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What's a "lay zen priest"?

edited December 2009 in Buddhism Today
Someone contacted me recently via email saying he's a lay zen priest. I don't know what this is but I'm really interested to know. I've contacted him several times since he sent me that email but he hasn't responded. So, I figure I'll get at least a couple of answers from this board.

Thanks so much.
Troy Santos.
«1

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2008
    Oh, right.
    It sounds to me (and I'm only guessing) that he may be a Zen Monk by virue of the fact that he took ordination, but then left to become a lay person again...
    I'm not sure.
    Be nice to know his web-name, or details though.
    sounds interesting.....
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited February 2008
    I think there are Zen schools where one can become ordained in some way and still remain a lay person but the details are vague in my memory. Or I could be wrong...
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited February 2008
    troysantos wrote: »
    Someone contacted me recently via email saying he's a lay zen priest. I don't know what this is but I'm really interested to know. I've contacted him several times since he sent me that email but he hasn't responded. So, I figure I'll get at least a couple of answers from this board.

    Thanks so much.
    Troy Santos.


    Hi Troy,

    Are you sure it wasn't a lazy zen priest?
  • edited February 2008
    ROFL - that was how I first read it! Age and lack of glasses rule!
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited February 2008
    What is a lay zen priest? Zenmonk.

    -bf
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2008
    Yes..... I thought that. Which is why I'd be interested to know the forum name.... ;)
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Oops. I missed that in your post, Freddie :)

    -bf
  • edited February 2008
    The person contacted me through a raw food forum. It was in response to some things I'd written in my diary on the raw food forum.

    I'm surprised nobody here knows. I guess they're not very common, these lay zen priests.

    Or, maybe they're just too lazy to reply to this thread!
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2008
    OK, Troy, The reason we're.... reticent, if you like, is because we used to have a member here who basically presented himself in the same light. Unfortunately, he left in 'clouded' circumstances (I am not able to divulge the exact nature, as firstly, I was not 100% party to his departure, and secondly - I don't think it appropriate to discuss such matters on open forum). I think we're just wondering if it might be the same person, as it's the only person of that ilk that we have ever come across here, or perhaps, anywhere else.... I think that's all....

    :)
  • edited February 2008
    ok
    i think perhaps i may be able to answer your question but i must state that my sources are entirely from observations and therefore please don't take what i say as the difinative definition of a lay monk.
    here in japan - where i think we'd all agree zen schools were historically the most prolific - there are regular references to lay monks and nuns. i believe this originated from the nature of zen teaching here in the past. nobles and other persons of high status would usually have a family connection with local temples and, as a result, recieve tuition in the dharma from priests associated with those temples. more often than not this was usually quite casual but sometimes the students would develop into stringent pratitions. they could then 'leave the family' and officially ordain as monks or nuns in monastaries. there were times, however, when, due to strict heirachical duties, this just wasn't possible. the practitioner therefore would ordain and recieve precepts but remain in the secular world. this is, as i see it, the origins of lay ordination.
    on a related note, if you have any questions in reference to zen practise i would be happy to do my best to help in any way i can.
    i hope this post has been useful.
    dave
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Mao Zhedong, the Great Helmsman, called himself "a lone monk in the world with a leaky umbrella." No one much more 'lay' than him!
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited February 2008
    There is a time and place for everything.

    I've often heard people say that, "you just need a good lay zen priest."

    Must be a reason they exist.

    -bf
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2008
    BF.....Put in a comma, and the whooooole thing suddenly changes what you mean....!!:o :D
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited February 2008
    federica wrote: »
    BF.....Put in a comma, and the whooooole thing suddenly changes what you mean....!!:o :D

    ....and we're back to our old friend!
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited February 2008
    I'm sorry - I don't understand where you two are going with this.

    Has anyone seen my halo?

    -bf
  • edited February 2008
    Sure thing BF - I am sitting on it.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2008
    *giggle-smirk*.....
  • edited February 2008
    Ah, you in your reticence have cleared some things up for me. Perhaps there's about one maybe two examples of such a "lay zen priest" in this world. So perhaps I am better off jetisoning this interest without haste.

