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My experience, please weigh in.

edited October 2009 in Meditation
On sunday I decided to try and set the following week (starting yesterday monday) as a time for noble silence and zero entertainment.

Woke up yesterday, feeling optimistic. Proceeded to have some tea and a cigarette (I smoked a lot less but I wasn't going to try and drive myself crazy) showered and then did some highly un-entertaining work (sanding down surfaces and re-painting them white) After that was all done, all I could do was sit, so that what I did.

I found while I was watching, I day dreamed. And I havent done that since I was in primary school. It felt the same blissful way I remembered it too. Anyway, I realised that and let it drop like I think I'm supposed to and after a while of stillness (full of coming and going thoughts that i would rather be watching tv or checking my email) another memory came of a nightmare I used to have when I was sick as a child. The bed I was sitting on felt, not physically, but mentally like it was turning to a surface of sharp jagged spikes. I did my best to sit through this and let it go when it wanted to go, but it shifted to a feeling that everything was turning to chaotic complexity. Things seemed to literally knot up, not solid images or ideas, more just the feeling of something getting confused and perminently messed up, I really don't know what what it was but at the time it seemed to be very, very real. The same thing followed but as tearing and ripping.

I couldn't hold it much more so I moved a little (Maybe so I knew I was still there or could stop it?)

I was left with a feeling of pointlessness, in regards to everthing. But I let that go. And a thought came to me that things dont need a point to be what they are with ease.

Went to sleep and woke up today at 8am angry. Let that go and the feeling of pointlessness came back. Stayed in bed watching my mind, fell asleep and woke up at 2 pm. Thought if everything was pointless I might as well enjoy my time so I got up and broke my silence.

I'm really starting to wonder if this will result in the ending of suffering, I know for a fact that it eases gross suffering really well. But... I feel like I have to give up everything in order to give up suffering, but give up everything and why be alive?

Comments

  • LincLinc Community Instigator Detroit Moderator
    edited October 2009
    Kikujiro wrote: »
    I feel like I have to give up everything in order to give up suffering
    I think there's a difference between giving everything up and non-attachment.

    I also think that you would've been far more successful in your endeavour if you'd engaged in less day-dreaming and oversleeping, and instead had exercised, meditated, and engaged in meaningful hobbies. :)


    (man I should listen to my own advice sometimes...)
  • edited October 2009
    Lincoln wrote: »
    I think there's a difference between giving everything up and non-attachment.

    I also think that you would've been far more successful in your endeavour if you'd engaged in less day-dreaming and oversleeping, and instead had exercised, meditated, and engaged in meaningful hobbies. :)


    (man I should listen to my own advice sometimes...)

    Maybe thats true. I honestly don't see anything I do as anything that doesnt reinforce my ego and sense of self importance. But maybe I'm being to harsh with myself.
    Lincoln wrote: »
    (man I should listen to my own advice sometimes.)

    That would make things soo much easier if we could think of ourselves as somebody else and give advice we would follow.

    Damn do I need a teacher.
  • LincLinc Community Instigator Detroit Moderator
    edited October 2009
    I think you can become skillful in something without getting ego gratification from it.

    I will let you know when I figure out how :o
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Kikujiro wrote: »
    I'm really starting to wonder if this will result in the ending of suffering, I know for a fact that it eases gross suffering really well. But... I feel like I have to give up everything in order to give up suffering, but give up everything and why be alive?

    Where does "give up everything" come from?

    As some of the old Chan masters used to say, "You don't get two kinds of dirt from the same hole."
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2009
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    Where does "give up everything" come from?

    As some of the old Chan masters used to say, "You don't get two kinds of dirt from the same hole."


    Not sure what this may mean but it is obvious that the 'old Chan master' was never on the same sort of archaeological dig as I have enjoyed LOL.
  • edited October 2009
    i'm just STUNNED that you said you havent daydreamed since childhood.
    I daydream any time that i am not completely focused on a task. which is to say about 90% of my waking time. how can you not daydream? maybe my definition is different than yours. it's a pretty undefined word. [any time youre thinking about something that is not occuring in the present?] how can you live without thinking about the past or the future, or imagining situations? i find that disturbing.
    too much daydreaming is not good-but no daydreaming i think is terrible.
    is daydreaming considered bad in buddhism? i dont believe it. i think trying to be in the present every single second is like putting a straight jacket on your mind, and keeping it in the basement without any light. that would be pointless. worse than pointless. cruelty to mind and imagination
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Hi, BellyButton.

    What's so terrible about the present moment? After all, the present moment actually exists, unlike the past and the future. If you are daydreaming about 90% of your waking time is there something you are doing during that time that you don't want to be doing? Why does your mind want to get away from 90% of your waking time?

    Daydreaming is not 'bad' in Buddhism. But mindful awareness is a fundamental part of Buddhist training for a reason.
  • edited October 2009
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    Where does "give up everything" come from?

    As some of the old Chan masters used to say, "You don't get two kinds of dirt from the same hole."

    It wasnt a literal giving up of everything I was talking about. Just the feeling of that having to happen.
    i'm just STUNNED that you said you havent daydreamed since childhood.

    Well I drop into imagination alot of ourse, but its never as non dualistic and free feeling as that was. In this case it had nothing to do with fantasys about me, more about being in the a beautiful place.

    too much daydreaming is not good-but no daydreaming i think is terrible.
    is daydreaming considered bad in buddhism? i dont believe it. i think trying to be in the present every single second is like putting a straight jacket on your mind

    Its the middle way, in regards to right now. Or at least thats what I think. What is the middle way for you right now is not the middle way for you tomorrow. Its to me about baby steps to get you off of addiction to anything you happen to be addicted to. (in my case, everything)
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Kikujiro wrote: »
    It wasnt a literal giving up of everything I was talking about. Just the feeling of that having to happen.
    Where does that come from?

