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So, what do you think?
Deshy
Veteran
Do you believe that we do not necessarily need jhana mindfulness to attain Nibbana. If we practice abandoning the "self concept" in day to day life and practice mindfulness that way we can attain Nibbana at some point?
Or do you believe deep meditation is a must. In deep meditation we abandon the five senses so that the mindfulness is more powerful. It is then we should direct the mind to practice vipassana.
What do you think?
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Or do you believe deep meditation is a must. In deep meditation we abandon the five senses so that the mindfulness is more powerful. It is then we should direct the mind to practice vipassana.
What do you think?
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Comments
I think you should learn (just as you are now by asking questions), experience, and do what it is that works for you. Take your time, do your best, and go from there. Be well, my friend.
I think one of the first things, IMPO, to understand about Nirvana is that it is not something we obtain (a thing to be possessed), by doing certain things. Nirvana is who we are behind all possible actions, and illusions to the contrary.
I believe that Nirvana is synonymous with Buddha Nature, and so we “Wake Up” to it, as Buddha did in the morning of our spiritual life.
Nirvana is ALWAYS right ‘Here’ and ‘Now,’ in the ‘Immediate Eternal Moment’ and therefore is not a part of what is impermanent, or finitude, (AKA not a thought).
But, the mind is dreaming our ego self, and we are buying into it, “hook, line, and sinker,” like any sleeper might naturally do. We have simply fallen into this dream.
Early symptoms of 'Waking Up' is wanting to know more and feeling dissatisfied with your present statice. Just like in the morning when you begin to roll around and notice your dreams.
Warm Regards,
S9
on practicing dry vipassana: http://www.vipassanadhura.com/jhana.html
balancing vipassana and concentration: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/onetool.html
Nirvana is a long way off and until you have perfected samadhi you are nowhere near it.
There may be different answers from different streams. Attaining Jhana to realize Nibbana may not quite line up with "seeing into ones true nature" in Zen for example.
Whether the object of absorption is.... the breath entering the nostrils and then dissolving into ever more subtle objects leading to formlessness, or the totality of bodymind/environment, at-once with absolute unwavering stability, leading to formlessness. The common feature is a single stable unwavering mind that can be sustained. Both involve direct insight into pure ownerlessness. Without this actual practice, this discipline of sustained concentration, how can you penetrate that? You cant. You can only imagine things.
I'd also like to offer this little thing: Enlightenment is an accident, practice just makes us accident prone!
Hugs
The Buddha sought wisdom in his enlightenment. Whilst he used jhana, he did not seek enlightenment to preach jhana. He preached the noble truths & the three characteristics as they way to end suffering.
These truths can be both directly realised (vipassana) and/or used as the basis of wise analytical reflection (yonisomanasikara).
So if we practice abandoning the "self concept" in day to day life, our mind will certainly "taste" Nibbana at some point, even if it is not the final Nibbana of a Buddha.
The Buddha praised the liberation of a stream-enterer, which is why a stream-enterer is considered an enlightened noble being.
If our mind becomes adept at abandoning the "self concept" and has spiritual power, jhana will come naturally.
Jhana is a product of abandoning the "self concept" and not visa-versa.
If jhana comes, it is simply the same practise, namely, abandoning the "self concept".
Kind regards
Yea I also have read texts where enlightenment has been achieved without any particular reference to jhana (not common but there are references). But then again we can never say for sure if the person in question accidently submerged into a deep samadhi experience due to practicing vipassana in day to day life and through that samadhi they got insight. From what I have read so far it seems that jhana or samadhi is required to enlightenment. Like to hear more views on this anyway
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I am talking about the final ground breaking insight. It maybe true that people practice vipassana in day to day life and practice "yonisomanasikara" to reflect on how suffering is caused because of clinging to a "ego concept" but do you think that such a practice can bring about one to "see" the truth. Don't you think the mind needs to be isolated from the five sensory indulgences before the real insight which leads to full enlightenment happen?
Yes. Jhana as far as I understand are states of letting go. You need to let go of your ego and of the "I" in deep meditation to allow the mind to submerge into jhana. However, do you think without such a jhana experience where the mind is at its peak mindfulness and has let go of the doer to the full, one can experience the real liberation?
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There is a different measure of things. In my view stable single mindedness and prajna are essential in all schools, although the approach may differ. One without the other wont do. I was told of a monk who could enter Jhana at the drop of a hat, but did not have insight. The abbott would not let him enter Jhana anymore! There are also folks with plenty of insight and understanding, who have no experiential (first hand) wisdom.
IMHO
Stream enterer has not experienced jhana.
No. Forget about jhana and just start abandoning ego, as you said you would do. Start practising unconditional awareness. Just watching, no judging.
kind regards
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You make sense to me Richard thanks a lot. This is exactly what my confusion is about because sometimes there are those who have had blissful jhana experiences but no insight and then there are those who practice vipassana and mindfulness but they cannot even tolerate a mosquito flying by the ear leave aside having some kind of an insight. Guess we need a blend of both but then again that is just my opinion.
