind".

    Those who know cannot say,
    those who ask do not know.

    "But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

    "Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html

    upekka
  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @pegembara said:
    "You" are thoughts, perception/memories and feeling. In other words "mind".

    Those who know cannot say,
    those who ask do not know.

    "But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

    "Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html

    =)

  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @pegembara could you let us know suttas related to latent tendencies
    thanks in advance

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran

    "Bhikkhus, I declare [that there is] the extinction of āsavas in one who knows and sees,[3] and not in one who does not know and see. Bhikkhus! What is known and what is seen by one in whom I declare [that there is] the extinction of āsavas? The right perception of phenomena[4] and the wrong perception of phenomena. Bhikkhus! In one who has wrong perception of phenomena there arise āsavas that have not yet arisen, and there also is an increase of āsavas that have already arisen. Bhikkhus, in one who has right perception of phenomena there is no arising of āsavas that have not yet arisen, and āsavas that have already arisen are also removed.

    "Bhikkhus! There are āsavas that should be removed through vision,[5] āsavas that should be removed through restraint, āsavas that should be removed through proper use [of requisites], āsavas that should be removed through forbearance, āsavas that should be removed through avoidance, āsavas that should be removed through rejection and āsavas that should be removed through cultivation [of the Factors of Enlightenment].

    The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by dispelling, and those to be abandoned by developing.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

    Keromeupekka
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited June 29

    thanks for the information provided
    i thought that fermentations stem from latent tendencies

  • KannonKannon NAMU AMIDA BUTSU Ach-To Veteran

    @upekka how do you know...you are knowing?

    i just finished reading this lovely article (https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/escaping-the-observer-trap/) @federica showed me and it really impacted me. i believe i have been stuck in this rut for awhile. when i focus on my mindfulness, i tend to zone out in a place that i visualize is behind my eyes-just as the article said.

    i wondered what your thoughts specifically would be on the concept of a self, or material, in another plane beyond regular thought. the space between thoughts is how i like to view it. where is it located? does it exist? if not, what is there to find instead? is it part of reality because we experience it or not because we cannot locate it?

    i have learned throughout my life if i continually repeat "i am alive" to myself, i will eventually feel blissful, connected within and without my body... is this perhaps the experience people are talking of, or just another ego construction?

    DhammaDragon
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited June 29

    @eggsavior said:
    @upekka how do you know...you are knowing?

    by practicing Insight meditation

    i just finished reading this lovely article (https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/escaping-the-observer-trap/) @federica

    yes, it is nicely written

    i wondered what your thoughts specifically would be on the concept of a self, or material, in another plane beyond regular thought. the space between thoughts is how i like to view it. where is it located? does it exist? if not, what is there to find instead? is it part of reality because we experience it or not because we cannot locate it?

    i have learned throughout my life if i continually repeat "i am alive" to myself, i will eventually feel blissful, connected within and without my body... is this perhaps the experience people are talking of, or just another ego construction?

    if i write anything as answers to your question they become 'my' thoughts and when anyone reads them they become that persons' thought
    that doesn't help anyone to 'know' the 'knowing'
    instead i would write what i did (this part is a repition of another thread) and anyone is feel free to choose to do it accordingly or let go of everything appears in this post

    how to observe the observer
    before sit, train the mind that whatever hear is 'sound', whatever feel is 'feeling', whatever thought is 'thought', in breath is 'breath-in' and out breath is 'breath-out'
    to train the mind you can do this during the day for a day or two
    why do we do this?
    to help the mind to hold on to only five words and give freedom from millions of words that the mind is dealing with

    then sit with closed eyes and try to watch with the mind-eye
    whenever notice a sound do not go into the details like a dog barked, a hone honked, a door slammed etc. instead make a note of it as a 'sound'
    same goes with the feeling, thought, breath-in and breath-out

    if you do this simple task you are starting the Insight meditation (practicing mindfulness of the body)

    if you tell me your experience then we can go further from there

    remember understanding 'Dhamma' is a noble reaseach, not a book research

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem switzerland Veteran

    @upekka said:
    remember understanding 'Dhamma' is a noble reaseach, not a book research

    To me, understanding Dhamma is metabolizing Dhamma, digesting Dhamma, living out Dhamma, making Dhamma out of life.

    It means studying the suttas, understanding the suttas, integrating the suttas into your aggregates and spitting out the dead kernel of dead written word.

    It is not in the cold, rational split-hairing of words and concepts.
    But in living them up, in the passionate zest to go out and create yourself a better life.

    We are not Dhamma robots.
    We are Dhamma fire.