    Meditating is like going into a room that no one has used for many years. When you sit on the cushion, you raise a lot of dust which swirls around and irritates your nose and eyes. Gradually, the dust settles enough that you stop being uncomfortable. When a ray of light enters the room, you can still see some dust in the air, and it forms patterns and images that you find entertaining. As even this dust settles, you no longer have patterns and images, and you can't even tell if the ray of light is shining in. So you experience loss and emptiness. At this point, people generally find a way to raise more dust, and the process repeats. At some point, you realize that loss and emptiness and pointlessness are also specs of dust, and you let them settle.

    There's nothing that could happen that would be better than what's happening right now.
  • edited October 2009
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    Where does that come from?

    The same place everything else comes from, I'm sure. Just I'm not having to sit to experience loss and emptiness at the moment.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Kikujiro wrote: »
    Just I'm not having to sit to experience loss and emptiness at the moment.
    You don't have to sit to experience profound and transforming loss and emptiness.

    A teapot that's full isn't better than an empty teapot. An empty teapot isn't missing anything. Empty, full, empty, full, empty... That's completely a teapot.

    Happy, sad, happy, sad... That's completely me.

    This is where liberation is attained. Not through some idealized, perfect practice.
  • edited October 2009
    RenGalskap wrote: »
    You don't have to sit to experience profound and transforming loss and emptiness.

    A teapot that's full isn't better than an empty teapot. An empty teapot isn't missing anything. Empty, full, empty, full, empty... That's completely a teapot.

    Happy, sad, happy, sad... That's completely me.

    This is where liberation is attained. Not through some idealized, perfect practice.


    Seriously respecfully, I know this man. I know that everything is as it is, what I think about it is just what I think about it, no more and no less. I know what I think about life having no solid and reliable meaning is no different. It's my nature. I know that roses don't need a reason to flower and water doesn't need a reason to flow. But even still its killing me. I haven't let go of things, but I desperately want let go of the wheel and stop trying to make life last forever. I know thats what it takes (for me) though.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Kikujiro wrote: »
    I know this man.
    Clearly. You asked for words. You got words. Whether you know this or not, what is there to say?
    Kikujiro wrote: »
    I know that everything is as it is, what I think about it is just what I think about it, no more and no less. I know what I think about life having no solid and reliable meaning is no different. It's my nature. I know that roses don't need a reason to flower and water doesn't need a reason to flow. But even still its killing me. I haven't let go of things, but I desperately want let go of the wheel and stop trying to make life last forever. I know thats what it takes (for me) though.
    You have no idea how many years I spent grasping at not grasping. No one's been more of an idiot about this than I have.

    words words words wordswordswordswordswordswords....
  • edited October 2009
    You have no idea how many years I spent grasping at not grasping. No one's been more of an idiot about this than I have.
    And I thought I was the only one :-)

    Meditation is like medicine and it looks like Kikujiro may have overdosed. I'm thinking of doing a similar retreat but only for a couple of days. Also I'm going to have a big list of chores around the house to space out the meditation and silence. I'll have no problem giving up tv, but the internet? Yikes!
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Properly done, there's no OD'ing on meditation. It is important to build up the capacity for it in a sensitive way, though.
  • edited October 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    Properly done, there's no OD'ing on meditation. It is important to build up the capacity for it in a sensitive way, though.

    That's a much better way of putting it. After I posted I thought maybe approaching it more gradually would work.
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Perhaps it's time for a break from inward directed practice. Subuti, the arhat who receives the teachings in the Diamond Sutra, attained liberation by meditating on friendliness.

    There's more than one way to skin a cat. :-)
  • edited October 2009
    Ren, your former post was very useful to me. I always need a kick to show me I'm following my thoughts like it's the be all and end all.

    Though, to be honest, my initial thought was not the sort of thng I would post here without causing offense. lol
  • RenGalskapRenGalskap Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Kikujiro wrote: »
    Ren, your former post was very useful to me. I always need a kick to show me I'm following my thoughts like it's the be all and end all.

    Though, to be honest, my initial thought was not the sort of thng I would post here without causing offense. lol
    That's a better expression of the Buddha's teaching than anything I've posted.
  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    edited October 2009
    meditation is like exercise, u dont go jogging one day n expect immediate changes.

    ultimately u want to train your mind so that u can become a more peaceful n happy person. it takes practise discipline n time.

    rome was not built in a day.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited October 2009
    Re: Daydreaming. As an artist by profession the use of imagination, and the medium I work in provided some skillful little means for awareness of thought. It has been usefull for me, maybe it could be of use for you. Thoughts present two aspects, they are simple phenomena or objects of awarenes, and they have symbolic content. When I am lost in the thought, (usually drawn into a narrative), I am absorbed in its symbolic content while losing awareness of it as a simple phenomena. It is like a painting of a landscape, there is the paint, canvas etc., then there is the scene depicted by these things. That scene has illusory depth, associations and meaning, and I can get so absorbed in this image that I lose awareness of the paint, the canvas, the wall, and even the whole room. With practice I can fully know and value the landscape scene, without forgetting the paint. It is the same with thoughts. Their symbolic content is known, while their simple presence as objects are not lost. This way they flow of their own accord, without meeting obstruction, and awareness of bodymind is not lost. Thoughts belong to thoughts. Its amazing how we can find these helpful means in the stuff of daily life.
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