No I am just trying to figure out where to aim at really.
Would you mind explaining to me how you do that please? I don't have a teacher so I am kind of lost
Many thanks for you help
There is no text.
The term 'once returner' is not really defined either but is means returning to the worlds, namely, the brahma worlds of bliss (jhana), which are worldly states.
We abandon sensual worldly happiness and enter into the calm and sometimes barreness of meditation. Then suddenly piti & sukkha (happiness) occur. This is 'returning' to 'the world'.
Once-returner is defined by the lessening of sensual desire & ill-will, which is the indicator of ending the five hindrances. This is the beginning of absorption.
Friend. Unconditional awareness requires watching the mind, being vigilent over it, to maintain it free of judgements, positive & negative thoughts and grasping at experience.
Whatever is experienced in meditation, it has only one purpose, which is not to be grasped at.
The mind itself is naturally unconditionally aware so we simply act as the 'gatekeeper'. This is mindfulness.
Just seeing, just hearing, just tasting, just experiencing, just allowing awareness to manifest itself clearly.
But vipassana is when the mind sees the arising & passing and true nature of the object of meditation. This really can only happen naturally from unconditional awareness. We cannot really practise vipassana.
So it is important to first settle the mind, find some samatha calmness and then refine the mind into unconditional awareness.
Unconditional awareness is samadhi. Then the natural insight that arises when the mind is clear enough is vipassana. Vipassana starts when an object of meditition appears clearly in the mind and the mind can see the characteristics, features & qualities of the object clearly.
When we practise, as you know, we must be at ease. Let the mind be in the present moment. Remain awake but 'do' little. The mind by its own nature is aware. Our vigilance or mindfulness must let that awareness naturally manifest and grow.
Kind regards
DD
I can see in your writings that you have a good deal of clear sight. But let me just question you, in a spirit of good will, if I might. : ^ )
S9: 2 questions:
(1) Are you intending to say that Nirvana is just one more accomplishment of the mind, a mind object?
(2) Do you see Nirvana as a hierarchy of some kind with different levels instead of an actual end to all such complications?
S9: If you abandon the self-concept, who has the jhana. It seems to me that you are either no self without any possessions or that you are still holding on to something and therefore not completely free of small self.
S9: How can awareness be unconditioned when you have already fallen into believing in practice as a way to get wisdom? Can’t you see the ‘catch 22’ in thinking that the mind is in charge? Practice is a mind thing, and it says that Nirvana is a product of our willing it.
Warm Regards,
S9
Yeah. I fully agree with you. From what you have said what I understand is that you believe we have to first reach a certain level of samadhi before the real insight appears in our minds. As you said insight "happens" in a still mind away from the five sensory indulgences. That is not different from what I have been saying in my previous posts.
My confusion is that some folks seem to say that if we "let go of the ego concept" during the normal day to day activities and continue this practice for some time then at some point the insight arises without any samadhi at all. That is highly unlikely from my understanding so far.
Apart from that, when I am not meditating, am I write in thinking that if I practice present moment consciousness, let go of the ego concept and as you say "take things without judgment" then am I doing it right? I am talking about the practice outside the meditation.
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S9, I'll try to explain this as I can but I am sure DD will give you a better explanation.
I think what is meant by "Abandoning the self concept" here is that in order to enter into jhana experiences the mind has to let go of the doer portion of the mind. It's like a person is no longer in control of the things that happen. But inside a jhana experience the knower portion of the mind is still present. It's not like there is noone there. One only knows but has abandoned the power to do anything. It happens in deep meditation. Until you let go of the doer you cannot enter jhana. It is this doer portion of the mind that generates most of the ego concepts so letting go of your ego is the way to enter jhana.
We don't practice to get anything. We practice to let go of things. I have noticed that unconditional awareness generates so much bliss even without any insight or any samadhi. You just let things in and out without analyzing them at all. It's comforting to say the least
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Most of our normal day-to-day activities necessitate thinking about past-present-future, the use of ego concepts (I, you, ...) and judgement. We will not be able to function without some or all of these concepts. The moment you cut-off all these concepts and practice present moment awareness, then you are automatically in some sort of meditative state. But I stand to be corrected here.....
Why do you say this? Stream enterer is quite an advanced level of practice. Almost all will have experienced jhana.
Thanks Sukhiha. You are right, present moment consciousness it is some sort of a meditation too. When I was talking about "meditation" here what I meant was when we sit on our cushion and close our eyes. I understand that the practice we do outside of that is also meditation. So I take it that what i am doing is right yeah?
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Yes..... but if you take the very same present moment awareness to your meditation cushion, you will naturally attain a much deeper present moment awareness because of the simple fact that the torrent of distractions experienced in day-to-day situations is drastically reduced.
These free meditation guides might be quite useful to understand Vipassana meditation:
What is Vipassana meditation
How to practice Vipassana meditation
BTW, much of what I'm saying here is not much different from the inputs already made in this thread.... just jumped into this thread so I can also learn along with you.
With kind regards,
Sukhita
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/shikantaza.html
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