  • Will_BakerWill_Baker Vermont Veteran

    We are Dhamma fire...
    -Agreed, we are actualized dharma, we are stardust. We are everything and we are nothing...

  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited June 30

    @DhammaDragon said:

    @upekka said:
    remember understanding 'Dhamma' is a noble research, not a book research

    It means studying the suttas, understanding the suttas, integrating the suttas into your aggregates and spitting out the dead kernel of dead written word.

    exactly

    It is not in the cold, rational split-hairing of words and concepts.
    But in living them up, in the passionate zest to go out and create yourself a better life.

    agreed

    We are not Dhamma robots.

    there is a deluded mind (consciousness)

    We are Dhamma fire.

    not only fire but water, earth, and air also there

  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    if anyone interested in listening to Dhamma sermon given by an Arahantsin sinhala language just let me know

    you can listen to yogis' experiences discuss openly and the advice gives by the Arahant

    it is sad there is no english translation
    or
    my english is not good enough to translate them (grammer and spelling error)

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    How do you know ?

    "There was a young [wo]man who said though, it seems I know that I know, what I would like to see is the "I" that knows 'me', when I know that I know that I know!"

    Jeffrey
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited July 2

    @Shoshin said:

    How do you know?

    "There was a young [wo]man who said though, it seems I know that I know, what I would like to see is the "I" that knows 'me', when I know that I know that I know!"

    is this your own experience?
    someone else's experience that you have heard or listened or read?

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @upekka said:

    @Shoshin said:

    How do you know?

    "There was a young [wo]man who said though, it seems I know that I know, what I would like to see is the "I" that knows 'me', when I know that I know that I know!"

    is this your own experience?
    someone else's experience that you have heard or listened or read?

    Who wants to know?

    federicadhammachickupekkaDhammaDragon
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @upekka said:

    is this your own experience?

    On an ultimate level knowing knows the elusive nature of "I"

    someone else's experience that you have heard or listened or read?

    Relatively speaking the limerick is one by Alan Watts...

  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited July 3

    @Shoshin said:

    On an ultimate level knowing knows the elusive nature of "I"

    exactly
    we can make this is our own experience by 'limiting all the words (thought/perception/memories) that we know into five words, 'sound', 'feeling', 'thought', 'in-breath' and 'out-breath' before the sitting meditation, and during the meditation 'be aware of whatever word arises, make a not of the word arises' and remind the mind 'that is just a thought'
    by doing so, there is a time comes that 'knowing knows'

    this exercise (insight meditation) i did under the instruction of a meditation teacher who knows what he talks
    at the beginning i did believe in his instructions and tried to see whether there was any truth in it
    now not that i just believe in his instructions but 'i' know what he says is true

    befor walking meditation we can limit all the words into 'left', 'right', 'form', 'sound', 'smell', 'feeling', and 'thought'
    during the walking meditation 'be aware of whatever word arises, make a not of the word arises' and remind the mind 'that is just a thought'
    by doing so, there is a time comes that 'knowing knows'

    first 'we' will know that there is no 'i,we,us' invovlve in the arising of word
    then.......whatever it is , it is one's own experience , but not someone elses' experience that we have read/listened/read

    Buddha said/says 'don't even believe in my words', test yourself to see and know

  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    How did the Buddha know he'd reached Enlightenment under the tree? How did he know he'd reached an insight regarding the "Middle Way"?

    What kind of questions are these? I don't understand. "How did you know you were sitting?" What? O.o

  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @Dakini said:
    How did the Buddha know he'd reached Enlightenment under the tree? How did he know he'd reached an insight regarding the "Middle Way"?

    read Dhamma-cakka-pavattana sutta

    What kind of questions are these? I don't understand. "How did you know you were sitting?" What?

    how many books/articles of Buddha's Teaching we have read so far?
    how many Dhamma talks related to Buddha's Teaching we have listened so far?
    can we say we know 'what Buddha was/is trying to show us'?
    or
    are we still looking at the finger instead of the moon?

    with all the readings and listenings of Dhamma, do we know what is Enlightenment? Four Noble Truth? Noble Eightfold Path?

    what is the goal of studing Buddha's Teaching?
    if the goal is to lead a good social life, no need to ponder these questions

    since this is a Buddhist forum i thought asking few questions such as 'how did you know...?' would be helpful

    anyway we have the good old advice 'Let Go'

  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    for the members who can understand sinhala language:

    https://plus.google.com/+AranyavasiBiksuvak/posts/7MRYg4XGNhy

    if possible translate it into english and share with everyone

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited July 4

    Who or what is the driving force behind the questions @upekka ?

