attempting zazen

michadelic

Hi everybody. I am pleased to have found this board, seems like a really great place.
I've just started attempting to practice meditation just these last few weeks. I've never had any formal instruction (and there doesn't seem to anyone in my area that I can go to). I'm currently sitting for 15-20 minutes twice daily, but I'm really having problems getting my back comfortable. I have my legs in half lotus posture and seem to be doing fairly well with that. But I'm constantly shifting my back every minute or so and I can't seem to find a posture that I can maintain for any length of time. At the end of the sitting my back is usually just sore. I don't know if my posture is incorrect or if I'm simply out of shape (well, I'm pretty sure of the latter anyway). I'm not even sure if I'd know if my posture was truly correct or not. I've seen some videos on youtube, and read that you have to keep the spine straight and the back relaxed, but I don't seem to be finding that happy medium, in fact at this point it seems like a contradiction. :rolleyes: Any advice from more experienced practitioners would be welcome. Could it be that I just have to condition my back muscles more or is this a definite sign of poor posture? Or both?
Thank you and take care.
Peace to you,
Mike

Kikujiro

Are you sitting on a cushion? or something that lifts you up a few inches? I used to just sit on the floor and when I started using a thick cushion it took some of the tension out of the base of my spine.

michadelic

Hi Kikujiro,

I have been using a cushion. I bought a zafu a while ago and I'm hoping it's the right size. Should I be experimenting with different cushions perhaps?
Thanks,
Mike

Kikujiro

Depending on how bad your back feels, try seeing that feeling (and the thinking it triggers/or triggers it) as something to observe and let go of. It's easy to get into the thinking that, if it's not perfect, its not right and it needs to be fixed.

If it's bad (rather than just annoying then) then keep working on your posture, it may well be that. Also 20 mins twice a day is a lot more than I do. Try dropping the time a bit and building up?

I got nuthin..

Cheer!

Lyssa

I would start by sitting in a chair.

RenGalskap

Hi michadelic,

This is one of those areas where it's difficult to give advice because everybody is different. It would help to have a meditation teacher because they could tell right off the bat whether you have a posture problem.

Here's a URL to a page that shows some different sitting styles. You may be able to find a style that suits you better.

http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/meditation.php

Robert Aitkin's book Taking the Path of Zen describes four stretching exercises called makkoho that many people use to deal with posture problems. Sometimes you can't get the right posture because certain parts of the back or legs are too tight. I've known a number of people who have been helped by these stretches.

I had your problem for twenty years. The problem didn't go away until I stretched to the point that I was almost doing a full split. It was only then that I was able to get into the proper posture without worrying about muscle spasms. That's an example of people being different. Most people don't have to go to that extreme. :-)

michadelic

Thanks for the replies.
In response to Kikujiro, I would say that the pain is not overwhelming, it would probably classify as annoying. I intend to keep with it. Perhaps I do simply need to build myself up more, my back muscles certainly aren't used to it any way you look at it, usually I tend to slouch. I'm kind of zealous to get the practice down though, because I'd like to visit a Zen monastery next summer for a couple months.

In response to Lyssa, I've been looking at some stuff on chair sitting. I think I'll try that too and see how it works out.

RenGalskap,
Thanks for the tips, I will look into those stretching techniques. That might help me since I don't really do any stretching beforehand. Like I said, when it comes to zazen or formal meditation instruction, I'm not having any luck finding anything in my area. But it kind of just occurred to me to check out some yoga classes. That would probably be helpful, don't you think?

Thanks.
Peace to you,
Mike

Kikujiro

michadelic wrote: »

I'm kind of zealous to get the practice down though, because I'd like to visit a Zen monastery next summer for a couple months.

I would say, that you already got it down. Thats it. But thats not the way it will always be and when it changes it won't change for good. The trick is to work with what's going down mentally and physically right now. (or the rather, the now that is during zazen)

Zazen can be uncomfortable and/or boring as hell. If you watch what's going on and do your best to just let it do what it's gonna do, then you're doing it right. Watch your mind for thoughts like "I need to work through this" or if its a good place you find "I need to stay here"

It's not the annoyance you should concern yourself with so much as what your thinking about it. It's perfectly normal to be a bit uncomfortable.

Also, you say you'd like to visit a Zen monastery next summer. I wish I could do that. But don't get caught up in aims or goals, they're thoughts just like any other. While aims are obviously understandable, try to keep in mind the idea that your doing what your doing because your doing it. Keep the process of things as the goal just as much as an end result.

When your doing zazen your goal is to do zazen, then do zazen and do zazen and so on.

Edit: But yeah, I would say to cut down to ten minutes and see how you feel. If you come out of zazen and it follows you like you've slept on a bad sofa then your prolly doing it wrong. The best bet then is to do allthat has been suggested and if that doesn't help, finding a zendo with instructers who can say "ok your backs too this or that" will be the best bet.

Double edit: Tried yoga? I used to get stuff like you before and after I did yoga it became apparent to me that when ever I was told to sit up straight I would really, really sit up straight. Like it was hard work to, muscles in my gut and back tensed to lock me straight. But you really don't need to do that. So maybe try and find some kind of relaxed straight back.

RichardH

First of all it is a good Idea to find a Sangha in your area. It seems that sitting alone cannot compare to sitting with a group. After sitting with a group for a few years sitting alone can be solid. But if you dont start with Sangha it is not likely you will go beyond your own comfort zone. Unless there is a real physiological condition that can result in harm, discomfort is part and parcel of the discipline of Zazen. It is the short sharp point.
After years of sitting I am no more comfortable today. It is only when this discomfort is joined by boredom, boredom with the idea of sitting , boredom with any special states that arise, that the real practice begins. One isnt likely to push through this without Sangha. ....ofcourse there are always exceptions

Kikujiro

Richard Herman wrote: »

Unless there is a real physiological condition that can result in harm, discomfort is part and parcel of the discipline of Zazen.

I agree, if zazen were easy then we would probably all be doing it to some extent without being told it was good. It's totally the opposite of what our minds want us to do.

not1not2

If you can't find one locally:


You may want to look into online correspondence teaching. One site I've looked into and heard good things about is http://www.wwzc.org/. It also has some decent articles/writings, one specifically about posture. Not sure if it will help, but here's a link to it:

http://www.wwzc.org/translations/ThePostureOfZazen.htm

You will probably experience some discomfort after holding this posture for a while. Stop “holding it” and just sit with it. The idea of the discomfort is much worse than the actual sensations. As you continue to practice, the body will settle into the posture, ligaments will become more flexible, tension held in the hips, thighs and calves will release, and the posture will become not only comfortable but will have a steady, joyous quality. Basic stretching exercises will be helpful in alleviating undue stress on the muscles and increasing flexibility. Sit in the posture at any opportunity: to read, listen to music, and so on.

What you're experiencing seems to be pretty standard and I also used to experience minor back discomfort as well. Shift happens :P