    Thanks so much, even for your reticence!
    Troy.
  • edited February 2008
    federica wrote: »
    BF.....Put in a comma, and the whooooole thing suddenly changes what you mean....!!:o :D


    i quite, and by this i mean rather, enjoy, am stimulated by, a heavy, though by no means excessive, use of one particular punctuation mark.
    ;>
  • edited February 2008
    BeautifulSpringtimeFist, is this your user name?! And, do you know if there is video footage of those Vietnamese monks taken while they were sitting there burning to death? I've looked but have never found anything.

    Fed, I like your idea of the punctuation mark. Great.
  • jj5jj5 Medford Lakes, N.J. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Without sounding creepy; I`m kind of intrigued with this picture of the burning monk. What I see is an individual in a sort of supreme bliss. Like those car commercials where there is all this commotion going on outside, but as soon as you close the door, it becomes extremely quiet and peaceful. I believe this picture is of a monk who set himself on fire in protest of something during the Vietnam war. I don`t know, I just think he is an example to strive for. (Except for the self-immolation) Is that crazy or what. I`m not looking at the suicide part of this, just the state of mind he is in. What do you think?
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited February 2008
    What do I think?

    I think you have the kind of imagination that most people would not indulge.

    But I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just unthinkable for me. I'm all for cremation for dead bodies, though I think self immolation to be beyond my worst dreams. I'd let them singe my hair, though. It's not that I'm a moral coward, just a physical one.

    My state of mind, I think, tends towards preserving life and seeking experiences to PROLONG the high. But then, maybe I just ask too much from life. Dunno. But I'm glad there's diversity down here and so long as I don't have to follow I'm glad to hear about the journeys of others.

    May the Force Be Always With Thee!
  • jj5jj5 Medford Lakes, N.J. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Oh no! I think you misunderstood me! When I first saw this picture years ago, I was disgusted. But then I noticed how he was just sitting there with all of that incredible heat and pain engulfing him. I would have been running around in circles screaming my head off! I looked past the obvious horror in the picture and became interested in his state of mind. He looked very peaceful. Maybe this picture is a bad example of what I`m trying to say, but this is what I saw beneath the horror. I`m not very good at all when it comes to saying what I think. It usually comes out all wrong. Just forget the fire part and look at the monk. The fire represents what is wrong with the world and he represents nirvana or pure bliss.

    Oh never mind! Sometimes I think of things in a roundabout way! Just forget I said it, nothing to see here, go on now!
  • jj5jj5 Medford Lakes, N.J. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Now I`ve gone and done it! I made you all think I`m this pyromaniac with a death wish. Talk about a bad first impression!

    May the force be with you too!
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited February 2008
    This incident did indeed occur during the Vietnam War. If I remember correctly, the monk was protesting the war. He may also have been protesting American manipulation of the South Vietnamese government, but I don't remember for sure. While his actions seem to go against everything the Buddha taught, actually I would say it was the action of a true bodhisattva who sacrificed his own life in the hope that others would benefit. And I think he succeeded. This image was burned into our collective consciousness at the time and was, I would say, very instrumental in helping set off the huge wave of public outcry that eventually led to our withdrawal from the war. It still is an extraordinarily powerful image. It makes me sad to think that there is no similar public outcry against the war in Iraq today. What has become of us?

    Palzang
  • jj5jj5 Medford Lakes, N.J. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited February 2008
    I think the American public has become very passive when it comes to these things. Maybe gullible is also a good word because we have come to believe a lot of the [EMAIL="bulls@#t"]bulls@#t[/EMAIL] that is being fed to us by our leaders about the supposed need to "stay the course".

    Joe
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Hi, JJ.

    Yes, that's a picture of a Vietnamese Buddhist monk who is protesting, not the war, but the governmental crackdown of Buddhism itself at the time of the war. He is a national treasure in Vietnam and his heart is said to have survived the flames and is guarded and kept in a special memorial for people to visit.

