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Barcelona Terror Attack

ShoshinShoshin No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
edited August 17 in General Banter

There been a terror attack in Barcelona Spain ...The attack took place in the tourist area...13 people dead many injured ...

I was thinking about the old song from South Pacific "You have got to be taught" Sadly ...Never truer words spoken/sung...When will we learn ????

Comments

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited August 17

    We have to learn to stop giving people reason to hate. We (as in the allied western powers) have created a lot of misery that has contributed to a lot of desperate people. I think everyone has a lot of learning to do to help end the levels of hatred and violence in our world.

    lobsterJeffreyUkjunglist
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited August 17

    In Buddhism don't we believe that what happens to us is mostly due to what we do? So let's put the responsibility for these specific murders on the people who committed these murders.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    we can't do much of anything about those people. The authorities will handle them at this point. We can look at our own issues with people we hate and so on though. And the things we might do to decrease the way we, and our country, behave out in the world. In whichever ways we are able to do so, that is. But our ideologies have contributed to the creation of their ideologies. It's just the same old fight as it's always been. We kill innocent people and justify it, they kill innocent people and we decry it. Same cycle we're always stuck in. We, as individuals, can't control that whole cycle of course. Only whatever our part in it might be.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    When will we learn ????

    Some of us have.

    As individual Boddhisattvas (ideally) we make efforts on behalf of self, other and all semi-sentients - including heretics (lobster raises claw), the ignorant, the ignoble, the misguided, the hateful (must not mention trump, must not mention terrorists) and the goodly ...

    Bodhisattva Vow
    Just as all the previous Sugatas, the Buddhas
    Generated the mind of enlightenment
    And accomplished all the stages
    Of the Bodhisattva training,
    So will I too, for the sake of all beings,
    Generate the mind of enlightenment
    And accomplish all the stages
    Of the Bodhisattva training.

    Iz plan!

  • techietechie India Veteran
    edited August 18

    @vinlyn said:
    ** In Buddhism don't we believe that what happens to us is mostly due to what we do**? So let's put the responsibility for these specific murders on the people who committed these murders.

    No, that's a dangerous view. People may use this view to justify the attacks too.

  • KannonKannon NAMU AMIDA BUTSU Ach-To Veteran

    Interesting @techie and @vinlyn

    Prison abolishment gives me radical sentiments. But practically of course I believe in the safety of the majority and do not condone or dismiss violence or death. It is easy to see the cycle of pain though and dream of compassion. But what do you do with a finish line that doesn't have a starting point?

    How do we balance ideals with the relative world?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @techie said:

    @vinlyn said:
    ** In Buddhism don't we believe that what happens to us is mostly due to what we do**? So let's put the responsibility for these specific murders on the people who committed these murders.

    No, that's a dangerous view. People may use this view to justify the attacks too.

    Not at least speaking out against the murder of 13 innocent people is a dangerous view. Of course, if you have a quote from Buddha that says people should not be held responsible for their behaviors, I'll listen.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Yet another attack in Spain...

    "Police say the seven people were hurt when five "alleged terrorists" drove into pedestrians in the Spanish seaside resort before being shot dead by security forces.

    The five attackers in the Audi A3, who were wearing bomb belts, were shot dead, police added. The bomb belts, were detonated by the force's bomb squad."

    I often wonder if people who "hate" are actually aware of what they are doing ?

    Or do they see it as something entirely different ? ( a warped sense of righteousness )

    "You’ve got to be taught
    To hate and fear,
    You’ve got to be taught
    From year to year,
    It’s got to be drummed
    In your dear little ear
    You’ve got to be carefully taught.

    You’ve got to be taught to be afraid
    Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
    And people whose skin is a diff’rent shade,
    You’ve got to be carefully taught.

    You’ve got to be taught before it’s too late,
    Before you are six or seven or eight,
    To hate all the people your relatives hate,
    You’ve got to be carefully taught!"

