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Dependent arising

CarameltailCarameltail UK Veteran
edited March 3 in Buddhism Basics

All phenomena fundamentally empty.
There are no independent objects.
All phenomena arises dependent on other phenomena. Including suffering.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratītyasamutpāda
http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell08.htm

'think of a clock. Whenever we see a clock, we label it a clock, but if we were to separate the component pieces, then the "clock" would cease to exist, because no basis of imputation would remain. In actuality there was no truly existent clock in the first place—only the causes and conditions fit to be labeled a "clock.' - Zongtrul Losang Tsöndru

person

Comments

  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    Except that the causes and conditions caused the clock to be... :)

    Carameltail
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited March 3

    Ah, but the potential for the clock has always been. When conditions allow, the clock will manifest. Otherwise it will stay hidden.

    Carameltail
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think 'Merica! Veteran

    "Clock" is just a label our minds place on a shifting set of causes and conditions. In our ignorance we mistake the mental label "clock" for something solid out in the world.

    Snakeskin
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    @person said:
    "Clock" is just a label our minds place on a shifting set of causes and conditions. In our ignorance we mistake the mental label "clock" for something solid out in the world.

    I think we do it more out of convenience than ignorance but ignorance could follow as convenience is often the precursor for necessity.

    Snakeskin
  • SnakeskinSnakeskin Veteran
    edited March 3

    On dependently arisen clocks:

    “On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its signs and features… [otherwise] evil, unwholesome states of longing and dejection might invade him.”

    One interpretation:

    When experience of a conditioned phenomenon occurs through the six sense bases, there's no grasping at the sign (i.e., nimitta, percept, e.g., clock, chariot, tree, person) through the features (i.e., anubyanjana, secondary signs, percepts of the constituents, e.g., form, feeling, perception, volition, consciousness) less evil, unwholesome phenomena of longing and dejection arise.

    Edit: changed point of view.

    Shoshin
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think 'Merica! Veteran

    @David said:

    @person said:
    "Clock" is just a label our minds place on a shifting set of causes and conditions. In our ignorance we mistake the mental label "clock" for something solid out in the world.

    I think we do it more out of convenience than ignorance but ignorance could follow as convenience is often the precursor for necessity.

    Convenience would imply that we understand and see, moment to moment, that the world is a shifting set of causes and conditions and we only choose to use labels. I assume that is what an enlightened person would be doing, but I don't think that is what we are doing.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    Is it a 'clock' if you see a clock in a lucid dream?

    Snakeskin
  • SnakeskinSnakeskin Veteran

    @Jeffrey, whether the stimulus is external or internal, the 'clock' is always created internally.

    personKerome
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited March 3

    @person said:

    @David said:

    @person said:
    "Clock" is just a label our minds place on a shifting set of causes and conditions. In our ignorance we mistake the mental label "clock" for something solid out in the world.

    I think we do it more out of convenience than ignorance but ignorance could follow as convenience is often the precursor for necessity.

    Convenience would imply that we understand and see, moment to moment, that the world is a shifting set of causes and conditions and we only choose to use labels. I assume that is what an enlightened person would be doing, but I don't think that is what we are doing.

    I don't understand. Are you saying you are not aware that a clock is a shifting set of causes and conditions and that we use labels so we can share information with each other easier?

    Not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand.

  • SnakeskinSnakeskin Veteran

    @Carameltail said:
    All phenomena fundamentally empty.
    There are no independent objects.
    All phenomena arises dependent on other phenomena. Including suffering.

    Is 'phenomena' and 'objects' used interchangeably?

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think 'Merica! Veteran

    @David said:

    @person said:

    @David said:

    @person said:
    "Clock" is just a label our minds place on a shifting set of causes and conditions. In our ignorance we mistake the mental label "clock" for something solid out in the world.

    I think we do it more out of convenience than ignorance but ignorance could follow as convenience is often the precursor for necessity.

    Convenience would imply that we understand and see, moment to moment, that the world is a shifting set of causes and conditions and we only choose to use labels. I assume that is what an enlightened person would be doing, but I don't think that is what we are doing.

    I don't understand. Are you saying you are not aware that a clock is a shifting set of causes and conditions and that we use labels so we can share information with each other easier?

    I'm saying that there are explicit views and implicit views. So a member of the KKK has explicit negative views about black people. While lots of people, including myself, who aren't explicitly racist like the KKK have negative implicit views about black people, for example we are quicker to associate negative words towards black people.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40124781

    So my explicit view of the world says everything is conditional and interdependent. But my implicit view is that the solid labels I put on things is the way they really are. The ignorance we need to overcome isn't the explicit understanding of the world, that is easy. What is hard is to overcome our implicit understanding of the world.