    I feel very much like you do about that photo and others like it. In fact, it's one of the factors that brought me to Buddhism. When I looked closely, as you did, and saw his face, the peace and deep meditation he was in even though his body was burning, I was overwhelmed and very deeply inspired to find the same serenity even if I could only have a fraction of what he had developed.

    I've also seen film footage of this event. Astounding. This is proof to any who have the ability to look that there is something in this world we can turn to that will help us develop our minds so profoundly we can indeed find true peace and happiness.

    So if you put aside the horror of the event and see it in a different light, it is actually one of the most powerful and beautiful images of the truth the Buddha taught. Absolutely amazing. Perhaps this is what your mind reacted to? I know mine certainly did.
  • edited February 2008
    I remember being similarly moved by the Czeck studen Jan Palak who burned himself to death in Prague in protest at the Soviet invasion in 1968.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited February 2008
    There was every chance that the Mahatma Gandhi would have committed suicide by self-starvation, and we would be praising him, too.

    I realise that what I am about to say may seem upsetting to some people and I hope that they will appreciate that it is not my intention.

    I am aware that there are other self-immolators for causes they believe in strongly. I was living in a very Irish part of London when Bobby Sands and the other nine IRA prisoners died as a result of their hunger strike. To some they were martyrs, to others it was "good riddance" to terrorists.

    And, as I reflect on this, I am aware that there can be a mindset that sees what we call "suicide bombers" as martyrs dying for a cause.

    We separate the 'good' from the 'bad' according to prejudgements and opinions.
  • jj5jj5 Medford Lakes, N.J. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Brigid wrote: »
    Hi, JJ.

    Yes, that's a picture of a Vietnamese Buddhist monk who is protesting, not the war, but the governmental crackdown of Buddhism itself at the time of the war. He is a national treasure in Vietnam and his heart is said to have survived the flames and is guarded and kept in a special memorial for people to visit.

    I feel very much like you do about that photo and others like it. In fact, it's one of the factors that brought me to Buddhism. When I looked closely, as you did, and saw his face, the peace and deep meditation he was in even though his body was burning, I was overwhelmed and very deeply inspired to find the same serenity even if I could only have a fraction of what he had developed.

    I've also seen film footage of this event. Astounding. This is proof to any who have the ability to look that there is something in this world we can turn to that will help us develop our minds so profoundly we can indeed find true peace and happiness.

    So if you put aside the horror of the event and see it in a different light, it is actually one of the most powerful and beautiful images of the truth the Buddha taught. Absolutely amazing. Perhaps this is what your mind reacted to? I know mine certainly did.

    Exactly! Thank you! :bowdown:
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited February 2008
    There was every chance that the Mahatma Gandhi would have committed suicide by self-starvation, and we would be praising him, too.

    I realise that what I am about to say may seem upsetting to some people and I hope that they will appreciate that it is not my intention.

    I am aware that there are other self-immolators for causes they believe in strongly. I was living in a very Irish part of London when Bobby Sands and the other nine IRA prisoners died as a result of their hunger strike. To some they were martyrs, to others it was "good riddance" to terrorists.

    And, as I reflect on this, I am aware that there can be a mindset that sees what we call "suicide bombers" as martyrs dying for a cause.

    We separate the 'good' from the 'bad' according to prejudgements and opinions.


    I think you're right, Simon. I've always thought it would be much more productive to try to understand why these people feel a need to sacrifice themselves rather than condemn them for doing so. Of course, the self-immolaters and the hunger strikers didn't take scores of people with them. That is an important difference.