  • techietechie India Veteran
    edited August 18

    @vinlyn said:

    @techie said:

    @vinlyn said:
    ** In Buddhism don't we believe that what happens to us is mostly due to what we do**? So let's put the responsibility for these specific murders on the people who committed these murders.

    No, that's a dangerous view. People may use this view to justify the attacks too.

    Not at least speaking out against the murder of 13 innocent people is a dangerous view. Of course, if you have a quote from Buddha that says people should not be held responsible for their behaviors, I'll listen.

    In your previous post, you wrote:In Buddhism don't we believe that what happens to us is mostly due to what we do?

    Now you write:Of course, if you have a quote from Buddha that says people should not be held responsible for their behaviors, I'll listen.

    You do realize that the two are entirely different, right?

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @vinlyn I don't think anyone was or is suggesting people not be held accountable. But as far as hatred goes, we are all responsible. There is never a shortage of compassion or speaking out for victims of such crimes. There are, however, many incidents of people decrying these crimes while turning around to commit similar ones, such as our politicians. Just 10 days ago the coalition we command killed 29 civilians, including 14 children. I didn't see a single person mention them. I'm just saying ,we shake our finger at people like the van drivers, but stand silently while others commit the same crimes. We call them justified. Well, so does the other side. We just don't like when they attack us/our allies.

    yagrUkjunglist
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @karasti said:
    @vinlyn I don't think anyone was or is suggesting people not be held accountable. But as far as hatred goes, we are all responsible. There is never a shortage of compassion or speaking out for victims of such crimes. There are, however, many incidents of people decrying these crimes while turning around to commit similar ones, such as our politicians. Just 10 days ago the coalition we command killed 29 civilians, including 14 children. I didn't see a single person mention them. I'm just saying ,we shake our finger at people like the van drivers, but stand silently while others commit the same crimes. We call them justified. Well, so does the other side. We just don't like when they attack us/our allies.

    I'm not aware of that particular case you refer to. But let me ask: did the coalition group intentionally kill 14 children?

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Yes. Their intention was to cause as much distress, confusion havoc and carnage. They KNEW the crowds they went for were holiday-makers, citizens and ordinary, everyday folk just going about their day. They didn't stop to exclude or consider WHO lay in their path - and they damn well knew their intentions didn't discriminate. The innocent were fair game to them, no matter who, or what age.

    So yes. They intentionally killed 14 children. Along with every other victim they intentionally maimed, hurt, or ran over.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited August 18

    I guess I consider war actions pretty intentional, @vinlyn. They just allow that "collateral damage" is acceptable. And it's my point exactly that you didn't even hear about it. We never do. Because terror attacks only make the news when they are against people like us, not when we are the terrorizers. Is it exactly the same? No. But it's comparable enough.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @karasti said:
    I guess I consider war actions pretty intentional, @vinlyn. They just allow that "collateral damage" is acceptable. And it's my point exactly that you didn't even hear about it. We never do. Because terror attacks only make the news when they are against people like us, not when we are the terrorizers. Is it exactly the same? No. But it's comparable enough.

    Actually, we often hear about incidents like the one you described. I'm no longer a close reader of the newspaper, but when you say "we never do"...yet you did.

    So much of Buddhism is about intent. We didn't intend to kill those children. The guys in Barcelona -- that's exactly what they intended to do. Neither is good, but if intent is important, the intent was different.

    There have certainly been unnecessary wars, and there is no excuse for when that happens. But I don't think you can run a country (even a Buddhist country) or the world based on Buddhist principles. Let me put it more starkly...the terrorists want to kill YOU and YOUR CHILDREN. That's their goal. That's their specific intent, and they've stated that clearly multiple times.

  • ToshTosh Veteran

    @karasti said:
    We have to learn to stop giving people reason to hate. We (as in the allied western powers) have created a lot of misery that has contributed to a lot of desperate people. I think everyone has a lot of learning to do to help end the levels of hatred and violence in our world.

    Spain has played a very minor role in the Middle East. There was no real reason to target them if that's what you're saying that's why it happened to them.