    What karmic sequence of events manifested these thoughts ?

    Is there a "Thinker" active behind these thoughts/questions ?

    And last but not least ...How do you know?

  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @Shoshin said:
    Who or what is the driving force behind the questions @upekka ?

    What karmic sequence of events manifested these thoughts ?

    Is there a "Thinker" active behind these thoughts/questions ?

    And last but not least ...How do you know?

    sandittiko, akaliko, ehipassiko

    =)

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @upekka said:

    @Shoshin said:
    Who or what is the driving force behind the questions @upekka ?

    What karmic sequence of events manifested these thoughts ?

    Is there a "Thinker" active behind these thoughts/questions ?

    And last but not least ...How do you know?

    sandittiko, akaliko, ehipassiko

    =)

    "Sabba dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" :)

    upekka
  • HozanHozan Veteran

    How do you know ? Nobody knows.

    upekkaShoshinDhammaDragon
  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @Shoshin said:

    _"Sabba dhamma nalam abhinivesaya"

    ditte ditta mattan

    @Hozan said:
    How do you know ? Nobody knows.

    Nobody = emptiness = knowing knows the emptiness

    Shoshin
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem switzerland Veteran

    @upekka said:
    for the members who can understand sinhala language:

    https://plus.google.com/+AranyavasiBiksuvak/posts/7MRYg4XGNhy

    if possible translate it into english and share with everyone

    I seriously doubt we have a member who can speaks sinhalese in our forum...

    Hozan
  • HozanHozan Veteran

    @DhammaDragon said:

    @upekka said:
    for the members who can understand sinhala language:

    https://plus.google.com/+AranyavasiBiksuvak/posts/7MRYg4XGNhy

    if possible translate it into english and share with everyone

    I seriously doubt we have a member who can speaks sinhalese in our forum...

    Here....🍷🍷 🤣🤣🤣 now start singing...

    DhammaDragon
  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @DhammaDragon said:

    @upekka said:
    for the members who can understand sinhala language:

    https://plus.google.com/+AranyavasiBiksuvak/posts/7MRYg4XGNhy

    if possible translate it into english and share with everyone

    I seriously doubt we have a member who can speaks sinhalese in our forum...

    victorious can

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Moderator

    Oh good.
    Then we'll wait for him to offer a nugget of insight.

  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran

    Who wants an Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Three Orange Whips.

    DhammaDragon
  • HozanHozan Veteran

    @dhammachick said:
    Who wants an Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Three Orange Whips.

    Sounds good! I'll have one please. Is it an icecream or will it hurt?

    DhammaDragon
  • HozanHozan Veteran
    edited July 6

    Found it! Awesome!! The Blues Brothers . Great movie. I had forgotten this scene.

    dhammachick
  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited July 6

    @Hozan said:
    will it hurt?

    Only if you want it to..... oh did I think that out loud goes back to her coffee

    DhammaDragon
  • HozanHozan Veteran

    @dhammachick said:

    @Hozan said:
    will it hurt?

    Only if you want it to..... oh did I think that out loud goes back to her coffee

    Yes please...oh did I think that out loud * goes back to his knitting*

    dhammachickDhammaDragon
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @upekka said:
    since I am full of ignorance, craving and conceit, but try to practice Dhamma that i have learnt, i try to test myself by analysing my reaction and my action to your post

    You too eh? Tsk, tsk ...

    following is my analysis:

    dedacted to protect the innocent and easily bored

    it is a life long practice to be mindful with the understanding one get through Insight meditation

    B)

    Indeed. Insight ideally accomodates the needs, inclinations and understanding of others, which may end up with a touch of Mahayana compassion and Bodhisattva tendencies for Therevadins ...

    Life time practice? No-way to start the day?

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem switzerland Veteran
    edited July 8

    @upekka said:

    @DhammaDragon said:

    @upekka said:
    for the members who can understand sinhala language:

    https://plus.google.com/+AranyavasiBiksuvak/posts/7MRYg4XGNhy

    if possible translate it into english and share with everyone

    I seriously doubt we have a member who can speaks sinhalese in our forum...

    victorious can

    Victorious is long freezing up in Sweden without paying a visit...

  • DhammaDragonDhammaDragon Carpe Diem switzerland Veteran
    edited July 8

    @Hozan said:

    @dhammachick said:

    @Hozan said:
    will it hurt?

    Only if you want it to..... oh did I think that out loud goes back to her coffee

    Yes please...oh did I think that out loud * goes back to his knitting*

    I've missed all the fun, bug.. oh did I think that out loud 🐉 goes back to her stamp collection🐉

    dhammachickHozan
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