    Palzang
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2008
    If you will excuse me saying, whilst I completely see Simon's point of view, here - and it IS a valid point - there was a news article this morning on the World Service mentioning that security forces are beginning to round up homeless people, the handicapped, the mentally disturbed and vagrants in Baghdad because the 'terrorists' are using them as suicide bombers. The last two were women identified as in need of psychiatric care and of unsound mind....
    Such people with issues are seen as expendable.... :wtf:
    so it makes me wonder whether people with mental and physical handicaps are regarded in a particular way by Islam and the Qu'ran, or whether it is just a heinous and callous disregard for life on their part, and a selfish means of carrying out attacks without anyone 'able-bodied' having to suffer....:rant:
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited February 2008
    federica wrote: »
    If you will excuse me saying, whilst I completely see Simon's point of view, here - and it IS a valid point - there was a news article this morning on the World Service mentioning that security forces are beginning to round up homeless people, the handicapped, the mentally disturbed and vagrants in Baghdad because the 'terrorists' are using them as suicide bombers. The last two were women identified as in need of psychiatric care and of unsound mind....
    Such people with issues are seen as expendable.... :wtf:
    so it makes me wonder whether people with mental and physical handicaps are regarded in a particular way by Islam and the Qu'ran, or whether it is just a heinous and callous disregard for life on their part, and a selfish means of carrying out attacks without anyone 'able-bodied' having to suffer....:rant:

    Googling, I found this:
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Question:[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What are the teachings of Islam on mentally or physically disabled people? Very little literature is available on your or other Islamic websites regarding the following core questions: [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1- Why Allah has created these imperfect human beings? [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2- Is that a kind of punishment of Allah on these humans or their loved ones? [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]3- Is there any Hadith or Qur'anic reference regarding reward or punishment for the disabled people or their families?[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Answer:[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]All thanks and praise are due to Allah and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Dear questioner, we really appreciate your good question. In fact, it is a question that reflects great intelligence. In fact, Islam provides guidance to mankind, in all aspects of life. It urges Muslims to seek guidance and exert every effort. A Muslim is always encouraged to leave no stone unturned in pursuing the truth. May Allah Almighty help us make use of the truth, after getting it, and help us to steer clear of falsehood, Ameen![/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]As regards your question, we would like to say to you that Allah has created people in different races, colors and having various abilities. While some of them are given certain gifts, others are deprived of these gifts and thus are disabled. This is the nature of life, according to the Divine Wisdom through which Allah governs everything.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Tackling this important issue, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi states the following:[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In fact, man’s life is a full record of hardships and tribulations. In this sense, Allah says: “ We create man from a drop of thickened fluid to test him” (Al-Insaan:2) When man looks upon these tribulations and afflictions as being a test from Almighty Allah to see his true colors, he will come to know that there is a great Divine wisdom behind all these tests. This is surely an absolute fact, whether we know it or not.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It is also a great thing that Almighty Allah, when depriving a person of a certain ability or gift, compensates him for it, by bestowing upon him/her other gift, whith which he excels others. That is why we see that those people who are deprived of sight, have very sensitive ears that they can hear very low beats or movements around them. They are given excellence in many other abilities to compensate their imperfection.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]If a person adopts this view, he will surely find rest and get contented with the test posed on him by Almighty Allah. Every person should bear in mind that he can never change his inability or escape Allah’s fate and thus he should try his best to make his life better and turn this sore lemon into sweet honey. This inability should be a motive to creativity and excellence in any field of life. A disabled person should make his condition an impetus towards being distinguished and prominent in the society.[/FONT]


    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]How To Overcome Disability and Become an Active Member in the Society:[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In order to be an active member in the society, a disabled person needs to be fully aware of his surroundings and the nature of his disability. In addition, it is incumbent on the society to offer a helping hand to all those people. Islamic history has a shining record of many examples of people who, while having some kind of disability, occupied very excellent positions and prominent status in the society. `Atta Ibn Abi Rabah, who was known of being black, lame and paralyzed person, was the greatest Mufti in Makkah. He was highly honored by `Abdul-Malik Ibn Marawan, the Muslim caliph of that time. His vast knowledge earned this prestige.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Also, we know the story of the great Companion `Amr Ibn Al-Jamooh, who was also lame. His four sons, when participating in Jihad, said to him: “You have an excuse to remain at home, for you are old and you have a kind of disability.” With full confidence and trust in Allah, he said to them: “Nay, for I hope to walk in Paradise with my lame foot.” Commenting on this, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said to them: “Leave him! He is a man who seeks martyrdom.” Almighty Allah guides all Muslims not to leave those disabled in isolation lest they fall a prey to despair and psychological ailments. They should be welcomed to the open society and be dealt with in the kindest way.[/FONT]