    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    edited August 18

    I heard about it because most of my news comes from other countries. It wasn't covered as a major story at all in any major Us news source, online or on tv, I found it in a few places when I searched after reading about it on European and Canadian news. The military certainly doesn't apologize much for all the innocent people they kill, it's just the business of war. To me, it's not any "better" than the business of terrorism. The intent when they issue orders to drop bombs, and when the bombs are dropped, is to kill whoever the bomb hits.

    It doesn't bother me to hear you say they want to kill me. Because somewhere in another country, someone else feels the same about the US military, and they wouldn't be incorrect.

  • gracklegrackle Veteran

    All the news I get comes from the radio. I think most things are covered but not as major stories. The seldom spoken of reality is that coalition elements may receive bad intel and become unwitting players in the internal power struggles often played out.
    ISIS knows that countries that abound in soft targets are easy to operate in. So Europe and the US can expect to face more terror actions. Its really just beginning.

    silverperson
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    @person said:
    I was at a large family gathering for the 4th of July and one of my cousins friends that I see at these things every once in a while got to talking about Black Lives Matter and said if he came upon them blocking the highway he would plow right through them.

    I knew he was pretty conservative but that really surprised me. My cousin in law challenged him a bit and said that he wouldn't really, that he was just talking but then he doubled down and said again he would. She said again that he really wouldn't and he again said he would.

    If I was at a Muslim friend's family gathering and someone there said the same thing, many people including my cousin's friend would expect that I contact the FBI about it. The level of cognitive dissonance involved boggles the mind.

    So true. That is the type of person I would walk away from without any hesitation, relative or not.

  • @Tosh said:

    @karasti said:
    We have to learn to stop giving people reason to hate. We (as in the allied western powers) have created a lot of misery that has contributed to a lot of desperate people. I think everyone has a lot of learning to do to help end the levels of hatred and violence in our world.

    Spain has played a very minor role in the Middle East. There was no real reason to target them if that's what you're saying that's why it happened to them.

    What if you are hated for your values and beliefs (or non beliefs)?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malaysia-religion-idUSKBN1AN18T

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited August 19

    @Tosh said:

    @karasti said:
    We have to learn to stop giving people reason to hate. We (as in the allied western powers) have created a lot of misery that has contributed to a lot of desperate people. I think everyone has a lot of learning to do to help end the levels of hatred and violence in our world.

    Spain has played a very minor role in the Middle East. There was no real reason to target them if that's what you're saying that's why it happened to them.

    What if you are hated for your values and beliefs (or non beliefs)? Religion has always been exploited to control its followers.

    http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2017/08/08/malaysia-probes-atheist-group-after-uproar-over-muslim-apostates/

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/10/jakarta-protests-christian-governor-ahok-guilty-blasphemy

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @Tosh No, I'm not suggesting that. It was a "generally speaking" type of comment. I'm not saying Spain was a direct retaliation, tit-for-tat style. But to extremists, the differences make no difference.

  • personperson Where is my mind? 'Merica! Veteran

    @vinlyn said:

    @person said:
    I was at a large family gathering for the 4th of July and one of my cousins friends that I see at these things every once in a while got to talking about Black Lives Matter and said if he came upon them blocking the highway he would plow right through them.

    I knew he was pretty conservative but that really surprised me. My cousin in law challenged him a bit and said that he wouldn't really, that he was just talking but then he doubled down and said again he would. She said again that he really wouldn't and he again said he would.

    If I was at a Muslim friend's family gathering and someone there said the same thing, many people including my cousin's friend would expect that I contact the FBI about it. The level of cognitive dissonance involved boggles the mind.

    So true. That is the type of person I would walk away from without any hesitation, relative or not.

    The thing is for 99% of the time he was a great guy, friendly and helpful, he spent a lot of the day taking the kids tubing rather than hanging out with the adults. And then something like that pops out. I think it has something to do with tribalism, we were in his tribe so it was all smiles and handshakes, but if you're out of his tribe then anything goes and people are no longer people.