    Snakeskin
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran

    Ok, for sure you lost me there so I'll just take your word for that. I've always been in a diverse area though. No idea why a dark skinned person would make me feel any different than a lighter one.

    I understand that everything is just information being shared and that the labels we use are tools that help us understand each other and share information easier.

  • CarameltailCarameltail UK Veteran

    @Snakeskin said:

    @Carameltail said:
    All phenomena fundamentally empty.
    There are no independent objects.
    All phenomena arises dependent on other phenomena. Including suffering.

    Is 'phenomena' and 'objects' used interchangeably?

    Well it can be that seemingly solid objects can be seen as composed of phenomena but essentially both are illusory. But yes I wouldn't say they are exactly the same sort of thing.
    I saw the word dharmas also used for phenomena.

    Snakeskin
  • CarameltailCarameltail UK Veteran
    edited March 3

    Which reminds me there conceptual framework which a certain sort of social scientists use to view people as composed of phenomena. That the person is not one stable object but it composed of many different things and is everchanging never completed. Also all 'objects' are fundamentally interelated to each other and depend upon each other. It's just a framework though for analysis.

    Snakeskin
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think 'Merica! Veteran

    @David said:
    Ok, for sure you lost me there so I'll just take your word for that. I've always been in a diverse area though. No idea why a dark skinned person would make me feel any different than a lighter one.

    I understand that everything is just information being shared and that the labels we use are tools that help us understand each other and share information easier.

    Maybe a simpler way to say it is explicit beliefs are conscious and implicit are unconscious. So the explicit belief is that all phenomena are interdependent, while the implicit belief still remains that phenomena are solid and isolated.

    Maybe try taking one of Harvard's implicit bias tests to try to get an understanding. Lots of people who don't have any explicit racial, gender, or cultural biases still have many implicit biases.

    https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

    DavidSnakeskinlobster
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @Carameltail said:

    I saw the word dharmas also used for phenomena.

    "Transient alas; are all component things
    Subject are they to birth and then decay
    Having gained birth; to death the life flux swings
    Bliss truly dawns when unrest dies away!"


    "Whosoever sees the Dharma-sees Dependant Origination
    Whosoever sees Dependant Origination-sees the Dharma"

    On a personal level I define Dharma simply as the true nature of things and Dharma practice involves active exploration of this nature/phenomena ....

    lobster
  • SnakeskinSnakeskin Veteran

    @Carameltail said:
    Which reminds me there conceptual framework which a certain sort of social scientists use to view people as composed of phenomena. That the person is not one stable object but it composed of many different things and is everchanging never completed. Also all 'objects' are fundamentally interelated to each other and depend upon each other. It's just a framework though for analysis.

    LOL That pretty much sums my own conceptual framework of conditioned reality, though in my own objects are really objectifications of events. Happen to remember what that's called?

  • CarameltailCarameltail UK Veteran
    edited March 3

    @Snakeskin said:

    @Carameltail said:
    Which reminds me there conceptual framework which a certain sort of social scientists use to view people as composed of phenomena. That the person is not one stable object but it composed of many different things and is everchanging never completed. Also all 'objects' are fundamentally interelated to each other and depend upon each other. It's just a framework though for analysis.

    LOL That pretty much sums my own conceptual framework of conditioned reality, though in my own objects are really objectifications of events. Happen to remember what that's called?

    It was basically like a critique or several critiques of humanism and mind-body dualism so kind of a form of post humanism.

    It involves a hint of the philosopher foucault but also a large part of it was influenced by deluze idea of becoming. It was refered to as vitalism, but i'm not sure if it is the same as the common defintion. But there was a journal article i read mentioning transcending variables such as class and race by viewing things as disunified connections that are tenporarily drawn together.

    Actor network theory was involved too where individuals are understood as relations and interactions. This was related to the fact that we use 'tools" to do things, can be like computers or even language.

    There was also the idea of hybridity which a
    again emphasised the idea of becoming the other.

    Snakeskin
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited March 4

    "Whosoever sees the Dharma-sees Dependant Origination
    Whosoever sees Dependant Origination-sees the Dharma"

    As @Shoshin quotes, a fundamental topic. So thanks to @Carameltail for a new thread on it.

    I tend to apply dependent origination to my mind and ignorance.
    During meditation every arising, impediment and euphoric mind burp is dependent on an origin. That is my mind lab, dharma science - exploration of dependent originations ...

    Still Mind?

  • JaySonJaySon Florida Veteran

    The clock is made of non-clock elements.

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