    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Duty of the Society towards the Disabled:[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It must be clearly borne in mind that there are things that happen out of man’s control and there are things that happen to man out of his own negligence, To make this matter clear, we may quote the following example. An infant gets paralyzed. This may occur due to his mother’s negligence of giving her child the due vaccination. So such disability is out of man’s negligence.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Now, it is the duty of the whole society to establish schools for those persons and secure them due care so that they become good members of the society and that they benefit themselves and their families. In the West, great care is shown to the disabled. It is duty of we Muslims to shoulder the responsibility of showing the utmost care to those people, for, according to the teachings of our religion, those persons are sources of Divine mercy and blessings being showered on us now and then. They are the weak for whose sake we are given sustenance and made victorious. In his Hadith, our Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “You are given sustenance and victory for the virtue of those who are weak amongst you.” We, should show mercy and care to the disabled out of both human and religious motives. In Islam, we are commanded to show mercy to everything in this world. In the Hadith: “Show mercy to those on earth so that He Who is in the heavens (i.e. Allah) bestow mercy to you.”
    [/FONT]
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2008
    Well, thank you Simon, I think that answers my question.... :rarr:

    just to show my sources:
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited February 2008
    It becomes more and more apparent that different cultures interpret Islam differently. This is particularly evident in the actions of governments. I wish I could believe that the 'vulnerable' were being identified in order to support, assist and empower them; unfortunately I can't.

    For many of us, it is a deep sorrow that we are seeing the beautiful, passionate, accepting and mystical Islam of such writers as Rumi and other Sufis being swamped by a totalitarianism which they would have found hard to recognise as the Q'ranic religion that they celebrated.
  • edited February 2008
    Very similarly - the "reported" words of Christ in the Bible (some three hundred years later) bear very little relation to the way in which they have been interpreted by some of his followers over the centuries.

    When there is The Book, there is always "what it really means" faction. Unhelpful.
  • edited February 2008
    To both JJ and Brigid, I can relate to what you're saying. I have also felt very strongly about this photograph. So much so that I have looked for some film footage.

    So Brigid, can you tell me anything about where you saw the footage? Or just anything that might help me track down something to watch?

    I haven't studied the picture like you have JJ, but I've felt strongly about it just the same.

    Seems to me that I've read that there were more than a few monks who did this during the mid 1960's as a kind of protest. Thich Naht Hahn has talked about this sort of thing and about these monks.
  • jj5jj5 Medford Lakes, N.J. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Here you go troysantos:

    http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/vietnam/figure/003-htQuangduc.htm
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjRfoGnsk0c

    It can be tough to watch, but read the article in the top link first.
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Yes, as I remember there were a few others, Troy.

    And thanks for the links, JJ.
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Also, I had forgotten that Quang Duc set himself on fire in June, 1963, which would have been before the U.S. had committed ground troops, but not before, I don't think, American military advisers were sent to Vietnam. In any case, it was incorrect on my part to say that Quang Duc's self immolation occurred during the war, that is, the American war, in Vietnam.

    I also had forgotten about the power of the Catholic Church and the role it played in all of this. But there were many factors involved, all in all quite a complex period in history. But it's all in the article...

    P.S. I don't know why, but everything about Vietnam and the U.S. from the time of Kennedy until 1975 or so is extremely interesting to me, ever since I was a little kid. When I was around 6 or 7 I used to think I was reborn from an American soldier who died in Vietnam. I used to have all sorts of silly ideas like this. Magical thinking. But something about the whole era had me, and still has me, a bit mesmerized, not least of all Quang Duc's actions and lack of outward reactions.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited February 2008
    jj5 wrote: »
    The fire represents what is wrong with the world and [the monk] represents nirvana or pure bliss.

    (Later Post)
    http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/vietnam/figure/003-htQuangduc.htm

    Hey, thanks, JJ5! That picture has always so horrified me that I was heretofor unable to imagine what you've described. Interesting, not just a statement but also a revelation of a Reality.