  • dhammachickdhammachick crazy Aussie BUJU Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited August 20

    @Tosh said:

    @karasti said:

    Spain has played a very minor role in the Middle East. There was no real reason to target them if that's what you're saying that's why it happened to them.

    Well historically, Spain was a point of contention as it was conquered and became part of the Islamic Caliphate about 711. Islam was part of Spain til the 19th century. The area of the first attack was the Jewish quarter. ISIS claimed responsibility and since they state their aim is for a global Islamic Caliphate, it sadly makes sense why it was targeted.

    /takes off history cap

    ToshBunks
  • gracklegrackle Veteran

    There were two orders of expulsion is Spanish history. The first was the Alhambra decree promulgated under Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492 which lead to the expulsion of the Jews. The second under Phillip the third which lead to the expulsion of the Moors in 1609. Those Jews and Moors who had converted were not safe either. The sincerity of their conversions was often challenged.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @person it's "funny" what we excuse when someone is in our tribe. I don't hold back on my FB account, and my very conservative, catholic mother-in-law sees it. I don't know if she supports things that I don't, but her husband, my FIL, does. But they'll excuse all sorts of stuff, or ignore it, because of keeping the peace between my husband and I. For me, the same with them. All we need is something in common to do so. But, that same thing in common can be a catalyst for a healthy and meaningful debate.

  • @karasti said:
    @vinlyn I don't think anyone was or is suggesting people not be held accountable. But as far as hatred goes, we are all responsible. There is never a shortage of compassion or speaking out for victims of such crimes. There are, however, many incidents of people decrying these crimes while turning around to commit similar ones, such as our politicians. Just 10 days ago the coalition we command killed 29 civilians, including 14 children. I didn't see a single person mention them. I'm just saying ,we shake our finger at people like the van drivers, but stand silently while others commit the same crimes. We call them justified. Well, so does the other side. We just don't like when they attack us/our allies.

    These are all very good points. I see all too often people discussing events such as terrorist attacks, about how terrible it is and so forth, and then in the same sentence suggesting to kill and torture the people involved or even people connected to them. Do they not see that they have become the very thing they are angry about lol? The ego allows someone to commit a horrible act and yet justify it because they view that act from a specific standpoint, when in reality and from an objective point of view, it is still a terrible act.

    Also in the West people are subject to the media and only ever see what the media wants them to see. As you mentioned in your OP about 29 civilians being killed. I will always remember the video of Madeleine Albright giving an interview, and claiming that the death of 500,000 Iraqi children was justified.. I have a dear friend who lives in London going back since 2004, and she had to flee Iraq with her family due to the US invading, destroying and killing the lives of the people around her. Lucky for her that her family was wealthy and they could escape.

    I don't give a crap what political affiliation Madeleine Albright is with, the left and the right are the same evil in this regard. Obama left and thus Trump continued on with his bombings of Middle Eastern countries, signing a deal with Saudi Arabia for a ton of weaponry and nuclear technology, a deal that Obama constructed but which Trump finalised. These are small things to take into consideration, but the overall message here is that as long as the US goes into Middle Eastern countries under false pretentions, fueled by greed and void of compassion, people are going to grow up in those parts of the world suffering and subsequently brewing a whole lot of hatred.

    lobstersilverkarastiShoshin
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran

    @Ukjunglist Yes, exactly.

  • I've found in life that, when I'm not punching people in the face, people tend not to punch me in the face.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    The perpetrators as well as the victims are in their own ways both suffering... It's the faulty axle that causes the wheel not to spin properly (Dukkha) on the journey through cyclic existence (Samsara) ...

    Where the perpetrator often becomes the victim and the victim will often become the perpetrator...This is all down to the "Unsatisfactory" nature of living in Samsara...(where the mind is turned outwards lost in its projection)

    This ^^ may sound all flowery, but it is the truth in plain sight...

    Bunks
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