    As for your links, Thanks again. I find it reassuring that this destruction of life cannot be construed as being consistent with Buddhist doctrine or genuine Buddhist practice. I'm still rereading the above-sourced article from Buddhism today in an attempt to decide for myself whether this was indeed just an "ethical act." Very interesting time in history, and I wish more was said about earlier precedents.
  • jj5jj5 Medford Lakes, N.J. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited February 2008
    Brigid wrote: »
    Also, I had forgotten that Quang Duc set himself on fire in June, 1963, which would have been before the U.S. had committed ground troops, but not before, I don't think, American military advisers were sent to Vietnam. In any case, it was incorrect on my part to say that Quang Duc's self immolation occurred during the war, that is, the American war, in Vietnam.

    I also had forgotten about the power of the Catholic Church and the role it played in all of this. But there were many factors involved, all in all quite a complex period in history. But it's all in the article...

    P.S. I don't know why, but everything about Vietnam and the U.S. from the time of Kennedy until 1975 or so is extremely interesting to me, ever since I was a little kid. When I was around 6 or 7 I used to think I was reborn from an American soldier who died in Vietnam. I used to have all sorts of silly ideas like this. Magical thinking. But something about the whole era had me, and still has me, a bit mesmerized, not least of all Quang Duc's actions and lack of outward reactions.


    Perhaps you WERE a soldier in that horrible war. At 6 or 7 years old, your mind may have actually recalled events from that time before you were born.

    Or I could be wrong!
  • edited February 2008
    Well, I want to get back to my original question, namely, what a lay zen priest is.

    I wonder if it's a monk who is married.

    I know this isn't so unusual in Japan and think it's not so unusual in the US.
  • jj5jj5 Medford Lakes, N.J. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited February 2008
    I found this on Google:
    http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2005/summer/mel_weitsman.html
    It may be a Zen priest living outside of a monastery along with the lay people.

    That`s a very interesting question!
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited February 2008
    I'm not sure where you found this phrase, Troy, but it really doesn't make much sense in the context of Japanese Buddhism. Prior to 1872, Japanese Buddhist priests and monks were required by law to not eat meat, shave their heads and be celibate (though there were many examples of priests and monks and monasteries where all of these laws were regularly broken). In 1872, however, a law was passed by the Meiji administration that made it no longer a crime for Buddhist priests and monks to eat meat, not shave their heads, or get married. Since then, marriage amongst male priests and monks has been the rule. Only Japanese nuns remain celibate. So the term "lay Zen priest" doesn't make much sense unless they're referring to all Zen priests, except that they are ordained, just not celibate.

    Palzang
  • edited February 2008
    Palzang wrote: »
    Since then, marriage amongst male priests and monks has been the rule.

    Wha?

    *reads sentence again*

    Oh, that's what you meant. Carry on! :grin:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2008
    No, that's not what he meant..... *That's* what he meant.....!

    (silly!!)
  • edited February 2008
    Not that there's anything wrong with that.:lol:
  • edited February 2008
    troysantos wrote: »
    BeautifulSpringtimeFist, is this your user name?! And, do you know if there is video footage of those Vietnamese monks taken while they were sitting there burning to death?

    my apologies for the delay in replying...

    yes beautifulspringtimefist is my username - i would weep were it my real forename!
    i don't know of any video fotage of the vietnamese monks buring to death. i first encountered the image as a teen - on the cover of rage against the machine's self titled album. it's inspired me since though in different ways, over the years.
  • edited February 2008
    jj5, I confess that I didn't read even most of the article. I'm usually very brief when reading things online. I shy away from long things. Short attention span, and I keep my internet time short because I am on the office computer. Thanks for posting it though.

    Palzang, the phrase came from some person who posted something to a diary I had been maintaining on a raw food website. He wrote saying that he'd found the things I'd written interesting, then described himself as a lay zen priest. I've contacted him asking him what this means but he hasn't responded. So I contacted this group. Seems to me I've seen the term in other places but I don't know where. Googling the term came up with some things but I haven't done any serious research of the term.

    Never mind, the oceans aren't going to dry up over this issue. But won't it be neat if they do?!
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